England

[BobG]

The Germans are downright irritating. They can be as crap as anything - yet they still play footy like they've been blessed by the Gods. You're dead right of course: they have just about always been the most supremely well organised side in the world. And they never give up. Two things that go a long way. Couple that with some excessively talented players and you can see why they win things.

Klinsmann played in the 90's by the way. So did Lothar Matthaus so I'm still not so sure of your argument....

And purely personally, I used to positively loathe Karl-Heinz Rumenigge. A great big unwieldy oaf of a man he looked. Yet he never bloody stopped scoring goals. But even he has to play second fiddle to the absolutely unique Gerd Muller. He was a real prodigy.

Bob

[NickDRFC]

Although I think we are making strides In terms of picking a team rather than cramming in individuals I think that's more to do with the lack of talent available now than anything else. There's still that bias there unfortunately with selection as well. How does Phil Jones, a centre half who's gone backwards if anything since he moved to Man U, start ahead of Nathaniel Clyne who has had the season of his life and is a natural full back? Yet if Clyne moves to Liverpool or Man U you can bet your bottom dollar he'd be in that starting line up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos

Sammer
Klose
Neuer & Kahn
Schweinsteiger
Mueller
Lahm

There's seven players off the top of my head that have played for Germany in the past 20 years who would have walked into any England team in history.

I challenge you to come up with one England player of the past 20 years of whom you can say the same.

And THAT is the fundamental problem. it's not that we can't accommodate the geniuses that we produce into a national side. It's that we simply do not produce enough high quality players in England.

Nothing more, nothing less.

We produce players who suggest that they have  potential to be a star, but who fizzle out and evaporate. Or they are lauded domestically and are found out at the top level.

We've been talking about how Wilshere has potential. Thomas Mueller is only two years older than him. But he's already won a World Cup and was instrumental in the team that humiliated England in 2010 (when he was just 20 years old). Put England against Germany next June and who do you think will dominate the match?

[Sammy Chung was King]

Wilshere has plenty of talent, but every injury he get's it sets him back a bit more, he comes back looks fresh as a daisy, then get's done in another innocuous challenge then he is out for another six months.
In my opinion he has done nothing to deserve being mentioned on the same page as the legends some of you talk about, not because the ability isn't there but the injuries and maybe a lack of dedication to the game, mean he hasn't produced consistently.

The England manager wastes him where he is played, he hasn't got the discipline to play the holding role, he is naturally inclined to follow the ball forward, against the top teams he will be found out.
I always compare him and Ramsey, for me Wilshere can do things with the ball Ramsey can't, Wilshere is the better allround player, but all that being said Ramsey is the more effective player of the two, better finisher, stamina he maintains his threat in a game for longer.

[BobG]

Lol. That sounds like having your cake and eating it too Sammy.

BobG

[Sammy Chung was King]

Lol. That sounds like having your cake and eating it too Sammy.

BobG

Almost like a politicians answer , i love watching how Wilshere glides over the pitch, almost effortless but i am disappointed that he seems too satisfied, there appears no hunger.
With Ramsey i sense him trying to get the best from himself every game, both could play in any top team, world class? not for me but top international players they are in the rung just below the very best.

[dickos1]

Dickos

Sammer
Klose
Neuer & Kahn
Schweinsteiger
Mueller
Lahm

There's seven players off the top of my head that have played for Germany in the past 20 years who would have walked into any England team in history.

I challenge you to come up with one England player of the past 20 years of whom you can say the same.

And THAT is the fundamental problem. it's not that we can't accommodate the geniuses that we produce into a national side. It's that we simply do not produce enough high quality players in England.

Nothing more, nothing less.

We produce players who suggest that they have  potential to be a star, but who fizzle out and evaporate. Or they are lauded domestically and are found out at the top level.

We've been talking about how Wilshere has potential. Thomas Mueller is only two years older than him. But he's already won a World Cup and was instrumental in the team that humiliated England in 2010 (when he was just 20 years old). Put England against Germany next June and who do you think will dominate the match?

Terry
Ferdinand
Cole
Scholes
Gerrard
Lampard
Rooney
Shearer

All would've got in the German side of 94, 98, even 2002 their goalie got player of the tournament after almost single handedly getting them to the final.

[NickDRFC]

Even though I haven't agreed with everything Billy has said, he did say that those listed would have got into any England side in history. I'm not sure either keeper would have dislodged Banks, and not sure Klose would be in any England team ever, but it's hard to argue against the rest of them. If anything you've backed up his point by saying these players would have got into the weakest Germany teams only. If you look at their side this year I reckon only one of the CBs (at their peak) and possibly Scholes would have made their first XI.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos

I said that the German players I listed would have got into any England team in history.

Everyone of those German players I listed is/was better than their direct equivalents of any England team of the past 40 years.


You're listing a bunch of England players who might have got into the German side when it was at it's very worst.

[dickos1]

Yep apologies, misread the point,
I still believe terry cole scholes Gerarrd and Rooney would get into any German side in last 20 years

[BillyStubbsTears]

Beat me to it Nick

It's actually impossible to say whether players from today are objectively better than players from 40-50 years ago because the standards today are so very much higher. Put Manuel Neuer in the 1966 World Cup side and Gordon Banks would have looked like a quadriplegic by comparison. The fairer test is to consider what a player's ability is like compared to the standards of the day. By that comparison, Neuer is surely at least on a par with Banks. Neuer is by a mile the best keeper in the world at the moment just as Banks was in 66.

We'll have to disagree on Klose. He's scored goals at exactly the same rate as Gary Lineker, but done so over a career that has been 50% longer. He never looks flash but he is the finest poacher of the past 40 years, since Gerd Mueller (another one who would get into any England team in history).

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos

Ahem...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IG9pkZaQ8NU

Terry, Cole, Rooney and Gerrard at the height of their careers. None of them would have got in that German team that day, never mind any German side of the past 20 years.

[DaveDRFC]

Could have been a very different game that day had Lampard's goal actually been given to make it 2-2. Not entirely sure why you feel it is so important to repeatedly say how bad England are, what's wrong with just supporting them? You keep on pointing out that the qualifying group is poor, but England are currently the only expected favourite (other than Portugal) to be top of their group, surely if it's so easy all the other top countries should be walking their groups too (even though they will all qualify, pretty much impossible not to with the new 24 team format).

[dickos1]

Billy

Ahem......

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Germany_v_England_football_match

Kahn
Klose

Wouldn't have got anywhere near the England side that day...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dave

It's a hamster wheel. We frequently do quite well in qualifying and we tell ourselves that THIS time, more than any other time, THIS time, we'll get it right.

And then the Finals come along...

I'd love England to do well. I'm just the grumpy old f**ker who has seen this story line pan out year after year and I am astonished that we keep falling for it and convincing ourselves that (by the very best standards) moderately talented players have the ability to take on the world.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos.

Yep. Worst period for German football in its history. They were dreadful in 2001-02.

And what did they do? They invested in coaching and youth development and they produced Lahm, Neuer, Schweinsteiger, Mueller, Gotze, Ozil, Kroos, Reus, Hummels, Boateng.

We, by contrast, invested in Wembley Stadium and we produced Glenn Johnson.

By the way, that England generation who destroyed the dreadful German side back in 2001. What did it go on to do? WC QFs in 2002 and 2006. EC QFs in 2004 and failed to qualify in 2008. And THAT was the best side that we've had in the past 25 years.

[dickos1]

Billy 8 months later they were in the World Cup final...
Not sure how they were dreadful in 2002 but reached the World Cup final..
I agree, about England failing but that's down to piss poor managers which was my original point..
We've had the players over the years but haven't had good enough managers to sort them out

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos.

You said it yourself. It was an awful WC and they had possibly the easiest route to a Final that any country has ever had.

If England had played Ireland, Saudi Arabia, Cameroon, Paraguay, USA and South Korea, even I would have had a few bob on us getting to the final.

[dickos1]

I agree but you can't describe reaching the World Cup final as the worst period in their history.
Also during this period nobody else were going to Munich and spanking them Like we did.
All I'm saying is, with a decent manager between 2000 and 2006 we would have achieved so much more with a decent manager
We got to the quarters then in-spite of the. Managers not because of

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos

I've given my two-pennorth on the manager issue before.

We have tried EVERY sort of manager in the past 40 years. Home grown. Foreign with excellent club records. Disciplinarians. Players' friends. Silky football aesthetes. Lumpen long-ball merchants.

We've been second rate on average under all of them. Sometimes we've been a bit better than second rate. Sometimes a lot worse. But I fail to see how you can point the finger at the manager. To me it's obvious. The one consistent theme is that all of these managers have had to deal with the players that the English system has produced. And time after time, these players have been found wanting at the very highest level.

[BobG]

And now the good old FA have spent countless millions on that white elephant in Burton on Trent. I'm not disputing the fact that we need somewhere. Just like I don't dispute we needed a stadium somewhere. I do dispute the order of the FA's priorities though. Showmanship, razzle dazzle and expensively mortgaged white elephants rather than what footy is actually supposed to be about. We will, probably, get a decent player of two out of Burton eventually. But what will be the opportunity cost of all that money chucked down the loo in pursuit of myopic grandiloquence?

Cheers

BobG

[GazLaz]

What do we need them Bob? Is there a correlation between money spent on coaching etc and success at international level? Possibly, I'm not sure Brazil spend too much on it though.

[silent majority]

Why would you suggest its a white elephant Bob?

[dickos1]

Dickos

I've given my two-pennorth on the manager issue before.

We have tried EVERY sort of manager in the past 40 years. Home grown. Foreign with excellent club records. Disciplinarians. Players' friends. Silky football aesthetes. Lumpen long-ball merchants.

We've been second rate on average under all of them. Sometimes we've been a bit better than second rate. Sometimes a lot worse. But I fail to see how you can point the finger at the manager. To me it's obvious. The one consistent theme is that all of these managers have had to deal with the players that the English system has produced. And time after time, these players have been found wanting at the very highest level.

Maybe over a 40 year period but over the 6 years I mentioned we did produce players that were good enough, terry, Ferdinand, cole, lampard, Owen, beckham, rooney, Gerarrd, scholes, were all good enough but we were managed poorly during that period.
If we'd of had a mourinho or a ferguson or a wenger instead of Sven over the same period, in my opinion we'd have won something

[BobG]

It's a great stadium, a geeat training place - but did we REALLY need to spend quite soo much money on buildings when there is clearly a long term, continuing and huge need to improve the coaches, the coaching and the approach? No problem with spending for decent facilities - but I do have a problem spending for huge great monuments to peoples egos at the expense of what, actually, is important.

BobG

[Sammy Chung was King]

Cahill can't defend, Jagielka everybody knows he isn't good enough, Smalling indecisive, to do well in a world cup or euro championship you have to be at least hard to beat, we can't achieve anything with that defence.
We have players who are good going forward but without a defence it amounts to nothing, it could be embarrassing if we face Germany for example.