The EFL has failed clubs

[wing commander]

The EFL have a lot to answer for as far as I'm concerned..They have been given enough financial informationa bout all the leagues over the last few years that told them this was going to happen and they have done nothing...

1,The fit and proper tests are simply not fit for purpose

2,The penalty's for the financial fair play don't discourage teams from breaking the rules as the benefits can outstrip the risk,especially in the Championship

3,Why were Bolton and Bury treated so differently at the start of the season when both were in the same position???

4,Why did the EFL throw all their eggs in one basket last week with regard giving exclusivety to one preferred bidder for Bury when other party's were interested.

While Bury have gone because of severe financial mismanagement by the previous owner and a failure to do due diligence on the debt by the current owner combined with financial institutions who have 130% interest on the clubs assets refusing to compromise..The EFL have nearly as much culpability for failing to act and sitting on there hands over the last few years then showing incompetence as this scenario played out...

  Already it's washing it's hands of any responsibility by calling for investigations into the financial mismanagement of Bury,when in reality it needs to be doing a boots and braces investigation into itself...

[graingrover]

Perhaps it needs a general review at government level because the issues you correctly identify are prevalent also at Premiership level ...remembering the Blackpool situation which stemmed from  lack of oversight at Premiership level in the first instance .I also have a  suggestion to put to the EFL .Insist to the Premiership that the money they put into parachute payments be paid to the EFL as a RIGHT OF  RE ENTRY into the EFL of relegated Premiership clubs.The EFL could use that money to the benefit of all EFL clubs and level out the playing field with the same stroke.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

There has to be something that they can do regulatory to stem this.  They need to be stronger on clubs that overspend substantially, we've seen Bury fail but we also have seen others get lucky because they succeeded not because they were responsible or sustainable.  We must remember that we were outbid by teams like Bury not that long ago for players with money they never could succeed with.  A Bury fan I worked with previously said 2-3 years ago that it would all end in tears as the club cannot sustain that spending - she was right.

There's a few things that can be done though and someone must be more radical;

1. Salary caps - strengthen this and the budgets are controlled, however the downsides are playing fields are not level, it needs it to be done everywhere and there are legality questions I would imagine.  However, you can't argue that both Bolton and Bury have spent within their means, they simply have spent too much on players, if they can't afford it, they get the players they can afford even if that means losing most weeks.

2. Stronger spend controls on clubs with more points deductions, more EFL control and much tighter legislation on what levels of funding are permitted, discounted etc.

3. Prevention of loss making clubs - put things in to place that mean clubs are not permitted to build debts and if they build debts in one year are then subject to much tighter forward reductions.

4. Fan ownership - make it mandatory for fans to have a say in clubs.

5. Independent review of financial positions in clubs.  Essentially an internal football audit run by a special commission.

6. Overhaul of the owners tests, if there is to be continuation of owners running clubs at losses then allow them to do so but with cash upfront and placed in a bond subject to agreements, that way if there are guaranteed future losses, the cash has to be there upfront in a bond held by an independent party.

7. Big change in funding through the leagues.  It is clearly at too low a level in lower leagues, but increase the funding through the whole pyramid, run spend caps alongside it and the whole thing becomes much tighter and much more even.  Also be radical whilst at it, cap ticket prices, put limits on owner funding and make spending much more streamlined throughout.  It shouldn't be so hard!

There are loads of options, will they push any through?  Probably not.  Whilst ever even 1 club is successful by gambling financially then the position won't be cured, it has to stop for all.  It is already bubbling in the Championship.  Someone like Leeds, Wednesday etc will hit the rocks soon as they sell off all assets, fail and then have owners who can't fund clubs anymore, it will bust eventually and this is the start of it.

[Dr Fundlekrotch]

I've said for a long time that there is a lot to be said for the French system - in the close season, each club goes to the DNCG for a day and their budgets, plans and forecasts are studied in detail and the DNCG decides what happens next.

An example would be a team that wins Ligue 2, but presents a budget that the DNCG say cannot sustain a season in Ligue1, so they don't get promoted.  There have been occasional cases where a team that finished in a promotion spot actually got relegated, but everybody gets through the season and nobody goes bust during the season

[ss1953]

I think the biggest issue we face in Football is the greed of the Premier League. They pay unaffordable wages that cannot be sustained in the longer term, leading to debt ridden clubs that think the TV money will continue to roll in.

But more importantly they do not think they are part of the whole football pyramid, as they keep so much of the TV money, whilst killing the lower leagues by televising a match, virtually every day.

The EFL just pick up the scraps from their masters table, and dream that they might get a seat there one day.

I’ve mainly stopped watching the premier league and the European Cup And only use Sky to see if a Rovers game is on. (Although the cricket, golf, and rugby are also pretty good!)

We are all in the English football pyramid, and the elite clubs cannot think that they don’t need us. Rangers and Celtic got a bit big headed about a decade ago. They threatened to leave the Scottish league. The other clubs said carry on, you can play 32 games against each other for the your season.

A small downturn in overseas TV money will implode the English premier league, leading to a collapse of the whole English league system.

As greed is a primal human motivator, I cannot really offer any solutions, apart from joining the USSR!

[DonnyBazR0ver]

The EFL is not to blame. Its the irresponsible owners however, these cases show there is need to review checks and balances. Prevention is always better than cure.

[bedale rover]

I've said for a long time that there is a lot to be said for the French system - in the close season, each club goes to the DNCG for a day and their budgets, plans and forecasts are studied in detail and the DNCG decides what happens next.

An example would be a team that wins Ligue 2, but presents a budget that the DNCG say cannot sustain a season in Ligue1, so they don't get promoted.  There have been occasional cases where a team that finished in a promotion spot actually got relegated, but everybody gets through the season and nobody goes bust during the season

Doesn't the German football federation do the same?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I've said for a long time that there is a lot to be said for the French system - in the close season, each club goes to the DNCG for a day and their budgets, plans and forecasts are studied in detail and the DNCG decides what happens next.

An example would be a team that wins Ligue 2, but presents a budget that the DNCG say cannot sustain a season in Ligue1, so they don't get promoted.  There have been occasional cases where a team that finished in a promotion spot actually got relegated, but everybody gets through the season and nobody goes bust during the season

There is some merit in it, however that is open to far too much manipulation and surely hugely damaging to clubs like us?

[Move DRFC]

The EFL is not to blame. Its the irresponsible owners however, these cases show there is need to review checks and balances. Prevention is always better than cure.

The EFL allowed a bloke who has been involved in 41 companies to have liquidated, has no interest in football, never visited Bury and didn't even know Bury had a football team to become the owner of Bury.

Yes the owner of course is to blame as well but so are the EFL for allowing this clown to take charge.

[Bollinger]

I've said for a long time that there is a lot to be said for the French system - in the close season, each club goes to the DNCG for a day and their budgets, plans and forecasts are studied in detail and the DNCG decides what happens next.

An example would be a team that wins Ligue 2, but presents a budget that the DNCG say cannot sustain a season in Ligue1, so they don't get promoted.  There have been occasional cases where a team that finished in a promotion spot actually got relegated, but everybody gets through the season and nobody goes bust during the season

On the face of it there seems to be a lot of merit in that (and if it is similar to the German model, as someone has said, it would have added weight as there seems to be a lot of good in the way German clubs are owned, protected and financed).

Having said that I wouldn't trust the EFL to oversee it. I know it was under the FA's jurisdiction but it was obvious they were going to do everything they possibly could to make sure the Belles weren't going to appear in their shiny new Super League and you can just see the EFL being equally protective of the Championship.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The EFL is not to blame. Its the irresponsible owners however, these cases show there is need to review checks and balances. Prevention is always better than cure.

The EFL allowed a bloke who has been involved in 41 companies to have liquidated, has no interest in football, never visited Bury and didn't even know Bury had a football team to become the owner of Bury.

Yes the owner of course is to blame as well but so are the EFL for allowing this clown to take charge.

Should they have let Bury go to the wall then instead of now then?

[Move DRFC]

The EFL is not to blame. Its the irresponsible owners however, these cases show there is need to review checks and balances. Prevention is always better than cure.

The EFL allowed a bloke who has been involved in 41 companies to have liquidated, has no interest in football, never visited Bury and didn't even know Bury had a football team to become the owner of Bury.

Yes the owner of course is to blame as well but so are the EFL for allowing this clown to take charge.

Should they have let Bury go to the wall then instead of now then?

They had the responsibility to ensure that someone 'fit and proper' ran the club. They shouldn't have allowed him to take charge as he clearly wasn't fit and proper. Someone else would have come in for a bid at the time.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The EFL is not to blame. Its the irresponsible owners however, these cases show there is need to review checks and balances. Prevention is always better than cure.

The EFL allowed a bloke who has been involved in 41 companies to have liquidated, has no interest in football, never visited Bury and didn't even know Bury had a football team to become the owner of Bury.

Yes the owner of course is to blame as well but so are the EFL for allowing this clown to take charge.

Should they have let Bury go to the wall then instead of now then?

They had the responsibility to ensure that someone 'fit and proper' ran the club. They shouldn't have allowed him to take charge as he clearly wasn't fit and proper. Someone else would have come in for a bid at the time.

Like they have now, eh?

[RobTheRover]

It's the Owners and Directors test now, and the EFL are only really bothered with whether the club can fund a full season and complete it's matches.

Dale must have given those assurances last year and reneged on meeting them.

As a minimum, clubs have to submit their budget to the league before receiving their golden share  but how much scrutiny that gets is a question I can't answer.

[wing commander]

The EFL is not to blame. Its the irresponsible owners however, these cases show there is need to review checks and balances. Prevention is always better than cure.

The actual number is 43 companies he has liquidated...Those in business know the routine,these people actively look for failing businesses,mainly from a receiver..They buy them for a song,satisfy their legal requiremenents,transfer the assets into a separate company then close them down...On the face of it they look like failed businessmen but they are the opposite..

   How the hell can somebody like that pass the fit and proper person test is beyond me,you didn't have to be Sherlock homes to work this one out...The posh chairman was on the radio a couple of night ago stating that when he brought joint owners and investment into the club..The level of information they had to provide was incredible along with a face to face meeting with the fl before they would sanction it...

  That cant have happened in this case,while you can say Bury would have folded earlier without Dale buying them in the first place I don't believe that to be true...The assets available now would be a lot more then,the debt while big would be a lot smaller and more attractive for a last minute deal...

[silent majority]

It's the Owners and Directors test now, and the EFL are only really bothered with whether the club can fund a full season and complete it's matches.

Dale must have given those assurances last year and reneged on meeting them.

As a minimum, clubs have to submit their budget to the league before receiving their golden share  but how much scrutiny that gets is a question I can't answer.

And on a regular basis throughout the season Rob.

[since-1969]

All EFL clubs should be run as though they were franchises. Then if they are in trouble or not managed within the franchise rules it then should be passed into special measures to over see the club and the franchise sold on if the present owner is unable to continue without causing disruption to the club and it’s paying supporters . 

 Owning a football club has to come with responsibilities and one of them should be to its customers, without which there wouldn’t be a club . Each club should be rated like restaurants or hotels . Based on their value and presentation.

 No one person should be allowed to own a club outright until they have a proven track record . When you buy a club part of it’s ownership should be either with a supporters trust or the EFL it’s self and only after the club has shown that it can fully manage its affairs , should any ownership be 100%.

[wing commander]

It's the Owners and Directors test now, and the EFL are only really bothered with whether the club can fund a full season and complete it's matches.

Dale must have given those assurances last year and reneged on meeting them.

As a minimum, clubs have to submit their budget to the league before receiving their golden share  but how much scrutiny that gets is a question I can't answer.

And on a regular basis throughout the season Rob.

The question still remains how he passed it in the first place...

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I think the biggest issue we face in Football is the greed of the Premier League. They pay unaffordable wages that cannot be sustained in the longer term, leading to debt ridden clubs that think the TV money will continue to roll in.

But more importantly they do not think they are part of the whole football pyramid, as they keep so much of the TV money, whilst killing the lower leagues by televising a match, virtually every day.

The EFL just pick up the scraps from their masters table, and dream that they might get a seat there one day.

I’ve mainly stopped watching the premier league and the European Cup And only use Sky to see if a Rovers game is on. (Although the cricket, golf, and rugby are also pretty good!)

We are all in the English football pyramid, and the elite clubs cannot think that they don’t need us. Rangers and Celtic got a bit big headed about a decade ago. They threatened to leave the Scottish league. The other clubs said carry on, you can play 32 games against each other for the your season.

A small downturn in overseas TV money will implode the English premier league, leading to a collapse of the whole English league system.

As greed is a primal human motivator, I cannot really offer any solutions, apart from joining the USSR!

I think we're getting down to the root problems.

With the Bury and Bolton issues, all we hear is it's a shame for the fans who have lost their club.

The trouble is, over a period of time since the inception of the Premier League, the Sky TV deal etc, football has gradually been taken away from true fans to the extent that Income from attendances and basic marketing in the communities has become insignificant.

If the income from true fans was made more significant in terms of determining what can be spent on players then wouldn't that be more relevant, prudent and nearer a more level playing field.

The media, the global sponsors, the foreign ownership are all factors contributing to making fans less significant.

What if clubs were limited to budgets where gate receipts, and commercial revenue accounted for a higher percentage and excluded.

TV money,
Income from stadium sales and leaseback.
Windfalls and any other means of cooking the books.

What would football be like without TV money?

Would clubs be run on more modest means and be more relevant to true fans? Less attractive to speculators and crooks laundering money for profit.
Less pressure on good owners to take high risks.

A lot of food for thought.

[drfchound]

It's the Owners and Directors test now, and the EFL are only really bothered with whether the club can fund a full season and complete it's matches.

Dale must have given those assurances last year and reneged on meeting them.

As a minimum, clubs have to submit their budget to the league before receiving their golden share  but how much scrutiny that gets is a question I can't answer.

And on a regular basis throughout the season Rob.

The question still remains how he passed it in the first place...

………….because Dale hasn't suddenly become a rogue trader/ bad businessman with questionable history in the last few months since he bought Bury.

[silent majority]

Just over a year ago we went through the exercise of putting together a governance paper which was presented at our Conference and also presented the to the FA Council.

We have struggled too get the same audience with the EFL and EPL. We've discussed it with both of them, but as yet we haven't had the audience we've asked for. That time is rapidly approaching.

https://twitter.com/henrywinter/status/1166737872101224448/photo/1

[silent majority]

It's the Owners and Directors test now, and the EFL are only really bothered with whether the club can fund a full season and complete it's matches.

Dale must have given those assurances last year and reneged on meeting them.

As a minimum, clubs have to submit their budget to the league before receiving their golden share  but how much scrutiny that gets is a question I can't answer.

And on a regular basis throughout the season Rob.

The question still remains how he passed it in the first place...

Essentially the EFL ignored some of their own regulation.

[wing commander]

  I've just read a very interesting interview with the Bury Academy manager,it's not been a easy week for him that's for sure.Having to tell every kid in the academy they are released before his own job goes next week...

  However one things that stands out for me was finance..He said the money the EFL give clubs towards their academy was basically spent by the club and he never saw a penny off it...

   Now no doubt at some stage the EFL will produce  shiny reports detailing how much they have invested in the Youth and Academy's for the future of the game etc etc.However the reality will be that very little of that money will go to were it is intended, as by the looks of it it's another thing unregulated and trusted that the clubs will use it for it's intended use...And with so many clubs struggling I think we all know that isn't probably happening...

   The EFL is starting to look a more of a shambles to be honest the deeper you look into it....

[Chris Black come back]

Didn’t all our kids go in job lot to Bury in 1998?

[albie]

The EFL have allowed Bury to continue to trade while technically insolvent.

They have entered contracts knowing that the business cannot meet its obligations, and the only way that might have resolved without liquidation is if someone had come in to buy the club and take on those historic debts, knowing also that the assets of the business had been removed before sale.

No-one in their right mind would take on such a deal.

This was obvious to the EFL before the start of the season, but blind hope that a saviour would emerge meant that they allowed the fiasco to continue.

Dale is in a sense rational, but completely unprincipled. The system allows this kind of exploitation.
Why does the EFL collaborate with this behaviour?

Perhaps it is because other owners know a tightening of the rules would limit their own activities.
Turkeys won't vote for Xmas!

The EFL has little chance of getting club owners to sign up to a new protocol.
I hope I am wrong about this!

[silent majority]

Some of what you all say is correct, however not all of it.

I personally believe that what we are seeing, have seen, over the last few years is a result of one man's cavalier attitude, and ultimate conviction, that he is right and nobody else is. That man is Shaun Harvey. The EFL, for the last few years, have reflected his actions and thought processes. He never sought to bring everybody along with him, he just presented his ideas and expected everybody else to fall in line. If you'd ever been in a meeting with him I could guarantee it would be a long one, and I could guarantee that the person doing the most talking would be him. He wanted to change things, in fact he was appointed by the clubs to do exactly that, but the manner in which he went about it was wrong.

Not all EFL personnel are incompetent, or biased, or dogmatic, or any other adjective that you wish to describe them as. There are some excellent people in that organisation, and I've had the pleasure of working with some of them over the years, and let's not forget at least two of them are ex DRFC people!

The point Albie makes is spot on, the EFL are not the people sat in Preston, or their London HQ, the EFL is the 72 clubs, 71 now, who make up the three divisions. Getting change agreed starts and ends with them.

[turnbull for england]

Didn’t all our kids go in job lot to Bury in 1998?

They did yes, used to work with one of them till recently