Millers Stadium

[albie]

Well, if its standing up you want, then its the new des res for Gainsborough thats up your street;
http://www.gainsboroughstandard.co.uk/news/local-news/fans-applaud-new-stadium-proposal-1-4555763

[GM-MarkB]

I go past the site everyday with work, should be interesting to follow the progress

[donnyallday]

Yes lets blame S.Y.Police.

Nowt to do with any scousers Climbing the walls by the dozen at Leppings lane, fighting their way over the barbed wire and jumping down, whilst the police were powerless to stop them due to being outnumbered, ignoring pleas.

That clip was shown on t.v first before any tragedy had happened, never screened again tho when the truer picture unfolded.... oh the inoccent.

[dknward2]

Don't forget all the pints also consumed before the match total drunks pushing people forward and against the gates and fences oh and all the ones who turned up without tickets then tried forcing there way in

[Thinwhiteduke]

Another stadium ruined by the health and safety fanatics addicted to seats only. Welcome to zero atmosphere and high prices.

Yeah, those damn and blasted health and safety fanatics! The horrible bunch, why do they want to prevent more stadiums burning down, or people being crushed to death? These trivial matters should be sacrificed so we can all have a good sing-song!

Bradford was caused by a discarded cigarette igniting rubbish which had accumulated beneath an antiquated wooden stand that the club could not afford to replace.

Hillsborough was caused by the failure of police control.

Nowt to do with the thousands of Liverpool fans turning up ticketless, and in many cases, drunk then?

[The L J Monk]

Not this again.

Can I refer all three of you gents to the findings of the Taylor Report. Something that looked at all aspects of Hillsborough and didn't form an opinion based on a perception of pissed up Liverpool fans barging their way in.

"...although there were, other causes, the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control.\"

Of the Liverpool fans Taylor said: "...the great majority were not drunk nor even the worse for drink."

Of the number of Liverpool fans he went on to say: "the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large.

There was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40 pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G.

However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be
rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment.

Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up."

It is pathetic that 20+ years on people still roll out these ill formed opinions on the tragedy.

[PDX_Rover]

As an exile I've only been to the KMS a handful of times, yet EVERY time when I walk through the entrance to the seating area and see the pitch, I get goosebumps. It's a nice stadium. OBV was legendary but it was knackered.

[Chris Black come back]

Not this again.

Can I refer all three of you gents to the findings of the Taylor Report. Something that looked at all aspects of Hillsborough and didn't form an opinion based on a perception of pissed up Liverpool fans barging their way in.

"...although there were, other causes, the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control.\"

Of the Liverpool fans Taylor said: "...the great majority were not drunk nor even the worse for drink."

Of the number of Liverpool fans he went on to say: "the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large.

There was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40 pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G.

However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be
rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment.

Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up."

It is pathetic that 20+ years on people still roll out these ill formed opinions on the tragedy.

This is the most important post of the week. Can't believe people still believe that 96 people died for reasons other than inadequate policing and poor stadium management. Beggars belief the crap being spouted by the Sun in 1989 is still being recycled on here 23 years later.

[RoversAlias]

I do like how your reply to me LJ somehow turned the heat on you

You have a point incidentally on that original response, but personally I do prefer that all newly built/converted all-seater stadiums should remain exactly that.

[bobjimwilly]

The thing that gets me about opposition to safe standing areas, is when people try and make it out it's more dangerous to have people standing in areas designed for standing than in areas designed for seating? 

Safe standing areas, as used in Germany, have barriers to prevent people falling forwards, more space for moving passed people etc. Normal seating areas can get quite precarious when people are trying to get passed and everyone is stood up 

[Drover]

Another stadium ruined by the health and safety fanatics addicted to seats only. Welcome to zero atmosphere and high prices.

Yeah, those damn and blasted health and safety fanatics! The horrible bunch, why do they want to prevent more stadiums burning down, or people being crushed to death? These trivial matters should be sacrificed so we can all have a good sing-song!

Bradford was caused by a discarded cigarette igniting rubbish which had accumulated beneath an antiquated wooden stand that the club could not afford to replace.

Hillsborough was caused by the failure of police control.

Neither incident was caused by the existence of terracing.

But does'nt the report go on to recommend all seater stadia to prevent this ever happening again?If the Terracing was actually seating,would it have still happened?
I agree what you say about the Police and fans etc,but terracing must,if to be used,be made extra safe/strictly regulated like Bobjimwilly says exists in Germany.

[Chris Black come back]

The thing that gets me about opposition to safe standing areas, is when people try and make it out it's more dangerous to have people standing in areas designed for standing than in areas designed for seating? 

Safe standing areas, as used in Germany, have barriers to prevent people falling forwards, more space for moving passed people etc. Normal seating areas can get quite precarious when people are trying to get passed and everyone is stood up 

And the most bizarre claim altogether - there are each Saturday in the professional leagues literally thousands upon thousands of people stood on terrraces watching football. If terracing was inherently dangerous it should have banned the day after Hillsborough. Instead it has been allowed to continue for nearly a quarter of a century. Mad, bad and deluded view.

[albie]

Back to the original topic, Rotherham are limited to a 6000 capacity for the first game with Barnsley, rising to 9000 for a big club like DRFC.

Full capacity for game 3, rumoured to be Everton. Not that they will need it like, after we teach them a lesson enthusiasm will be dampened down a bit!

[donnyroversfc]

Back to the original topic, Rotherham are limited to a 6000 capacity for the first game with Barnsley, rising to 9000 for a big club like DRFC.

Full capacity for game 3, rumoured to be Everton. Not that they will need it like, after we teach them a lesson enthusiasm will be dampened down a bit!

I might have to try and go to two friendlys at the NYS then!

[Standanista]

Not this again.

Can I refer all three of you gents to the findings of the Taylor Report. Something that looked at all aspects of Hillsborough and didn't form an opinion based on a perception of pissed up Liverpool fans barging their way in.

"...although there were, other causes, the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control.\"

Of the Liverpool fans Taylor said: "...the great majority were not drunk nor even the worse for drink."

Of the number of Liverpool fans he went on to say: "the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large.

There was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40 pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G.

However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be
rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment.

Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up."

It is pathetic that 20+ years on people still roll out these ill formed opinions on the tragedy.

This is the most important post of the week. Can't believe people still believe that 96 people died for reasons other than inadequate policing and poor stadium management. Beggars belief the crap being spouted by the Sun in 1989 is still being recycled on here 23 years later.

After an earlier debate with LJ on here I went back and read the Taylor Report from front to back, plus well remember the press aftermath at the time in 1989, so I'm reasonably aware of the issues involved.  The question I would pose is this: given that Taylor's recommendations about all-seater stadia are now being questioned, has anyone gone back and questioned any of his other findings, particularly with regard to the immediate and underlying causes of the incident?  I deal with the fall-out and follow-up from a lot of similar investigation reports and judicial inquiries as part of my day job, which is in rail safety.  To give you a few examples off the top of my head - King's Cross in 1987 (Fennell), the Hatfield crash in 2000 (HMRI), and a fatal collision at Glenbrook near Sydney in 1999 (McInerney).

In each of the above cases, while many good recommendations were made, there were nonetheless some which were wide of the mark in several respects, and it was down to the industry and stakeholders therein to digest the findings and then go back to the report's originator saying why what they'd put was either wrong or wasn't a good idea.  On the other hand, along comes Taylor, and his every word seems to be taken as gospel by the great majority.  Well, unless the Taylor Report really is a one-off, that's not the nature of the beast with these things.  The very good case being put forward 20-odd years later for safe standing is just one example of where Taylor probably didn't get it right.  For me, the broad-brush acceptance and application of the Taylor Report is just as much an example of blinkered attitudes when it comes to English football as any finger pointing at "drunken Liverpool fans", and for me, the real truth probably lies somewhere between the two, i.e. there were several principal contributory factors, not just a policing failure, and, yes, including the behaviour of a significant number of fans on the day.  Taylor said: "...the great majority were not drunk nor even the worse for drink."  Well, fair enough, but how big a minority out of Liverpool's 24,256 ticket allocation, plus the ticketless fans, does it take to be a significant factor?  Taylor himself says that much of the original crowd pressure at the turnstiles, which was a key factor in later events, was as a result of Liverpool fans being turned away due to the state they were in.  Not being able to get out of the way, they thus blocked the way in through the turnstiles for everybody else.  None of that detracts from the failure by South Yorkshire Police to learn from previous incidents and implement adequate crowd control on the day as well, of course.

[donnyallday]

Then their were that wall at Heysel which a Liverpool fan leant against at it toppled over onto all those home fans . Unsafe stadium if you ask me.

[silent majority]

Standanista/others,

Of course we at the FSF know these arguments inside out, we have to if we want to progress our argument for 'safe standing' and I commend anybody who has taken the time and trouble to read the Taylor report, or should I say reports as there were two. Its true that our biggest obstacle was and still is the misreporting of newspapers like the Sun, but they did get their stories from the official channels which unfortunately were the SY Police. Don't forget though that the 'Hillsboro papers' are currently being investigated again before they are released to the public later this year, when we will get to the bottom of what happened, although of course, this has been hampered by the 'missing' Police tapes from that day.

I could write about this all day, and have contributed on numerous occasions on this forum and others, but I just want to make one or two points to add or respond to points raised. Lord Justice Taylor actually made 98 recommendations, and all seater stadia was just one of those, but usually the most recognisable. He also said that it was a duty of football and the authorities to implement changes in either technology or procedures that would ensure that future stadia and spectator safety would be improved or maintained. The argument therefore is that 'safe standing' is an advancement on what we had, therefore it should be considered and probably will be at some point. The argument over safety is, as I've stated on here many times, is not between standing or seated areas, the figures prove almost conclusively that there is no difference between these two areas, and this is acknowledged by the authorities.

You have to remember as well that when LJT announced the changes required the FA & FL objected very strongly that this wasn't necessary, hence the reason that all seater stadia only applies to the top two divisions. The other regulations around drink in stadiums has proved to be a difficulty, and congested concourse areas, people arriving late and other issues are all a consequence of a law that looks good on paper.

But, in my opinion, the reason that all this happened at Hillsboro is because good old Sheffield Council and Wednesday themselves had allowed the Safety certificate to expire despite several instances of congestion and suffocation in previous years. Add in the incompetence of the Police on the day, the lack of stewards in the right areas and the disaster was almost predictable.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Picture from the inside.....

http://360.io/jPbKh5

Not quite as good as the Keepmoat IMO.

[RedJ]

am I alone in thinking it's a bit naff?

[Rios]

Like all new stadiums it looks alright, nothing spectacular.  The corners look a bodge and the varied heights detract from the overall impact of the stadium.  Still as with Belle Vue anything would have been better than the DVS or Milmoor.

[Standanista]

Millmoor did have its charm though: I used to love seeing Rotherham get beat there.

[Jim Dobbin]

I think its probably one of the best small stadiums around. Haven't they sold around 5,000 season tickets this year? could be averaging around 6-7k in League 2.

[MrFrost]

They will average more than us.

[Jim Dobbin]

I think they're a good bet for promotion this season.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Standanista/others,

But, in my opinion, the reason that all this happened at Hillsboro is because good old Sheffield Council and Wednesday themselves had allowed the Safety certificate to expire despite several instances of congestion and suffocation in previous years. Add in the incompetence of the Police on the day, the lack of stewards in the right areas and the disaster was almost predictable.

SM. I admire your knowledge and work on this topic, although I still think you are chasing a dream - there is (in my opinion) as much chance of a Govt in the country bringing in standing terraces as there is of one giving the Falklands to Argentina.

Whatever. The main reason I'm posting is that I do want to add a note of clarity to your point above, as someone who was professionally much closer to the centre of that particular tragedy than I'd have chosen to be in an ideal world.

Your post gives the impression that there was something uniquely shoddy about the way that Sheffield Council, the club and its advisors had carried out their duties. Whilst it is undeniable that major mistakes were made, these were also being made on a regular basis at most grounds. That "Hillsborough" happened at Hillsborough was almost incidental. It was going to happen somewhere at some time because the application of the regulatory process was poorly run, and because ALL stakeholders (most definitely including the fans) had a cavalier attitude to responsibility and safety.  It could have happened anywhere, on any week. Looking back, it is terrifying how dangerous the old terraces were when they were loaded to and above capacity.