England

[Filo]

The problem we have in this Country is we play competitive football at an early age, instead of keeping it fun. What happens then is the early developers and the physically stronger players are usually picked to play because parents and coach`s want to win the league, the more technical players are discarded for brute force, and then when the better players go to academy`s at league clubs any lingering technical ability is coached out of them! As it stands at this moment, the England midfield and forward line consist of 2 or 3 plodders and a couple of fast runners, with very little technical ability. It has to change, and the way to do it is in the classroom at an early age instead of competitive leagues, get them in the classroom watching dvd`s of the best footballing teams in the world, explain the reasons why players make runs to create space for other players to run into, the problem is, it might take 10 years or so to change the culture and see any initiative like this to bare fruit!

Totally agree. Send this post to the FA.

Change is a-coming.  It may not be enough yet, and its going to take a while, but the FA have woken from their slumber.  Youth football is going through a re-haul, with a phased move to 11-a-side and competitive leagues are likely to be removed before Under 12s.  Some County FAs are taking it on board for the coming season and the rest will follow in 2013/14

It needs to be taken a step further and the county FA`s need to have academy`s to nurture and encourage the technical players, each junior association needs a technical director, responsible for picking out the very best talent in those association`s to progress to the county Fa`s academy`s and then hopefully progress to a national academy

[andysly]

It's rubbish to say we've been crap for 40 years and "6th to 8th best in Europe all that time".
We were the best team in Euro 96, and deserved to win the semi against Germany. And again in the 1990 world cup we were the better side against Germany in the semi final with only an average Argentina to beat in final.

[Filo]

It's rubbish to say we've been crap for 40 years and "6th to 8th best in Europe all that time".
We were the best team in Euro 96, and deserved to win the semi against Germany. And again in the 1990 world cup we were the better side against Germany in the semi final with only an average Argentina to beat in final.

I beg to differ, we were outplayed by Spain in the Q/F and got lucky the once in a penalty shootout, if memory serves me correct

[DonnyNoel]

It's rubbish to say we've been crap for 40 years and "6th to 8th best in Europe all that time".
We were the best team in Euro 96, and deserved to win the semi against Germany. And again in the 1990 world cup we were the better side against Germany in the semi final with only an average Argentina to beat in final.

I beg to differ, we were outplayed by Spain in the Q/F and got lucky the once in a penalty shootout, if memory serves me correct

I believe Spain had a goal incorrectly ruled out for offside as well? But I do agree we could have won that tournament and Italia 90 (but that doesnt mean I think we were the best. "Could" is the operative word)

I really enjoyed the guts we showed last night. Due to how we develop at youth level we are behind the sides in the semis and the power of the Premiership also hinders us a bit I feel - that physically demanding, attacking, barnstorming approach is great to watch but doesn't translate into international football.

This is pretty much the same debate as two years ago - we either start afresh at youth level (Germany, Italy and Spain have between 20k & 30k UEFA qualified coaches each. We have less than 3k in this country) or carry on as is and hope we drop on to a way of making international football more like the Premiership.

[River Don]

You only need look at Portugal and Holland to put England's deficiencies in perspective. Two European nations with much smaller populations who consistently achieve more than England.

I think lessons are being learned but not very quickly. It's a whole cultural change in teaching the game that is required but change is very slow.

[Mr1Croft]

You'll never have a strong England team whilst you've a strong Premiership.

Realistically, the pot to pick from for the England side is the players that play at the highest level in Europe, so Man U, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool. The squad can then be filled up with the star players from other Premier League sides This pot is diluted by the foreign talent that is coming in and taking advantage of playing in Europe for English teams.

Most positions are such that there is not the quality waiting to fill the place of the regular player, goalkeeper for example, how many English keepers are playing regularly in the Prem, let along Europe?

Years ago, Billy Sharp (for example) would likely have been playing in the Premier League, benefiting from playing against the best English players.

Time to reward teams for developing English players, and go back to limiting the number of foreigners in matchday squads. Not that it'll happen.


Totally agree that losing on pens to Italy has saved England another arse-raping by the Germans. Blessing in disguise!

How do you explain Real Madrid's success with so many foreigners in the side then? If we just had English players in the Premiership we'd be even worse. At least the foreigners can show us how to retain possession and how to pass the ball.

Because teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona have very very successful B and C teams, too many people overlook them as reserves when in truth it is much more, the Real Madrid Castilla play in the Spanish Second Division, benefiting from competitive game time (as opposed to the loan system we use), and is made up of players basically Under the age of 23, or 25 with a professional contract. They can play the best players in the world, and nuture the Spanish talent in the second division with their B team.

[Dimples-D]

I remember watching England games in the late 70's with my dad. He always used to complain that the England players couldn't pass to each other.. Nowts changed 40 years on.

A bit of homework could have come in handy for the Pirlo penalty also.. check it out ..
http://www.fcbarcelona.com/
 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Put it this way. If Carroll is in the best 2or 3 young strikers we have coming through, we ain't going to improve on 8th best in Europe any time soon.

I see Carroll as being the next generation's Peter Crouch. Good to bring on as a sub to mix things up but not a regular starter.

[donnyproletarian]

For me Rooney was off hs game but no one dare say owt wrong against him because hese the blue eyed boy (shrek with attitude|)

[RedJ]

It's rubbish to say we've been crap for 40 years and "6th to 8th best in Europe all that time".
We were the best team in Euro 96, and deserved to win the semi against Germany. And again in the 1990 world cup we were the better side against Germany in the semi final with only an average Argentina to beat in final.

I beg to differ, we were outplayed by Spain in the Q/F and got lucky the once in a penalty shootout, if memory serves me correct

Wasn't that the game sicknote blasted the ball into that massive Spanish centre half's crackers?

[NathanDRFC]

The problem we have in this Country is we play competitive football at an early age, instead of keeping it fun. What happens then is the early developers and the physically stronger players are usually picked to play because parents and coach`s want to win the league, the more technical players are discarded for brute force, and then when the better players go to academy`s at league clubs any lingering technical ability is coached out of them! As it stands at this moment, the England midfield and forward line consist of 2 or 3 plodders and a couple of fast runners, with very little technical ability. It has to change, and the way to do it is in the classroom at an early age instead of competitive leagues, get them in the classroom watching dvd`s of the best footballing teams in the world, explain the reasons why players make runs to create space for other players to run into, the problem is, it might take 10 years or so to change the culture and see any initiative like this to bare fruit!

Totally agree. Send this post to the FA.

Change is a-coming.  It may not be enough yet, and its going to take a while, but the FA have woken from their slumber.  Youth football is going through a re-haul, with a phased move to 11-a-side and competitive leagues are likely to be removed before Under 12s.  Some County FAs are taking it on board for the coming season and the rest will follow in 2013/14

The review started over 2 years a go, and as someone who has seen the presentation change and develop over that period, it is certainly the future. The FA Shareholders passed the proposals last month with 87% approval - 75% was required.

It is optional for the coming season and then a mandatory phased in process, but all Leagues in the Sheffield & Hallamshire region are taking up the option for the forthcoming season.

[JonWallsend]

The problem we have in this Country is we play competitive football at an early age, instead of keeping it fun. What happens then is the early developers and the physically stronger players are usually picked to play because parents and coach`s want to win the league, the more technical players are discarded for brute force, and then when the better players go to academy`s at league clubs any lingering technical ability is coached out of them! As it stands at this moment, the England midfield and forward line consist of 2 or 3 plodders and a couple of fast runners, with very little technical ability. It has to change, and the way to do it is in the classroom at an early age instead of competitive leagues, get them in the classroom watching dvd`s of the best footballing teams in the world, explain the reasons why players make runs to create space for other players to run into, the problem is, it might take 10 years or so to change the culture and see any initiative like this to bare fruit!

Totally agree. Send this post to the FA.

Change is a-coming.  It may not be enough yet, and its going to take a while, but the FA have woken from their slumber.  Youth football is going through a re-haul, with a phased move to 11-a-side and competitive leagues are likely to be removed before Under 12s.  Some County FAs are taking it on board for the coming season and the rest will follow in 2013/14

Totally agree and totally disagree. There is too much emphesis on winning at an early age, often to the detriment of player development, However, most parents that i know would rather see players developing, even if it means their child's team suffers defeat, perhaps they're not representative of society at large but it is my experience.

I do worry having seen a lot of junior football from under 7 through to under 18 at all levels, academies included, about the future of the game although I was greatly heartened when watching Newcastle United under 8's play by their passing style and not a reliance on the bigger, more physical, direct approach.  One particular game against Liverpool was an eye opener, however, while technically very good, Liverpool also exhibited every trick in the book- frightening at such an early age.

The changes to smaller sided games to encourage more touches etc will be of limited impact unless we can change the mentality of coaches.  If someone boots the ball at 7 a-side, why are they going to change from that approach at 5 a-side?

As for DVDs in the classroom, thats a non starter. The best way to learn is through playing the game in order to contextualise it for children- if they then ask a question or express a desire to learn about making runs into space, by all means share a relevant DVD with them, but it shouldn't be the premise of the the classroom.  At last count the teaching profession was far too busy being responsible for dealing with a plethora of societies ills, without now addressing the failings of the national game.

The way in which cricket coaching has moved on by using a thrills and spills rather than a skills and drills approach at a younger age and refining technique as players develop is a template that football could look to.

Like BST said 6th - 8th best in Europe is about right and always has been- I hope we can improve on it but it wont be easy.

[RedJ]

http://www.wsc.co.uk/forum-index/35-euro-2012/682682-euro-2012-match-report-england-v-italy Thought some of you might appreciate this.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Andysly.
Euro 96: With home advantage, we won a grand total of two games out of five.

WC 90: Yes we had a heart-stirring performance against Germany, but before that we were dire plodders. Out played for large parts by Cameroon. Struggling against Egypt and Ireland.

And those are the two highlights of the last 46 years! That fact alone emphasises just how poor we are. Every other country that sees itself as a major football nation has won a tournament or more in that time. The obvious conclusion is that we are not a major footballing nation. The rest of the world sees us as hard working, plucky, limited triers. They don't see us as genuine contenders for titles.

Since winning the World Cup we have won TWO knockout games at major finals (Paraguay in 86, Belgium in 90). We have NEVER won a knockout match in the finals of the European Championship. Of the last 11 European Championships, we've failed to qualify for the finals 5 times, got knocked out in the group stages 4 times and qualified for the knockout stages twice.

It is laughable for us to consider ourselves a major football power with a record like that.

[River Don]

Another startling fact is that England has a slightly larger population than Argentina! Look how they have got on over the last 40 years. We have a similar population size to Italy or France.

Football is a national obsession here and yet our results are woeful compared with similar sized footballing nations.

It just shows how wrong we're getting it and yet many still believe we're just unlucky. Notably David Davies who often says "one day we'll get lucky

[NathanDRFC]

You can view the Bessacarr FC coaching development plan here -> http://bessacarrfc.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=827:coaching-development-plan&catid=49:player-development

[JonWallsend]

Andysly.
Euro 96: With home advantage, we won a grand total of two games out of five.

WC 90: Yes we had a heart-stirring performance against Germany, but before that we were dire plodders. Out played for large parts by Cameroon. Struggling against Egypt and Ireland.

And those are the two highlights of the last 46 years! That fact alone emphasises just how poor we are. Every other country that sees itself as a major football nation has won a tournament or more in that time. The obvious conclusion is that we are not a major footballing nation. The rest of the world sees us as hard working, plucky, limited triers. They don't see us as genuine contenders for titles.

Since winning the World Cup we have won TWO knockout games at major finals (Paraguay in 86, Belgium in 90). We have NEVER won a knockout match in the finals of the European Championship. Of the last 11 European Championships, we've failed to qualify for the finals 5 times, got knocked out in the group stages 4 times and qualified for the knockout stages twice.

It is laughable for us to consider ourselves a major football power with a record like that.

Bit harsh, Billy. We did for Cameroon in 90, admittedly unconvincingly in extra time, and enjoyed a positive stroll against the Danes in 2002. Still, can't argue with the overall premise of your post.

[River Don]

You can view the Bessacarr FC coaching development plan here -> http://bessacarrfc.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=827:coaching-development-plan&catid=49:player-development

This might interest you Nathan.

http://www.skautingtimdif.rs/biblioteka_analize/Technical%20Analysis.pdf

[BillyStubbsTears]

Jon.

You're right of course. I forgot about those two cases. As you say, it hardly changes the thrust of the argument. 1 knockout win in the last 22 years and four knock out wins in 46 years rather than 2. And of those, only Belgium were remotely close to being a really good quality international side at the time (and even then, they were well on the slide after their decent era in the 80s). 

[The L J Monk]

BST - We also smashed the mighty Ecuador in the second round in 2006.

Quite a list we're putting together now...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye. Well. Apart from Ecuador an all.

Been a busy week. What do expect? Perfection?