Jeremy Hunt

[MachoMadness]

I wasn't born in the 1980s, you are correct. However, when our nearest frame of reference for this situation is 30 years ago, I would argue that culturally, we're in a very different place. At least, omnipresent social media and the ability to download news and information from the sky throws in a whole load of variables to influence the public mood that simply were not around then. You may well be right in everything you say, and you back yourself up with empirical data and facts from a time when I wasn't born, but I'm saying - hoping, at least - that things have changed a bit in the last 30 years. Wait and see.

Besides, he's a vegetarian, so he's never going to be in a position to eat a bacon sandwich oddly. He's got it in the bag.

[The Red Baron]

Speaking of Trump, it's entirely possible that he will be facing off against Bernie Sanders, who would certainly be the most left-wing candidate for President the Democrats have ever fielded.

[Iberian Red]

We have something in common MachoMadness,I was nt born in the 1980s too!

[Dutch Uncle]

At the risk of sounding sycophantic, can I just say what a pleasure it is to read this excellent thread and well expressed views without any hijacking. 

 

[i_ateallthepies]

Totally agree there Dutch... where IS mad Mick these days anyway?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Have to say I'm not a big Jeremy Hunt fan either right now.  I actually don't disagree with some of the things he's doing though, it's the way he goes about it.  Realistically there's a mid point for both sides and that is important.

[BillyStubbsTears]

MM.

I wish I shared your optimism that things have changed. But the fact that a moderate like Ed Miliband was portrayed as Red Ed and was hammered in Middle England (where Elections are won and lost) doesn't give me hope. Corbyn is WAY to the left of EM...

TRB:
I am genuinely terrified that the Democrats are going to do the same thing as the Labour party and choose someone who makes them feel good about themselves but will not win the national vote. If the Democrats choose Sanders, Trump WILL win in Novemeber, and then God help us all.

Look at the comments to this piece by Krugman, which simply points out that a number of left-leaning economists have savaged Sanders's economic plans as being divorced from reality.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/opinion/varieties-of-voodoo.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fpaul-krugman&action=click&contentCollection=opinion&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection&_r=0

Many of the commenters simply refuse to engage with the facts of the argument, and instead claim that anyone who disagrees with them is a fraud or a stooge. I understand where the anger comes from, but my God, there is a massive refusal to engage with the art of the possible there, just like there is over here in the Labour party.

[BobG]

For what it's worth MM, I echo Billy's point that today is exactly (!) like the 1980's. This country is, and always has been, a conservative (small 'c') country. That is one of the few unchanging things we have left. And when the reins of power, patronage, publicity and propaganda line up pretty much all on one side of a political debate, there is only, ever, going to be one winner. And that winner will NOT be Jeremy Corbyn. He's a busted flush now. He'll be a busted flush in a years time and he'll be a bigger busted flush by the time of the next election. If Michael Foot, a better politician, man and brain than JC, couldn't get within 500 miles of winning an election despite that awful woman leading the other side, how on Earth will this guy win? England does not like radicals. It never has. It does not now. And JC is just sooo damn easy to paint as exactly the thing England has never trusted. Why do you think nobody has done anything more than ever so gently attack Corbyn this last several  months? Because the Tories want him as the Labour Party leader going into the next election. They're keeping their powder dry for now. And then they and their cohorts of press barons will crucify him. Tony Blair tried the same thing with Iain Duncan Smith.

Every single person who voted for Jeremy Corbyn should hang their heads in shame. And I'm a guy who likes his economic thoughts. Cast your mind back to Willi Brandt and the 1970's. It was called Realpolitik. It's what JC has not got and never will have. He is a completely failed politician even though he continues to be a torch waving standard bearer for the ideas of the left. The sole result of JC will be a minimum of 10 more years of Tory rule. Do you really wantl George Osborne as Prime Minister in 2020?

BobG

[Yorkiered]

Unfortunately the masses in this country believe the propaganda dished out daily by the tory loving newspapers.

[BobG]

It's a very elitist view.... but it's spot on all the same. I've been scanning the headlines and key points on rthis raised by various papers this morning.  The agenda is downright obvious....

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

Anyone who is ebullient about the rise of Corbyn and Sanders needs to read this article. And in particular the very last paragraph.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/12/jeremy-corbyn-no-senator-bernie-sanders-democrats

This is really, really important. 

[BobG]

Jesus wept! I missed that Ted Cruz statement.

I think I'm going to quite Shakespeare again:

"Some people are born great. Some people achieve greatness. And some people have greatness thrust upon them". I first used that, to describe the United States, in the mid 1970's. It's even more true now. And it's as scary as something very scary indeed.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

You know when I say that I am f**king furious with the self-indulgence of Labour Party members who have gone to a comfort zone in supporting
Corbyn?

http://election-data.co.uk/#/ar_2302

Look at it all, by all means, but if you want the money shot, got to the very last graph.

72% of Labour members support Corbyn. But only 47% think he will win the next Election.

f**k. Me.

[Mike_F]

Aye, but 100% of us on here support Donny Rovers and not a single soul believes we'll win the league.

[Rios]

Unfortunately the masses in this country believe the propaganda dished out daily by the tory loving newspapers.

The influence of the national print press has vastly diminished since the days of Thatcher.  A quick look at how small their sales figures have become and how pitiful their corrosponding websites are (ie replaying old youtube clips as current news) means that they're not the vote winners they once were.  There's a sizeable proportion of the population who never read a paper or watch the news and their only interaction with current events is on their facebook feed.

Corbyn reminds me of Kinnock.  Unelectable and still peddling the unsucessful policies of the 80's which allowed Thatcher to do whatever the hell she wanted and the current lot seem to be going down the same path.

[MachoMadness]

The wait-and-see approach applies until after the referendum, in my opinion. Whether this was his intention or not, Cameron has tied the referendum to his own personality. Given Labour are largely in the Remain camp, they'd be unwise to cripple their own chances by going after Cameron too hard.

Party politics are pretty much a sideshow at the moment. It all seems to be civil war within the parties. How electable Labour are will be clearer after the budget and referendum dust has settled.

Having said that, with the cutting of short money, redrawing of boundaries, gagging of trade unions AND slashing 800,000 off the electoral register (mainly the young and poor - you know, the ones currently hit worst by current policies), you feel the Tories are out to make it so even the most unified, charismatic opposition will struggle to get in. Corbyn's electability may not be the problem - getting anyone not wearing a blue tie in might be a big ask.

[Hounslowrover]

Don't forget packing the unelected Lords with Tory peers too. 

[glosterred]

Don't forget packing the unelected Lords with Tory peers too. 

Don't all parties do that when they're in power?

[Hounslowrover]

No Prime Minister has added so many so quickly, 244 with 56 since the last election and another 40 planned.  Obviously not all are Tories, but the Tories hav always had the largest group in the Lords, but since their defeat on tax credits he has been loading the Lords and looking to introduce the Strathclyde restrictions.  Imagine if Blair, Brown or any Labour PM had done similar.

[BillyStubbsTears]

MM

Another echo of the 80s. Every time the Electorate decline to agree with us that they should vote in a left-wing Govt, we blamed everyone else but ourselves.

The Press
The greed of the Yuppie generation.
The centrist Union leaders who didn't back more radical approaches.
Centrist Labour MPs who disagreed with the left wing.
The SDP.
The TV who didn't give us a fair hearing.

Everyone and everything was to blame. Except our policies and personalities.