UKIP conference at the racecourse

[BillyStubbsTears]

Glyn

You can equally point that finger at me. I made the same mistake.

[IC1967]

Blatant lies and misinformation are highlighted in bold. EFTA members are allowed to run their own affairs. Iceland, Norway, and Liechtenstein have an EFTA/EEA agreement. This allows allow them access to the Single Market. Crucially though they still keep control of agriculture, fisheries, Home Affairs and Justice. They do not have to sign up to all the EU regulations. They are only subject to the 4,500 EEA regulations. They are not signed up to the additional 15,000 EU regulations. Switzerland has a similar arrangement and has negotiated several  free trade bi-lateral agreements with the EU.

So BST, it is clear for all to see that it is you that is living in cloud cuckoo land. You lie to give people the impression that if we left the EU and still wanted to trade with them we'd still be subject to all their rules. This is a monumental lie. It doesn't get much bigger than this. How you've got the nerve to perpetrate such a lie is beyond belief. You really must think everyone on this forum is stupid.

Luckily for all the stupid people on this forum that believe all your utterances I am around to expose you.

Now I'd suggest you get on with that abject apology before I further expose you. You've got until midnight or I'll be posting more damning evidence again tomorrow.

EEA/EFTA gives member countries access to Free Trade with the EU, NOT the Single Market. Completely different things. No wonder you don't know what you're blathering about. As usual.

Not quite sure what you are on about (as usual). I'm not sure even you know what you think you are on about.

Let me explain so the likes of you and Billy can understand. I'll try not to use too many big words.

EEA is short for the European Economic Area. Member countries have free movement of goods, services, people and capital. This is the Single market. All the countries in the EU are members of the EEA. Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein, who are members of EFTA are also members of the EEA and also have access to the Single Market. It is not just about free trade as you seem to think.

I don't think I can make it any easier to understand. If you're still not sure then let me know exactly what it is you don't understand. If you still think I'm not right, then please try and show me where I'm going wrong as I could do with a good laugh.

Look, Like Billy you've probably had one battering too many in the past. Take the advice I've given Billy. Ignore my posts. You only end up making yourself look daft when you try and prove I've made a mistake.

[wing commander]

  I've had a few political sparrings with bst in the past and whilst we are at different ends of the political divide I always try and discuss it without getting into a row which this has done...However whatever the individual opinions of people are I'm sure that bst will admit Labour have totally failed to engage with the public..Edd was the wrong choice of leader and Balls doesn't come across very well and people just don't trust them..In truth with a government who have had to make some hard descisions to the public purse Labour should be flying in the polls and the fact that they are not makes grim reading for any labour supporter...

[BillyStubbsTears]

WC

I respect your views, but I'm going to have to demur on each point, except the fact that Balls doesn't come across well. I'll give you that one!

I simply don't agree that Labour should be flying in the polls. It would be unprecedented for a party to have such a thumping as Labour got in 2010 and to romp home the next time round with a huge majority. It's never happened in any of our lifetimes. The fact that Labour are still favourites to be the largest party next year is quite something in itself.

As for picking the wrong brother, I disagree again. Certainly, EM is not photogenic material. But then neither is his brother. Remember how the press rounded on him when it looked like he might be about to topple Brown and give Labour a fresh face in the run-up to 2010? The "Mr Bean" headlines.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/1728215/Miliband-no-rival-for-Mr-Bean.html

You reckon the Sun would have given him respect as Leader of the Opposition?

And then there's policy. One of the reasons that Labour got such a thumping in 2010 is that, between 2001 and 2010, something like 2 million Labour voters deserted them for the Lib Dems. They were turned off by New Labour. New Labour lost them. David Miliband was the flag-bearer for New Labour.

Since the 2010 election, more than a million of those voters have consistently said that they will now vote Labour. You think they would have come back if Blair MkII was Leader of the Opposition?

[IC1967]

  I've had a few political sparrings with bst in the past and whilst we are at different ends of the political divide I always try and discuss it without getting into a row which this has done...However whatever the individual opinions of people are I'm sure that bst will admit Labour have totally failed to engage with the public..Edd was the wrong choice of leader and Balls doesn't come across very well and people just don't trust them..In truth with a government who have had to make some hard descisions to the public purse Labour should be flying in the polls and the fact that they are not makes grim reading for any labour supporter...

I know what you mean. I try my best to be civil to Billy but he doesn't reciprocate. You should see some of the names he calls me. I get the impression he doesn't like me.

Well, I have to say I don't dislike Billy but I will not put up with being called a liar. That is going too far, especially when it is him that is a liar. I've been too soft on him in the past but he has stepped over the line. Until he starts treating me in a civil manner he'll get short shrift from me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

Let's see:

Outright barefaced lies:
Identity
Photographic memory/plagiarism
Grand National tips
Scottish referendum bets

That'll do for now.

Wrong Predictions:
Scottish referendum result
Grand National result
Rovers getting relegated in 2012/13
The UK facing hyperinflation in 2013
The UK being in deflation by July 2014
Labour being on 26% in the polls by May 2014.

That's a decent list off the top of my head to start with.

I don't dislike you. I hover somewhere between pity and disgust.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Blatant lies and misinformation are highlighted in bold. EFTA members are allowed to run their own affairs. Iceland, Norway, and Liechtenstein have an EFTA/EEA agreement. This allows allow them access to the Single Market. Crucially though they still keep control of agriculture, fisheries, Home Affairs and Justice. They do not have to sign up to all the EU regulations. They are only subject to the 4,500 EEA regulations. They are not signed up to the additional 15,000 EU regulations. Switzerland has a similar arrangement and has negotiated several  free trade bi-lateral agreements with the EU.

So BST, it is clear for all to see that it is you that is living in cloud cuckoo land. You lie to give people the impression that if we left the EU and still wanted to trade with them we'd still be subject to all their rules. This is a monumental lie. It doesn't get much bigger than this. How you've got the nerve to perpetrate such a lie is beyond belief. You really must think everyone on this forum is stupid.

Luckily for all the stupid people on this forum that believe all your utterances I am around to expose you.

Now I'd suggest you get on with that abject apology before I further expose you. You've got until midnight or I'll be posting more damning evidence again tomorrow.

EEA/EFTA gives member countries access to Free Trade with the EU, NOT the Single Market. Completely different things. No wonder you don't know what you're blathering about. As usual.

Not quite sure what you are on about (as usual). I'm not sure even you know what you think you are on about.

Let me explain so the likes of you and Billy can understand. I'll try not to use too many big words.

EEA is short for the European Economic Area. Member countries have free movement of goods, services, people and capital. This is the Single market. All the countries in the EU are members of the EEA. Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein, who are members of EFTA are also members of the EEA and also have access to the Single Market. It is not just about free trade as you seem to think.

I don't think I can make it any easier to understand. If you're still not sure then let me know exactly what it is you don't understand. If you still think I'm not right, then please try and show me where I'm going wrong as I could do with a good laugh.

Look, Like Billy you've probably had one battering too many in the past. Take the advice I've given Billy. Ignore my posts. You only end up making yourself look daft when you try and prove I've made a mistake.

No it isn't. You don't know what you're talking about. No country outside of the EU is in the Single Market. Twenty years as an International Trade Officer for Customs/HMRC makes me know the difference inside out. Your problem, Mick, is that when you cut and paste from someone who doesn't understand things, it shows you don't either.

[IC1967]

Blatant lies and misinformation are highlighted in bold. EFTA members are allowed to run their own affairs. Iceland, Norway, and Liechtenstein have an EFTA/EEA agreement. This allows allow them access to the Single Market. Crucially though they still keep control of agriculture, fisheries, Home Affairs and Justice. They do not have to sign up to all the EU regulations. They are only subject to the 4,500 EEA regulations. They are not signed up to the additional 15,000 EU regulations. Switzerland has a similar arrangement and has negotiated several  free trade bi-lateral agreements with the EU.

So BST, it is clear for all to see that it is you that is living in cloud cuckoo land. You lie to give people the impression that if we left the EU and still wanted to trade with them we'd still be subject to all their rules. This is a monumental lie. It doesn't get much bigger than this. How you've got the nerve to perpetrate such a lie is beyond belief. You really must think everyone on this forum is stupid.

Luckily for all the stupid people on this forum that believe all your utterances I am around to expose you.

Now I'd suggest you get on with that abject apology before I further expose you. You've got until midnight or I'll be posting more damning evidence again tomorrow.

EEA/EFTA gives member countries access to Free Trade with the EU, NOT the Single Market. Completely different things. No wonder you don't know what you're blathering about. As usual.

Not quite sure what you are on about (as usual). I'm not sure even you know what you think you are on about.

Let me explain so the likes of you and Billy can understand. I'll try not to use too many big words.

EEA is short for the European Economic Area. Member countries have free movement of goods, services, people and capital. This is the Single market. All the countries in the EU are members of the EEA. Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein, who are members of EFTA are also members of the EEA and also have access to the Single Market. It is not just about free trade as you seem to think.

I don't think I can make it any easier to understand. If you're still not sure then let me know exactly what it is you don't understand. If you still think I'm not right, then please try and show me where I'm going wrong as I could do with a good laugh.

Look, Like Billy you've probably had one battering too many in the past. Take the advice I've given Billy. Ignore my posts. You only end up making yourself look daft when you try and prove I've made a mistake.

No it isn't. You don't know what you're talking about. No country outside of the EU is in the Single Market. Twenty years as an International Trade Officer for Customs/HMRC makes me know the difference inside out. Your problem, Mick, is that when you cut and paste from someone who doesn't understand things, it shows you don't either.

I think you need to get a new job. You obviously haven't got a clue what you are on about. I'll say it again in the hope that the information may penetrate your thick skull.

The EEA is most definitely the European Economic Area. The EEA includes all EU countries and also Iceland, Lichtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the Single Market!!! Switzerland is not a member of the EU or EEA and is also part of the Single market!!! Have you got it yet? I can't believe I'm having to explain it again!!!

Stop making yourself look stupid!!!

Maybe you'll believe what the government publishes on its website!!!

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea


Now get that abject apology sorted and we'll say no more about it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

When countries who are part of the Single Market move goods between themselves, there are no C88 Customs Declarations needed, and there is no VAT charged on the goods. There is complete freedom of movement without the need for any documentation to be presented at any internal borders.

Imports/exports to the EEA countries DO have to have C88 Customs declarations presented, and the goods are subject to VAT. Therefore there is Customs control and are not part of the Single Market. Just because you cut and paste something you like doesn't mean it was written by somebody who knows what they're talking about. Or that you do either. But carry on, it's hilarious watching you.

[IC1967]

When countries who are part of the Single Market move goods between themselves, there are no C88 Customs Declarations needed, and there is no VAT charged on the goods. There is complete freedom of movement without the need for any documentation to be presented at any internal borders.

Imports/exports to the EEA countries DO have to have C88 Customs declarations presented, and the goods are subject to VAT. Therefore there is Customs control and are not part of the Single Market. Just because you cut and paste something you like doesn't mean it was written by somebody who knows what they're talking about. Or that you do either. But carry on, it's hilarious watching you.

Unbelievable. You have stated that No country that is outside of the EU is in the Single Market. This is patently untrue and totally absurd. Here's what the UK government's own website says:

The EEA includes EU countries and also Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the EU’s single market.

Switzerland is neither an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market - this means Swiss nationals have the same rights to live and work in the UK as other EEA nationals.


You strike me as someone that can't see the wood for the trees. So what if there are different forms for the above 4 countries to fill in. That is not a surprise and is to be expected. The main point is as I have said above and what the government and numerous other sources have said. I repeat. Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland are part of the Single Market!!! There are no trade tariffs!!!

Being outside the EU has not prevented them from being part of the Single Market!!!

Have you got it yet?

Now get on with that abject apology and we'll try and move on from this sorry mess.

[BillyStubbsTears]

"Being outside the EU has not prevented them from being part of the Single Market!!!"

Abrogating the freedom of movement aspects of the EEA (or the bi-lateral agreement in the case of Switzerland) most certainly WOULD result in the economic barriers going up. In fact it is already doing so in the case of Switzerland. Which was the point I was making before this thread followed so many into the black hole of "It's all about Mick".

[IC1967]

"Being outside the EU has not prevented them from being part of the Single Market!!!"

Abrogating the freedom of movement aspects of the EEA (or the bi-lateral agreement in the case of Switzerland) most certainly WOULD result in the economic barriers going up. In fact it is already doing so in the case of Switzerland. Which was the point I was making before this thread followed so many into the black hole of "It's all about Mick".

Nice to see you agreeing with me for a change. Hopefully Mr Wigley will get that abject apology sorted now his best mate has pointed out the error of his ways as well.

Let me get this straight. You seem to still be indulging in scaremongering again. You seem to be suggesting that if the UK were part of EEA but out of the freedom of moment aspect then the economic barriers would go up. You say 'most certainly WOULD'. You use Switzerland as the example that proves your case.

How do you know what would happen to the UK? As I've pointed out earlier in this thread there are many reasons why it would not be in the interests of the EU to erect economic barriers. Such a move would hurt them more than us. They gain from trading with us. We lose out. We are a much bigger country than Switzerland etc. We are Germany's biggest trading partner. In case you don't know, what Germany says, goes in the EU.

I fully accept that it is possible that what you say 'may' happen but for you to say it 'most certainly WOULD' is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think I can speak for Nige and say that Switzerland is a totally different case to the UK so trying to make out that what happens to Switzerland is what awaits the UK should it pull out of the EU is a load of cobblers and is a case of you indulging in scaremongering again. You are totally wrong. For starters we are a much bigger trading partner.

The Swiss have a trade surplus, we have a trade deficit. We are the EU's biggest trading partner. We are Germany's biggest trading partner. The EU gets the best of the deal by trading with the UK. Switzerland gets the best of the deal by trading with the EU.

Mick

You know how much trouble I have keeping up with your brilliant and idiosyncratic use of English?

Can you help me out on a few issues here. The ones highlighted above.

When you say that Switzerland has a trade surplus, do you mean on trade with the EU?
When you say that Switzerland gets the best out of the deal with the EU, what exactly do you mean?
When you say that we are a "much bigger trading partner", how do you define "much"?

Just some simple points to clear up for a simpleton like me.

[Glyn_Wigley]

When countries who are part of the Single Market move goods between themselves, there are no C88 Customs Declarations needed, and there is no VAT charged on the goods. There is complete freedom of movement without the need for any documentation to be presented at any internal borders.

Imports/exports to the EEA countries DO have to have C88 Customs declarations presented, and the goods are subject to VAT. Therefore there is Customs control and are not part of the Single Market. Just because you cut and paste something you like doesn't mean it was written by somebody who knows what they're talking about. Or that you do either. But carry on, it's hilarious watching you.

Unbelievable. You have stated that No country that is outside of the EU is in the Single Market. This is patently untrue and totally absurd. Here's what the UK government's own website says:

The EEA includes EU countries and also Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the EU’s single market.

Switzerland is neither an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market - this means Swiss nationals have the same rights to live and work in the UK as other EEA nationals.


You strike me as someone that can't see the wood for the trees. So what if there are different forms for the above 4 countries to fill in. That is not a surprise and is to be expected. The main point is as I have said above and what the government and numerous other sources have said. I repeat. Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland are part of the Single Market!!! There are no trade tariffs!!!

Being outside the EU has not prevented them from being part of the Single Market!!!

Have you got it yet?

Now get on with that abject apology and we'll try and move on from this sorry mess.

See what I mean about you being hilarious? It's very entertaining.

[IC1967]

I think I can speak for Nige and say that Switzerland is a totally different case to the UK so trying to make out that what happens to Switzerland is what awaits the UK should it pull out of the EU is a load of cobblers and is a case of you indulging in scaremongering again. You are totally wrong. For starters we are a much bigger trading partner.

The Swiss have a trade surplus, we have a trade deficit. We are the EU's biggest trading partner. We are Germany's biggest trading partner. The EU gets the best of the deal by trading with the UK. Switzerland gets the best of the deal by trading with the EU.

Mick

You know how much trouble I have keeping up with your brilliant use of English?

Can you help me out on a few issues here as I am incredibly thick and a right pedant who just loves arguing for the sake of it. The ones highlighted above.

a) When you say that Switzerland has a trade surplus, do you mean on trade with the EU?
b) When you say that Switzerland gets the best out of the deal with the EU, what exactly do you mean?
c) When you say that we are a "much bigger trading partner", how do you define "much"?

Just some simple points to clear up for a simpleton like me.

You are a right thicko. You are obviously trying to 'trap' me into making a wrong statement. Well you don't intimidate me. I've decided to humour you just to see what silly game you are trying to play and to show you up for the pedant that you are. It is obvious from my statements what I mean. As you appear to be of subnormal intelligence, let me clarify things.

a) Yes.
b) They have a trade surplus with the EU. See answer to (c for further information.
c) Currently Britain has a trade deficit with EU countries, of around £40 billion a year, which is the equivalent of exporting 1 million jobs. Britain has only once had a trade surplus with EU countries, otherwise a deficit, not the win-win agreement people thought they were getting. Having a deficit, means other countries benefit from the jobs, the income taxes, corporation taxes and VAT that come from producing those goods and services. Countries like Norway and Switzerland have generally a trade balance or surplus with EU countries.

If you want to know more you can have a look at this link.

http://www.brugesgroup.com/EFTAorEUQ%26As.pdf

From the previous posts of you and Mr Wigley it seems you don't know half as much about the EU as me. Any more questions please feel free to ask. I am an expert on this subject and am happy to pass on the benefit of my knowledge.

[IC1967]

When countries who are part of the Single Market move goods between themselves, there are no C88 Customs Declarations needed, and there is no VAT charged on the goods. There is complete freedom of movement without the need for any documentation to be presented at any internal borders.

Imports/exports to the EEA countries DO have to have C88 Customs declarations presented, and the goods are subject to VAT. Therefore there is Customs control and are not part of the Single Market. Just because you cut and paste something you like doesn't mean it was written by somebody who knows what they're talking about. Or that you do either. But carry on, it's hilarious watching you.

Unbelievable. You have stated that No country that is outside of the EU is in the Single Market. This is patently untrue and totally absurd. Here's what the UK government's own website says:

The EEA includes EU countries and also Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the EU’s single market.

Switzerland is neither an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market - this means Swiss nationals have the same rights to live and work in the UK as other EEA nationals.


You strike me as someone that can't see the wood for the trees. So what if there are different forms for the above 4 countries to fill in. That is not a surprise and is to be expected. The main point is as I have said above and what the government and numerous other sources have said. I repeat. Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland are part of the Single Market!!! There are no trade tariffs!!!

Being outside the EU has not prevented them from being part of the Single Market!!!

Have you got it yet?

Now get on with that abject apology and we'll try and move on from this sorry mess.

See what I mean about you being hilarious? It's very entertaining.

You need to be made aware of the fact that we are laughing at you and not with you. Now get on with that abject apology and people may start to think better of you. At the moment your reputation as a pedant is sky high but your reputation as someone who knows what he's on about is as low as it can get. You've got a big repair job on your hands. What the hell have you been doing in your job for the last 20 years? You should by now know the basics of the Single Market.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick.

I'm not trying to trap you into doing anything. I AM interested in where you get your numbers from, however, because they are invariably wrong.

Have a look at the official figures from the EU.

I'll point you to the right place. Top of Page 2. Key Figures Table. Have a look at the EU's Imports to and Exports from Switzerland. and the EU's trade balance with Switzerland.

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113450.pdf


So, when your Swivel-Eyed-Rght-Wing-Nutter.com source says "Countries like Switzerland generally have a trade balance or surplus with the EU", what they actually mean  is "Switzerland had a 75 BILLION Euro trade deficit with the EU in 2013, but if we lie, bell ends like Mick who are incapable of doing their own research, but perfectly capable of repeating outright lies will spread the word for us."

Is that about right?

PS: That source took me precisely 20 seconds to find. There's a world of fact out there if you're prepared to look in the right places, instead of diving straight for mendacious propaganda that tells you what you want to hear.

[IC1967]

Statistics and damned lies eh? I'd much rather trust the figures from the Bruges Group than any you find. You've spent 20 seconds finding what you want and post it immediately without checking. Typical. Call that research?

Anyway whatever the merits of the figures my main point holds water. The UK would be in a much more powerful position to negotiate with the EU on freedom of movement than Switzerland. You need to start trying to see the wood for the trees and stop getting bogged down in minutiae. It is obvious that I am a big picture sort of person. You would do well to take a leaf out of my book.

For your information, the Bruges group is non party and has many Labour supporters. You really must try to control your tendency for exaggeration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruges_Group

[Hounslowrover]

Reading this with interest, and even followed Mick's link, but it doesn't mention Labour supporters, just some Labour members who have spoken to the group.  Why would you trust the Bruges group figures more than the actual EEC, surely one is dissembling, the other fact.  I'd go with the EEC figures unless, of course, they have been shown to be fictional.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You're definitely a big something Mick

We'll chalk that one up to another blatant lie then.

"Lies, damn lies and statistics?"

You odious little Kitson. We are talking about FACTS here. The things that underpin and provide foundations for any rational discussion.

You built a case on the supposed fact that could be checked quicker than you could wipe your arse. It was wrong. And then you say, "Who cares, I'm right anyway."

You are utterly beneath contempt.

[IC1967]

Look. It's the big picture that counts. I'm fully prepared to accept the Bruges Group may have got their figures wrong. But in terms of the big picture it is neither here nor there. My main point does not stand or fall on those figures.

The Bruges Group is non party and not a hardcore right wing organisation. It exists to argue the case for EU withdrawal and has support from Tory and Labour.

So take a chill pill and just admit you've lost the argument (again).

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

The Bruges a Group article didn't show any figures. That's the whole f**king point. They know what the figures are. Anyone with a shred of self-respect an a modicum of intelligence can find them in seconds. (I accept that is a tough bar for you, but most people have higher standards.)

The whole point is that they don't CARE about setting the truth before people. They want out if Europe for ideological reasons and they are prepared to dissemble and lie about awkward facts that don't support them.

If you want out of Europe for ideological reasons, then fine. Argue that case. But don't invent "facts" when the real facts don't support you.


Doh! I'd forgotten who I was talking to for a moment. You lie as easily and naturally as you breathe.

Hey ho. That's another episode of Take Down Mick finished for this week. Tune in next week to see what utter dogshite he trots out, insists for days that it is fact, finally backs down and eventually says it doesn't matter anyway.

[IC1967]

Right. You've asked for it. I'm going to start to make the case for EU withdrawal. By the time I've finished with you, you'll be begging for mercy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just so long as you don't quote any "facts" (sic) while you're doing it.

In fact, just do it quietly and let us know when you've finished.

[IC1967]

Right. Before I start taking Billy apart yet again I just need to clarify what has happened over the most recent posts. Billy keeps calling me a liar. So I've called him a liar. I've proved that he has told a monumental lie about the EU so in desperation he has been using diversionary tactics to try and change the subject.

Here in a nutshell is what has happened. Billy lied by saying that the EFTA countries and SWitzerland had to abide by all the rules of the EU if they wanted to trade with them. He did this to scare British people into thinking there is no point leaving the EU as we'll still have to comply with all the rules and have no influence over them. The big lie that I've exposed is that if we did for example join EFTA, we'd only be governed by a fraction of the rules. I haven't mentioned this before, but we would also have some influence over any new rules that were created. Billy wants everyone to think we'd have to abide by all the rules and we'd have no influence over any new ones. What a liar.

So what does billy do when he's been exposed. He calls me a liar because I've posted information from the well respected think tank the Bruges Group. He thinks he's found a small mistake in that they have stated that Switzerland generally has a trade surplus with the EU whereas Billy has found some figures that contradict this. In good grace I've said that I am prepared to accept Billy's findings. He's then banged on about this minor detail trying to convince everyone that because he may have found a small mistake he has won the main argument and everything I've said before has been a lie! Unbelievable.

He really does think that the readers of this forum are so stupid that they'll fall for this diversionary tactic. I have comprehensively won this part of the debate. Of this there is no doubt. So all I ask is that when you read any of Billy's future posts you remember this incident. He thinks he knows everything and can't stand it when he is shown up to be a liar and a fool. I always give him the respect of weighing up his views before deciding I was right all along. I get the impression he just takes the opposite view to me just for the sake of it. Anyone can see that I talk a lot of sense.

Right pretty soon I'll be making the case for EU withdrawal. Trust me, by the time I'm finished you'll all be begging for it.

[Hounslowrover]

If you google "Do EFTA countries have to abide by EU trade rules", the answer is yes.  They also pay into the EU budget, Norway about 10th highest contributor.  Both Norway and Switzerland follow 80-90% of EU regulations.  Sorry I couldn't do a link.

[IC1967]

If you google "Do EFTA countries have to abide by EU trade rules", the answer is yes.  They also pay into the EU budget, Norway about 10th highest contributor.  Both Norway and Switzerland follow 80-90% of EU regulations.  Sorry I couldn't do a link.

That's OK I trust you. You don't have to back up everything you say with tons of research and cross checking. I believe you, whether Billy will is another matter.

Here's what Billy said:

UKIP are in cloud cuckoo land. There are 500 million people in the EU, all working to a common set of rules, which include freedom of movement. They require countries that want to trade as part of the same open market to sign up to this set of rules. That is why they are already hitting Switzerland (before the Swiss have even fully applied the referendum result to pull out of the free movement agreement).

See Billy wasn't just talking about 'trade' rules. He was talking about the full set of rules, most of which have nothing to do with trade. He was trying to con everyone into thinking that if we joined EFTA we'd still be bound by all the rules of the EU. We wouldn't. We'd be bound by a small fraction. Of course he knows he's been exposed as a liar so is doing all he can to try and use diversionary tactics to try and stop people realising the monumental lie he's come up with. All this banging on about whether Switzerland has a trade deficit or trade surplus is a small detail that is neither here nor there. He's tried to turn it into a massive issue to throw everyone off the scent. He thinks we're all stupid.

Your'e also right about these countries making a contribution. However it is much less than it would be if they were full members.

The following information is out of date but is still very pertinent to the debate.

EFTA comes close to realising the dispensation that most British voters always wanted from Europe: free trade without unnecessary regulation or political union. Its rude prosperity is embarrassing to British Euro-sophists, who have been telling us for 30 years that the EU is vital to our economic survival. Naturally, Eurocrats have evolved a series of arguments to disparage the EFTA states. Since this is likely to become a lively debate in Britain in the coming years, it is worth looking at these arguments in turn. I shall try to cover all the assertions habitually made by supporters of the EU.

The EFTA states have to assimilate thousands of EU laws over whose drafting they have had no say.

This is the so-called “fax diplomacy” argument: because EFTA states are obliged to adopt several single market measures, their lawmakers are portrayed as sitting next to their fax machines waiting for the directives to come from Brussels. It is certainly true that the three EEA states, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, have to apply a number of single market regulations. But these tend to be technical in nature, and are limited to a clearly defined part of their economy. Since the EEA was born in 1992, Norway and Iceland have each adopted around 3,000 EU legal acts (the figure is lower in Liechtenstein, which joined later). But few of these rules were important enough to need legislation in those countries: the 3,000 legislative acts have required fewer than 50 parliamentary statutes in the Norway’s Storting and Iceland’s Althing. They deal with such matters as the correct way to list ingredients on a ketchup bottle; they do not tell the Norwegians and Icelanders what to tax, where to fish, whom to employ or what surplus to run. And it is not true that the EEA states have no say over these rules. There are formal consultation mechanisms built into the EEA accord. Oddly, those who point so excitedly to the 3,000 Euro-laws adopted by Norway neglect to mention the 18,000 that Britain has had to accept over the same period. In any case, if the Norwegian option is regarded as undesirable, there is always the Swiss option: Switzerland, being outside the EEA, relies instead on bilateral treaties with the EU, synchronising its regulations with its neighbours only when it wishes (which, being an exporting country, it often does). One final point, which is almost always overlooked. The founding charter of the EEA, the Lisbon Treaty, enshrines the EU’s jurisdiction as it stood on 2 May 1992. It provides no mechanism to impose on Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein the extensions of EU power that have happened in subsequent treaties, notably in the fields of employment law, social policy and justice and home affairs. It is up to these countries to decide whether they wish to alter their own law to keep pace with the EU in these areas.


http://www.brugesgroup.com/mediacentre/?article=10488

Now, let's get one thing straight. Just because I'm banging on about EFTA doesn't mean that I think that is the way forward. I'm just showing one side of the argument so people can be better informed about our options. There is an unbelievable amount of anti EFTA propaganda which Billy is guilty in peddling. All I'm doing is trying to redress the balance is a very small way.