...Who are they?

[nice one rovers]

Well, if things stay as they are,looks like we'll be playing in a lower league than Accrington Stanley!
Our players should have been drinking more milk.

[eastender]

And 2 leagues lower than Burton , may be they should drink more beer.

[hoolahoop]

What the hell is up with all of you we don't have any divine right to be above any other club or in any one Division.

In the last 65 years we have spent 50% of our time at Tier 4 level......it's not uncommon and only 11 seasons at Tier2  level. Get over it

[The Red Baron]

Your posting made me go and look at the L2 table (I suppose I'd better get used to the idea) and I realise that indeed Accrington Stanley are in the final automatic promotion slot.

I suppose the fact that they are out performing clubs like Plymouth, Portsmouth and Luton, all with substantially larger fanbases and (presumably) playing budgets says something about the recipe for success at this level.

I think you can throw Northampton into that argument as well. They were on their arse earlier in the season, unable to pay wages and within an ace of going into administration. Yet they've won the League by a country mile.

[Bentley Bullet]

That might be true Hoola, but the question has to be why?

We are a very big town that had massive potential to achieve top flight status 60 odd years ago, we had very decent support and had a manager in charge (Peter Doherty) who was determined to take the club to the top. He was succeeding, until our then board, led by Hubert Bates decided that they didn't share Doherty's ambition....... Doherty left, and the club returned to 'where they belonged', in the fourth division. They remained there, apart from a couple of times when they won promotion to division 3, only to soon return to 'where they belonged'.

To sum up the situation over the last ten years or so, and to quote Neil Diamond in one of his songs, "apart from the names and a few other changes, the story's the same one".

[The Red Baron]

I don't think you can compare Hubert Bates to the present owners. I accept that the rumours that Bates lined his pockets at the expense of the club are just that. However I think you can be pretty certain he never put substantial sums into the club, whether as loans or equity purchases.

In many ways Bates did what the current owners are criticized for not doing: He meddled. He caused three managers to resign over interference and he presided over the most rapid turnover of managers in the club's history. If the current guys are open to any criticism it is that they have been too loyal to failing managers.

[Bentley Bullet]

I'm comparing Bates to the present owners in lack of ambition, not lack of honesty.

[The Red Baron]

I'm not sure he was unambitious, though. If he was, he wouldn't have kept sacking managers or falling out with them. I think he was a bit of a control freak who liked the idea of basking in reflected glory. That's the way I can best understand his actions.

I also don't know how you can call the current owners unambitious. They have a vision of a sustainable club, which is pretty ambitious to me. Maybe where they fall down is not having the right people in place to deliver that vision, particularly on the football side.

[Bentley Bullet]

I know it's not my money before you tell me, but in my opinion striving for sustainability isn't being ambitious. Ambition is what keeps existing fans coming, and new fans joining. It has a goal, an objective, a purpose, a mission, a desire, a dream.

Sustainability is fine if it has enough customers to keep it sustainable. if the customers aren't happy they will go away and the quality of the product will have to be reduced in order to be sustainable again. This can go on until there's no point in achieving sustainability for something that's not worth sustaining.

It's not all about us on here, we won't get any more fans by trying to convince each other to be good, appreciative fans. That is just preaching to the already converted who are already daft enough to keep going.

The discussion should be about the reasons why fans stop going, and why new fans aren't coming.

I've expressed my opinion of this in the first two paragraphs of this post.

[acko]

Hubert Bates never owned the club,he was the chairman when the board had about 12 directors.i agree he didn't have the same ambition as peter Doherty but money was spent on the team plus there was a little gem in the name of alick,we also at that time produced or by good scouting made money out of players being sold,Thats what we don't have now although I grant times have changed.

[the vicar]

Liam Wakefield could be playing in a higher league than us then lol

[Sammy Chung was King]

I think at the minute, a lot are like me trying to adjust to the situation. It seems to have just landed on the doorstep like a gas bill you forgot to pay!.
 Every week you get your hopes up, and mostly it's worse than the previous game. Then i lose my rag all common sense goes out of the window, and the only one i haven't blamed is Richardson.
 I personally need to learn to bite my tongue a bit, and accept the situation, it's just my personality in that i look for reasons, and try and find a solution, when sometimes things are just out of you're control!.

[Sad-Rovers]

It could be worse, you could be Stockport County.

"You" not "We".

Telling.

[hoolahoop]

That might be true Hoola, but the question has to be why?

We are a very big town that had massive potential to achieve top flight status 60 odd years ago, we had very decent support and had a manager in charge (Peter Doherty) who was determined to take the club to the top. He was succeeding, until our then board, led by Hubert Bates decided that they didn't share Doherty's ambition....... Doherty left, and the club returned to 'where they belonged', in the fourth division. They remained there, apart from a couple of times when they won promotion to division 3, only to soon return to 'where they belonged'.

To sum up the situation over the last ten years or so, and to quote Neil Diamond in one of his songs, "apart from the names and a few other changes, the story's the same one".

True BB and , like you, I'm aware of our history . I wonder what REALLY happened to Doherty's dream all those years ago.
We know that Doherty wanted some more financial support from Bates' board of directors and many who don't know our history will be surprised to hear that Doherty didn't think he could sustain our club at Tier 2 or get to the the Div.1 without average crowds in excess of 30, 000. Yes some of you may have thought you misread that figure but that's what he felt was needed then,!
Change the owners and the amounts and we have a recurring theme.

[Yorkiered]

Unfortunately if you look back over the years we have always been the poor relations of most of the South Yorkshire clubs. That is why so many football fans travel from Doncaster to watch the two Sheffield clubs.
It also explains why there are so many donny whites as well.
Had we managed to stay in the Championship for any period of time we may have been able to increase that fan base but I regret its back to the workhouse and knowing our place for a good few years to come.

[The Red Baron]

That might be true Hoola, but the question has to be why?

We are a very big town that had massive potential to achieve top flight status 60 odd years ago, we had very decent support and had a manager in charge (Peter Doherty) who was determined to take the club to the top. He was succeeding, until our then board, led by Hubert Bates decided that they didn't share Doherty's ambition....... Doherty left, and the club returned to 'where they belonged', in the fourth division. They remained there, apart from a couple of times when they won promotion to division 3, only to soon return to 'where they belonged'.

To sum up the situation over the last ten years or so, and to quote Neil Diamond in one of his songs, "apart from the names and a few other changes, the story's the same one".

True BB and , like you, I'm aware of our history . I wonder what REALLY happened to Doherty's dream all those years ago.
We know that Doherty wanted some more financial support from Bates' board of directors and many who don't know our history will be surprised to hear that Doherty didn't think he could sustain our club at Tier 2 or get to the the Div.1 without average crowds in excess of 30, 000. Yes some of you may have thought you misread that figure but that's what he felt was needed then,!
Change the owners and the amounts and we have a recurring theme.

Unfortunately the crowds fell throughout Doherty's reign. That wasn't his fault, or the Board's, just that by the end of the 1950s the post-war boom in football attendances was running out of steam.

[idler]

The big chance missed was after the 65/66 promotion. We should have built a foundation there that might have sent us to the old 2nd division 50 years earlier. The gaps between weren't as wide then either.

[i_ateallthepies]

I think at the minute, a lot are like me trying to adjust to the situation. It seems to have just landed on the doorstep like a gas bill you forgot to pay!.
 Every week you get your hopes up, and mostly it's worse than the previous game. Then i lose my rag all common sense goes out of the window, and the only one i haven't blamed is Richardson.
 I personally need to learn to bite my tongue a bit, and accept the situation, it's just my personality in that i look for reasons, and try and find a solution, when sometimes things are just out of you're control!.

Only for those who've been walking around with their eyes tight shut for the last three months Sammy.  I guess that sounds a bit like an 'I told you so' jibe, sorry.

[Sad-Rovers]

It could be worse, you could be Stockport County.

"You" not "We".

Telling.

Is it?

Yes.

[hoolahoop]

That's because Rigo was a fan for a while not a supporter . There is a difference and just where did it all change ? Yes I know Rigo you went to Dover or some such place whilst in the Conference.

Come back we forgive you .....lol

[hoolahoop]

Are you doing an editorial on us , is that why you are back perhaps ?