Leadership Debates

[ncRover]

They have pure Proportional Representation in The Netherlands and the largest party there is Geert Wilders far-right Freedom Party. Careful what you wish for…

[Branton Red]

Belief in democracy equates to belief in people.

It's the refrain of anti-democrats the world over that more power shouldn't be given to the electorate at the ballot box as they may do something we don't like with that power.

[Branton Red]

They have pure Proportional Representation in The Netherlands and the largest party there is Geert Wilders far-right Freedom Party. Careful what you wish for…

The Netherlands has one of the highest levels of GDP per capita in Europe.

Greater democratic powers nearly always leads to greater wealth and a happier population. And that's throughout history.

Something we should all be wishing for.

[Bentley Bullet]

Surely the winners under PR would be Reform? Would that change anyone’s mind on PR?
UKIP would have had a lot more power in parliament about 10 years ago as well.

Had the 2015 GE used PR, UKIP would have had about 78 seats instead of the 1 under FPTP!

However, that score would probably have been higher because voters wouldn't have considered voting for UKIP a waste of a vote under the PR system.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Changing the voting system would probably be the biggest political change for this country in a very long time.

Surely the risk is letting in the far right/left to have some power?  Not to mention the instability in government, have we forgotten Theresa may struggling with a coalition?

How would it work in a diverse collection of nations?  Does the SNP for example only get 2% of seats on a UK basis, substantially less than their current holding? What does that mean for independence shouts? It's complicated.

I expect we'd see more votes for the greens and reform/ukip than current. Based on latest polling reform would have over 60 MPs and people like Farage would end up guaranteed a voice just because of their party. It effectively guarantees the big guns a seat.

[danumdon]

Id say looking at what a PR devolved government would achieve when comparing what it may look like on current voting intentions is probably the wrong way to look at it.

For every vote for an extreme right/left faction you would have counter votes for centre/greens/progressive parties. With the electorate knowing that their vote will now count regardless of where they are located would allow people to express what they want from politicians rather than being told this is what you get.The uptake should also increase proportionately.

For people also worried about extreme elements then the counter balancing nature of a system like this would produce all the checks and balances required.

The only "democratic state" that it doesn't seem to work properly in is places like Isreal when you have a very small extremist party holding the balance of power and having far greater influence then their representation should entail. Very much doubt this would happen in this country due to a more balance political outlook overall.

We don't have bogie men under the bed in this country, people of a delicate nature can relax!

We should never be allowing parties with 36/40 % of the overall vote to take charge, its patently undemocratic.

This country needs a massive shake up, it should start with an initiative like this and then kick on.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've supported PR for many years and still do today.

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to those on the right if they'd not suddenly been converted to the cause by the fact that Labour will win this time.

No system is ever perfect though. If we had PR in this country, it's almost guaranteed that the LDs would be in every single Government.

[ncRover]

Id say looking at what a PR devolved government would achieve when comparing what it may look like on current voting intentions is probably the wrong way to look at it.

For every vote for an extreme right/left faction you would have counter votes for centre/greens/progressive parties. With the electorate knowing that their vote will now count regardless of where they are located would allow people to express what they want from politicians rather than being told this is what you get.The uptake should also increase proportionately.

For people also worried about extreme elements then the counter balancing nature of a system like this would produce all the checks and balances required.

The only "democratic state" that it doesn't seem to work properly in is places like Isreal when you have a very small extremist party holding the balance of power and having far greater influence then their representation should entail. Very much doubt this would happen in this country due to a more balance political outlook overall.

We don't have bogie men under the bed in this country, people of a delicate nature can relax!

We should never be allowing parties with 36/40 % of the overall vote to take charge, its patently undemocratic.

This country needs a massive shake up, it should start with an initiative like this and then kick on.

Do you think Geert Wilders is extreme? Or Farage?

If Farage had got all those seats BB mentions in 2015. He would be a rather powerful politician in this country. The Conservatives would have perhaps gone in to a coalition with him instead of the DUP in 2017.

[ncRover]

I've supported PR for many years and still do today.

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to those on the right if they'd not suddenly been converted to the cause by the fact that Labour will win this time.

No system is ever perfect though. If we had PR in this country, it's almost guaranteed that the LDs would be in every single Government.

What are your thoughts on the Lib Dem’s Billy?

It will be interesting to see how they differentiate themselves from Labour in this election. Or perhaps they will just target the Conservatives in the slim hope of a Labour minority that needs coalition.

[danumdon]

Id say looking at what a PR devolved government would achieve when comparing what it may look like on current voting intentions is probably the wrong way to look at it.

For every vote for an extreme right/left faction you would have counter votes for centre/greens/progressive parties. With the electorate knowing that their vote will now count regardless of where they are located would allow people to express what they want from politicians rather than being told this is what you get.The uptake should also increase proportionately.

For people also worried about extreme elements then the counter balancing nature of a system like this would produce all the checks and balances required.

The only "democratic state" that it doesn't seem to work properly in is places like Isreal when you have a very small extremist party holding the balance of power and having far greater influence then their representation should entail. Very much doubt this would happen in this country due to a more balance political outlook overall.

We don't have bogie men under the bed in this country, people of a delicate nature can relax!

We should never be allowing parties with 36/40 % of the overall vote to take charge, its patently undemocratic.

This country needs a massive shake up, it should start with an initiative like this and then kick on.

Do you think Geert Wilders is extreme? Or Farage?

If Farage had got all those seats BB mentions in 2015. He would be a rather powerful politician in this country. The Conservatives would have perhaps gone in to a coalition with him instead of the DUP in 2017.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/26/the-guardian-view-on-the-netherlands-a-radical-right-reset-will-challenge-european-unity

Looks like they already have Wilders number. He can't stand as leader and has had to compromise all his extreme policies to enable others to join his alliance for government. The indication is that this coalition will more than likely still fail.

In effect this is what PR should do with its checks and balances, the same thing had happened in Italy with Meloni having to temper her policies.

Farage, never going to happen.

[danumdon]

I've supported PR for many years and still do today.

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to those on the right if they'd not suddenly been converted to the cause by the fact that Labour will win this time.

No system is ever perfect though. If we had PR in this country, it's almost guaranteed that the LDs would be in every single Government.

!

[ncRover]

Id say looking at what a PR devolved government would achieve when comparing what it may look like on current voting intentions is probably the wrong way to look at it.

For every vote for an extreme right/left faction you would have counter votes for centre/greens/progressive parties. With the electorate knowing that their vote will now count regardless of where they are located would allow people to express what they want from politicians rather than being told this is what you get.The uptake should also increase proportionately.

For people also worried about extreme elements then the counter balancing nature of a system like this would produce all the checks and balances required.

The only "democratic state" that it doesn't seem to work properly in is places like Isreal when you have a very small extremist party holding the balance of power and having far greater influence then their representation should entail. Very much doubt this would happen in this country due to a more balance political outlook overall.

We don't have bogie men under the bed in this country, people of a delicate nature can relax!

We should never be allowing parties with 36/40 % of the overall vote to take charge, its patently undemocratic.

This country needs a massive shake up, it should start with an initiative like this and then kick on.

Do you think Geert Wilders is extreme? Or Farage?

If Farage had got all those seats BB mentions in 2015. He would be a rather powerful politician in this country. The Conservatives would have perhaps gone in to a coalition with him instead of the DUP in 2017.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/26/the-guardian-view-on-the-netherlands-a-radical-right-reset-will-challenge-european-unity

Looks like they already have Wilders number. He can't stand as leader and has had to compromise all his extreme policies to enable others to join his alliance for government. The indication is that this coalition will more than likely still fail.

In effect this is what PR should do with its checks and balances, the same thing had happened in Italy with Meloni having to temper her policies.

Farage, never going to happen.

That all makes sense actually, thank you.

My worry with PR is that it would just turn in to a far-left v far-right circus. With either side getting more riled up if their polar opposites got more power.

But I guess if those parts of the population feel more represented in the democratic process they are less likely to get more cynical and extreme. (Less talk of “the elites”).

[Glyn_Wigley]

I've supported PR for many years and still do today.

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to those on the right if they'd not suddenly been converted to the cause by the fact that Labour will win this time.

No system is ever perfect though. If we had PR in this country, it's almost guaranteed that the LDs would be in every single Government.

Or the SNP. That'd rile the little Englanders with the Scottish holding sway over a different country!

[danumdon]

Id say looking at what a PR devolved government would achieve when comparing what it may look like on current voting intentions is probably the wrong way to look at it.

For every vote for an extreme right/left faction you would have counter votes for centre/greens/progressive parties. With the electorate knowing that their vote will now count regardless of where they are located would allow people to express what they want from politicians rather than being told this is what you get.The uptake should also increase proportionately.

For people also worried about extreme elements then the counter balancing nature of a system like this would produce all the checks and balances required.

The only "democratic state" that it doesn't seem to work properly in is places like Isreal when you have a very small extremist party holding the balance of power and having far greater influence then their representation should entail. Very much doubt this would happen in this country due to a more balance political outlook overall.

We don't have bogie men under the bed in this country, people of a delicate nature can relax!

We should never be allowing parties with 36/40 % of the overall vote to take charge, its patently undemocratic.

This country needs a massive shake up, it should start with an initiative like this and then kick on.

Do you think Geert Wilders is extreme? Or Farage?

If Farage had got all those seats BB mentions in 2015. He would be a rather powerful politician in this country. The Conservatives would have perhaps gone in to a coalition with him instead of the DUP in 2017.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/26/the-guardian-view-on-the-netherlands-a-radical-right-reset-will-challenge-european-unity

Looks like they already have Wilders number. He can't stand as leader and has had to compromise all his extreme policies to enable others to join his alliance for government. The indication is that this coalition will more than likely still fail.

In effect this is what PR should do with its checks and balances, the same thing had happened in Italy with Meloni having to temper her policies.

Farage, never going to happen.

That all makes sense actually, thank you.

My worry with PR is that it would just turn in to a far-left v far-right circus. With either side getting more riled up if their polar opposites got more power.

But I guess if those parts of the population feel more represented in the democratic process they are less likely to get more cynical and extreme. (Less talk of “the elites”).

It should allow the electorate to take control of the process instead of having two parties thinking they can just divi it up between them and requiring voters to tow their particular line.

Its probably the biggest reason why the "establishment" will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from happening to protect their own interests, to the determent of the electorate.

When the two parties start singing from the same hymn sheet, then we really are in trouble.

[ncRover]

I've supported PR for many years and still do today.

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to those on the right if they'd not suddenly been converted to the cause by the fact that Labour will win this time.

No system is ever perfect though. If we had PR in this country, it's almost guaranteed that the LDs would be in every single Government.

Or the SNP. That'd rile the little Englanders with the Scottish holding sway over a different country!

SNP are toast in this election but FPTP was never a hurdle for them. Its probably more accurate to call the SNP “Little Scotlanders” anyway.

[BillyStubbsTears]

One potential benefit of PR might be that the fringe parties would have a lot more scrutiny of their policies.

Fir example, how many people who voted UKIP in 2015 knew that their manifesto committed them to a massive cut in taxes and a huge increase in public spending? At a time when the deficit was already about 6% of GDP.

Folk could vote UKIP then as a protest, knowing that their policies were meaningless. If we had PR and they could hold the balance of power, you'd like to think there'd be a bit more consideration of what they really stood for.

Then again, given most UKIP voters I've come across...

[Branton Red]

Democracy is about compromise. We'll all have our own individual views on laws that should be passed and how the country should be run but none of us should be able to get our own way - that's dictatorship.

Currently we have 2 major broad church parties one bestriding the left and one the right. The compromises on policy are decided within these parties by a small handful of the population.

The electorate effectively has a choice of one of these parties and their predetermined policy compromises or the other to run the country. And given the FPTP system people in marginal seats have more of a say than others - votes in marginal seats are worth more to politicians as can be seen by the extra time/money invested in campaigning in those areas.

Under PR there would be more parties with differing policies and views to choose from. The electorate would have more of a say in which policies are enacted and how the country is run. The power of compromise on policy would, to a much greater extent, be held by ordinary people rather than by a small bunch of bug-eyed ideologues at Tory and Labour HQ.

And each vote across the country would count equally.

Both those things would increase engagement in politics.

Our democracy would be strengthened greatly and the policy of government better reflect the views of the people.

[drfchound]

I don’t know why PR is even under discussion as potentially something that could happen any time soon.
Having read most of the above posts it is very obvious that the big two would never allow it to happen.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Although I can see Starmer and Sunak getting on like a house on fire, them and their ilk ruling for decades.

Thing is, whatever people are voting is part of the picture of democracy, we have to accept that. The other side is parties being compelled to carry out their manifesto, and then the media giving us it straight as opposed to the establishment controlled BS we currently have.

One step at a time I guess.

[drfchound]

They do seem to have a lot in common.

[IDM]

I don’t think anyone is suggesting PR could happen any time soon, more that many believe it should.