2 years ago today

[steve@dcfd]

Quote
Wellens brought most of those to us. He totally wasted what was supposed to be a top 12 league 1 budget.

Hiwula was a waste of money
Cuker Dahlberg and Vilca were loans brought in by the recruitment manager
Gardner was a Trialist so his wages would not have broke the bank.
Dodoo was a wrong and panic decision after the Sunderland fiasco

Woltman
Clayton
Agard
Odubeko
Griffiths
Long
We’re all signed by McSheffrey none of them whether loans or permanent have been any good.

[Campsall rover]

Quote
Wellens brought most of those to us. He totally wasted what was supposed to be a top 12 league 1 budget.

Hiwula was a waste of money
Cuker Dahlberg and Vilca were loans brought in by the recruitment manager
Gardner was a Trialist so his wages would not have broke the bank.
Dodoo was a wrong and panic decision after the Sunderland fiasco

Woltman
Clayton
Agard
Odubeko
Griffiths
Long
We’re all signed by McSheffrey none of them whether loans or permanent have been any good.

You missed out Barlow Steve. 

[Sammy Chung was King]

We need Schofield to be able to find gems that can be worked on and improved. We can’t usually afford tried and tested. It’s his job to build a team we can be proud of. He will get one opportunity to do it. He has to be ruthless and do what’s best for the team. Notice what he has and play the formation that suits it.

[steve@dcfd]

Quote
Wellens brought most of those to us. He totally wasted what was supposed to be a top 12 league 1 budget.

Hiwula was a waste of money
Cuker Dahlberg and Vilca were loans brought in by the recruitment manager
Gardner was a Trialist so his wages would not have broke the bank.
Dodoo was a wrong and panic decision after the Sunderland fiasco

Woltman
Clayton
Agard
Odubeko
Griffiths
Long
We’re all signed by McSheffrey none of them whether loans or permanent have been any good.

You missed out Barlow Steve. 

Yes but he was given an extra contract by GMC to extend his stay. Another not up to the standard but came from Trialist on a cheapn1 year contract.

[Cramby10]

‘Until we find owners who put money in’. The current owners have put plenty of their own money in over the years. We wouldn’t have a club if they hadn’t.
Yes it’s not great at the moment, but there is still hope, a win or two could change things.
The people slagging the board are (yes there thoughts) wrong. We should be thankful. But I suppose I will get slated.

"We wouldn't have a club if they hadn't"

Utter cobblers. I'm getting so sick of being told that the current owners effectively saved the club from oblivion and we must therefore be eternally grateful. They didn't. They took over a well respected, well run football club that flirted with the Championship amd upper end of League 1. A club that had vision and identity. Now look at it.

I would suggest it would be more appropriate to say that they historically invested to a level reasonably expected of football club owners at that level. They didn't save the club from oblivion! There was a Doncaster Rovers before them and there will be one after them. Virtually every single club requires investment from their owners. Have all those owners saved their clubs from oblivion too?! Are all those owners purely altruistic saviours of their clubs? Of course they aren't.

Your words may be more appropriate to the takeover in 98, but certainly not to the efforts of these three.

And no, I have no idea who would or would not have been in the running to take over from them had they decided to sell the club. But to suggest nobody and the only outcome without them to be "no Rovers" is delusional.

Don’t get me wrong I am far from happy with our current situation and seeing how far we have nose dived in only 24  months.
But we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos.
Gavin Baldwin can’t be really blamed. He isn’t the man with the money.
Yes he holds shares but that different. He has brought in large sums of money through Club Doncaster which was his baby as far i I remember. 
Yes GB has been part of the mistakes made in managerial appointments and he should have had a HoF appointed at the club a long time ago.
I have no in depth knowledge on how much reduction in the playing budget we have had in the last 2 to 2 and a half years but it was certainly much much better than relegation last season and mid table in League 2.

Serious Question.  Have Stevenage, Northampton, Carlisle, Salford, Swindon, Barrow, Mansfield, and all the other clubs in this league got better squads than we have.  Our best 14 players at least anyway.
From what I can see only Leyton Orient, Bradford City and Stockport County look to have stronger squads.

We are desperately underachieving due to our managers simply not being very good. That’s how I see it.
DS obviously needs more time but I think he needs some help from an experienced manager/ coach a right hand man who has got multiple tee shirts. Someone who has been round the block, knows the lower leagues like the back of his hand & has promotion on his CV & has therefore got a huge no of contacts.
Think I have just described the manager we need maybe not the no 2.

spot on CR. If he needs an experienced man then it suggests he’s not the man for the job in the first place.

[pigeonhole]

As far as I can see we haven't released a single good player in the past 2 years. We've sold Knoyle who wasn't remotely a good enough L1 defender last season and who presumably has upped his wages by the move. As I've said before, given his defensive frailties last year, we'd have been stupid to match that.

The key problem has been that we have spent wages on numerous players who have been way off the standard required.

Bogle
Dodoo
Hiwula
Bostock
Cukur
Woltman
Clayton
Agard
Odubeko
Griffiths
Dahlberg
Vilca
Gardner
Long

None of them played for Co-op cheques. Few of them have ever looked like strengthening the team. It's been recruitment and injuries that has scuppered us.

BST bang on. Wellens brought most of those to us. He totally wasted what was supposed to be a top 12 league 1 budget.
GM then was left with only scraps available last January.  Having said that we still should have stayed up.

I'd be really interested to know to what extent Wellens was involved in recruitment.

Don't forget we had this guy identifying that talent.  Copps' first decision as Head of Football was to sack him, so I have a feeling this guy is as responsible for the decline as anyone.

What were his credentials? 

[TommyC]

‘Until we find owners who put money in’. The current owners have put plenty of their own money in over the years. We wouldn’t have a club if they hadn’t.
Yes it’s not great at the moment, but there is still hope, a win or two could change things.
The people slagging the board are (yes there thoughts) wrong. We should be thankful. But I suppose I will get slated.

"We wouldn't have a club if they hadn't"

Utter cobblers. I'm getting so sick of being told that the current owners effectively saved the club from oblivion and we must therefore be eternally grateful. They didn't. They took over a well respected, well run football club that flirted with the Championship amd upper end of League 1. A club that had vision and identity. Now look at it.

I would suggest it would be more appropriate to say that they historically invested to a level reasonably expected of football club owners at that level. They didn't save the club from oblivion! There was a Doncaster Rovers before them and there will be one after them. Virtually every single club requires investment from their owners. Have all those owners saved their clubs from oblivion too?! Are all those owners purely altruistic saviours of their clubs? Of course they aren't.

Your words may be more appropriate to the takeover in 98, but certainly not to the efforts of these three.

And no, I have no idea who would or would not have been in the running to take over from them had they decided to sell the club. But to suggest nobody and the only outcome without them to be "no Rovers" is delusional.

Don’t get me wrong I am far from happy with our current situation and seeing how far we have nose dived in only 24  months.
But we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos.
Gavin Baldwin can’t be really blamed. He isn’t the man with the money.
Yes he holds shares but that different. He has brought in large sums of money through Club Doncaster which was his baby as far i I remember. 
Yes GB has been part of the mistakes made in managerial appointments and he should have had a HoF appointed at the club a long time ago.
I have no in depth knowledge on how much reduction in the playing budget we have had in the last 2 to 2 and a half years but it was certainly much much better than relegation last season and mid table in League 2.

Serious Question.  Have Stevenage, Northampton, Carlisle, Salford, Swindon, Barrow, Mansfield, and all the other clubs in this league got better squads than we have.  Our best 14 players at least anyway.
From what I can see only Leyton Orient, Bradford City and Stockport County look to have stronger squads.

We are desperately underachieving due to our managers simply not being very good. That’s how I see it.
DS obviously needs more time but I think he needs some help from an experienced manager/ coach a right hand man who has got multiple tee shirts. Someone who has been round the block, knows the lower leagues like the back of his hand & has promotion on his CV & has therefore got a huge no of contacts.
Think I have just described the manager we need maybe not the no 2.

"we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos."

That's a statement with absolutely nothing whatsoever to justify it. I could just as easily say "we could be a premiership club by now, were it not for these three tight buggers". Both absolute tosh.

We have never played at that level in our 144 year history (including numerous periods under ownership of absolute wrong-uns) and I see nothing in the period 2006 to date  that would lead me to think we were at any increased risk of doing so, either with or without the "three Amigos".  There is absolutely no basis whatsoever to a suggestion that we would be in National League North but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into. 

They took over a League 1/Lower Championship club. For a while, their investment and decision making was appropriate and in keeping with sustaining a club at that level. That is no longer the case and the club now finds itself in the position that it deserves. For that reason i'd prefer them to move on and let someone else have a go, a decision I understand from SMs postings that they are coming around to themselves anyway. Those of you saying we would be non-league without these three probably should have a look at our current league position. We're closer to non-league now than we have been at any point in the last 17 years and thats WITH the "three Amigos"!

Surely there comes a point where we have to look at comments made by departing staff members such as Fergie, Wellens, Knoyle etc, all of whom question the ambition of the current setup and ask ourselves, can it all just be sour grapes? We're clearly an odd club, run in an odd way. For better or for worse, we aren't run by football people and it seems clear we operate it an unusual way. We dont go out and get staff that we want either in managerial roles or on the pitch. We shy away from agents fees and paying transfer fees. We are reportedly known for being somewhat tight with the purse strings. Some may see that as good financial management by proper business people rather than the traditionally terribly managed football club. There is sense to that argument. The problem however is that none of it counts for sh*t if you are in continual decline on the football pitch. Without success on the pitch (or at least a plausible attempt to achieve it) , we're nothing.

[turnbull for england]

Point of order

but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into.


You can't get into non league if you don't exist , I don't care how well constructed an argument is , we would have sunk lower if he'd had his way

[silent majority]

Point of order

but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into.


You can't get into non league if you don't exist , I don't care how well constructed an argument is , we would have sunk lower if he'd had his way

We came close to being bought by a seriously underfunded questionable hedge fund that supposedly was based in Belize but with offices in Grand Cayman. They were desperate to get their hands on the land around the stadium and showed no interest in running a football club.

If that had happened who knows where we might be today, and we wouldn't be anywhere near the Championship or EPL that's for sure.

[TommyC]

Point of order

but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into.


You can't get into non league if you don't exist , I don't care how well constructed an argument is , we would have sunk lower if he'd had his way

Okay, further point of order then if you want to go down that particular rabbit hole......Richardson chose to sell the club to Westferry. He didn't sign the contracts to sell to Westferry with a gun at his head. He bowed to the pressure to cut his losses and get out of our club, but nobody was in a position to actually wrestle the club off him if he wasn't minded to sell it. The scary truth about how close we came to disappearing, is that had his commercial interests (greed) and personal vendetta been better served by letting the club die, he could indeed have let us die. But they weren't, so he didn't. You suggest that the club was wrestled back from him against his will. It wasn't. 

As for SM's comments, I would simply reiterate that unless you have a crystal ball, neither your I know how the Sequentia deal would have worked out. On the face of it and when phrased as you have phrased it there, it looks like a bullet dodged. However, JR clearly felt otherwise and he's no muppet himself when it comes to business. So whilst you and I can form an opinion as to whether or not that was a deal worth doing, that doesn't make our opinion as to how it would have worked out, established fact. I also don't buy your implication that the only possible outcome since 2006 has been a very stark choice between these three current owners, the Sequentia deal or oblivion. Come off it! Surely you don't believe that!?  The same is true for those who say "we wouldn't have a club without these three". It's a gross exaggeration based on nothing.

"If my Uncle had tits he'd be my aunt" etc etc etc

[BillyStubbsTears]

‘Until we find owners who put money in’. The current owners have put plenty of their own money in over the years. We wouldn’t have a club if they hadn’t.
Yes it’s not great at the moment, but there is still hope, a win or two could change things.
The people slagging the board are (yes there thoughts) wrong. We should be thankful. But I suppose I will get slated.

"We wouldn't have a club if they hadn't"

Utter cobblers. I'm getting so sick of being told that the current owners effectively saved the club from oblivion and we must therefore be eternally grateful. They didn't. They took over a well respected, well run football club that flirted with the Championship amd upper end of League 1. A club that had vision and identity. Now look at it.

I would suggest it would be more appropriate to say that they historically invested to a level reasonably expected of football club owners at that level. They didn't save the club from oblivion! There was a Doncaster Rovers before them and there will be one after them. Virtually every single club requires investment from their owners. Have all those owners saved their clubs from oblivion too?! Are all those owners purely altruistic saviours of their clubs? Of course they aren't.

Your words may be more appropriate to the takeover in 98, but certainly not to the efforts of these three.

And no, I have no idea who would or would not have been in the running to take over from them had they decided to sell the club. But to suggest nobody and the only outcome without them to be "no Rovers" is delusional.

Don’t get me wrong I am far from happy with our current situation and seeing how far we have nose dived in only 24  months.
But we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos.
Gavin Baldwin can’t be really blamed. He isn’t the man with the money.
Yes he holds shares but that different. He has brought in large sums of money through Club Doncaster which was his baby as far i I remember. 
Yes GB has been part of the mistakes made in managerial appointments and he should have had a HoF appointed at the club a long time ago.
I have no in depth knowledge on how much reduction in the playing budget we have had in the last 2 to 2 and a half years but it was certainly much much better than relegation last season and mid table in League 2.

Serious Question.  Have Stevenage, Northampton, Carlisle, Salford, Swindon, Barrow, Mansfield, and all the other clubs in this league got better squads than we have.  Our best 14 players at least anyway.
From what I can see only Leyton Orient, Bradford City and Stockport County look to have stronger squads.

We are desperately underachieving due to our managers simply not being very good. That’s how I see it.
DS obviously needs more time but I think he needs some help from an experienced manager/ coach a right hand man who has got multiple tee shirts. Someone who has been round the block, knows the lower leagues like the back of his hand & has promotion on his CV & has therefore got a huge no of contacts.
Think I have just described the manager we need maybe not the no 2.

"we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos."

That's a statement with absolutely nothing whatsoever to justify it. I could just as easily say "we could be a premiership club by now, were it not for these three tight buggers". Both absolute tosh.

We have never played at that level in our 144 year history (including numerous periods under ownership of absolute wrong-uns) and I see nothing in the period 2006 to date  that would lead me to think we were at any increased risk of doing so, either with or without the "three Amigos".  There is absolutely no basis whatsoever to a suggestion that we would be in National League North but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into. 

They took over a League 1/Lower Championship club. For a while, their investment and decision making was appropriate and in keeping with sustaining a club at that level. That is no longer the case and the club now finds itself in the position that it deserves. For that reason i'd prefer them to move on and let someone else have a go, a decision I understand from SMs postings that they are coming around to themselves anyway. Those of you saying we would be non-league without these three probably should have a look at our current league position. We're closer to non-league now than we have been at any point in the last 17 years and thats WITH the "three Amigos"!

Surely there comes a point where we have to look at comments made by departing staff members such as Fergie, Wellens, Knoyle etc, all of whom question the ambition of the current setup and ask ourselves, can it all just be sour grapes? We're clearly an odd club, run in an odd way. For better or for worse, we aren't run by football people and it seems clear we operate it an unusual way. We dont go out and get staff that we want either in managerial roles or on the pitch. We shy away from agents fees and paying transfer fees. We are reportedly known for being somewhat tight with the purse strings. Some may see that as good financial management by proper business people rather than the traditionally terribly managed football club. There is sense to that argument. The problem however is that none of it counts for sh*t if you are in continual decline on the football pitch. Without success on the pitch (or at least a plausible attempt to achieve it) , we're nothing.

Two years ago, the current owners had funded a side that had the best record in L1 for the first half of the season.

Do you have any evidence that they have substantially cut the budget since then as a matter of strategic policy?

And why do we have to listen to people on their way out?

Ferguson had been a failure as our manager, with us consistently underperforming. For 30 months after he (supposedly) left because of lack of financial support, we were in and around the top 7.

Wellens oversaw the worst recruitment in 20 years and was appalling in the way he managed his hand. He had a career to resurrect, so obviously it was all someone else's fault.

Knoyle is a bell end.

I wouldn't wipe my arse on the opinions of any of them. Why do you set so much store by them?

[Filo]

Point of order

but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into.


You can't get into non league if you don't exist , I don't care how well constructed an argument is , we would have sunk lower if he'd had his way

Okay, further point of order then if you want to go down that particular rabbit hole......Richardson chose to sell the club to Westferry. He didn't sign the contracts to sell to Westferry with a gun at his head. He bowed to the pressure to cut his losses and get out of our club, but nobody was in a position to actually wrestle the club off him if he wasn't minded to sell it. The scary truth about how close we came to disappearing, is that had his commercial interests (greed) and personal vendetta been better served by letting the club die, he could indeed have let us die. But they weren't, so he didn't. You suggest that the club was wrestled back from him against his will. It wasn't. 

As for SM's comments, I would simply reiterate that unless you have a crystal ball, neither your I know how the Sequentia deal would have worked out. On the face of it and when phrased as you have phrased it there, it looks like a bullet dodged. However, JR clearly felt otherwise and he's no muppet himself when it comes to business. So whilst you and I can form an opinion as to whether or not that was a deal worth doing, that doesn't make our opinion as to how it would have worked out, established fact. I also don't buy your implication that the only possible outcome since 2006 has been a very stark choice between these three current owners, the Sequentia deal or oblivion. Come off it! Surely you don't believe that!?  The same is true for those who say "we wouldn't have a club without these three". It's a gross exaggeration based on nothing.

"If my Uncle had tits he'd be my aunt" etc etc etc

Sequentia no longer exist, if they had taken us over, by default we would no longer exist

[TommyC]

‘Until we find owners who put money in’. The current owners have put plenty of their own money in over the years. We wouldn’t have a club if they hadn’t.
Yes it’s not great at the moment, but there is still hope, a win or two could change things.
The people slagging the board are (yes there thoughts) wrong. We should be thankful. But I suppose I will get slated.

"We wouldn't have a club if they hadn't"

Utter cobblers. I'm getting so sick of being told that the current owners effectively saved the club from oblivion and we must therefore be eternally grateful. They didn't. They took over a well respected, well run football club that flirted with the Championship amd upper end of League 1. A club that had vision and identity. Now look at it.

I would suggest it would be more appropriate to say that they historically invested to a level reasonably expected of football club owners at that level. They didn't save the club from oblivion! There was a Doncaster Rovers before them and there will be one after them. Virtually every single club requires investment from their owners. Have all those owners saved their clubs from oblivion too?! Are all those owners purely altruistic saviours of their clubs? Of course they aren't.

Your words may be more appropriate to the takeover in 98, but certainly not to the efforts of these three.

And no, I have no idea who would or would not have been in the running to take over from them had they decided to sell the club. But to suggest nobody and the only outcome without them to be "no Rovers" is delusional.

Don’t get me wrong I am far from happy with our current situation and seeing how far we have nose dived in only 24  months.
But we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos.
Gavin Baldwin can’t be really blamed. He isn’t the man with the money.
Yes he holds shares but that different. He has brought in large sums of money through Club Doncaster which was his baby as far i I remember. 
Yes GB has been part of the mistakes made in managerial appointments and he should have had a HoF appointed at the club a long time ago.
I have no in depth knowledge on how much reduction in the playing budget we have had in the last 2 to 2 and a half years but it was certainly much much better than relegation last season and mid table in League 2.

Serious Question.  Have Stevenage, Northampton, Carlisle, Salford, Swindon, Barrow, Mansfield, and all the other clubs in this league got better squads than we have.  Our best 14 players at least anyway.
From what I can see only Leyton Orient, Bradford City and Stockport County look to have stronger squads.

We are desperately underachieving due to our managers simply not being very good. That’s how I see it.
DS obviously needs more time but I think he needs some help from an experienced manager/ coach a right hand man who has got multiple tee shirts. Someone who has been round the block, knows the lower leagues like the back of his hand & has promotion on his CV & has therefore got a huge no of contacts.
Think I have just described the manager we need maybe not the no 2.

"we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos."

That's a statement with absolutely nothing whatsoever to justify it. I could just as easily say "we could be a premiership club by now, were it not for these three tight buggers". Both absolute tosh.

We have never played at that level in our 144 year history (including numerous periods under ownership of absolute wrong-uns) and I see nothing in the period 2006 to date  that would lead me to think we were at any increased risk of doing so, either with or without the "three Amigos".  There is absolutely no basis whatsoever to a suggestion that we would be in National League North but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into. 

They took over a League 1/Lower Championship club. For a while, their investment and decision making was appropriate and in keeping with sustaining a club at that level. That is no longer the case and the club now finds itself in the position that it deserves. For that reason i'd prefer them to move on and let someone else have a go, a decision I understand from SMs postings that they are coming around to themselves anyway. Those of you saying we would be non-league without these three probably should have a look at our current league position. We're closer to non-league now than we have been at any point in the last 17 years and thats WITH the "three Amigos"!

Surely there comes a point where we have to look at comments made by departing staff members such as Fergie, Wellens, Knoyle etc, all of whom question the ambition of the current setup and ask ourselves, can it all just be sour grapes? We're clearly an odd club, run in an odd way. For better or for worse, we aren't run by football people and it seems clear we operate it an unusual way. We dont go out and get staff that we want either in managerial roles or on the pitch. We shy away from agents fees and paying transfer fees. We are reportedly known for being somewhat tight with the purse strings. Some may see that as good financial management by proper business people rather than the traditionally terribly managed football club. There is sense to that argument. The problem however is that none of it counts for sh*t if you are in continual decline on the football pitch. Without success on the pitch (or at least a plausible attempt to achieve it) , we're nothing.

Two years ago, the current owners had funded a side that had the best record in L1 for the first half of the season.

Do you have any evidence that they have substantially cut the budget since then as a matter of strategic policy?

Of course not. But if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

“We are given a budget, through EFL figures – so it’s not finger in the air, it’s fact – that basically puts us as the seventh, eighth or sometimes flirting with the sixth highest budget in the league."

Those are the words of Baldwin in 2018 when referring to the "Five Year Plan" for Championship football (how's that working out lol).  I wonder if someone could definitively confirm if it remains the case that Doncaster Rovers currently operates under a budget that would rank sixth in League 1? Saying the budget is the same as it always was isn't quite the same as saying it ranks at the same level it did five years ago against our competitors is it.

Totally appreciate your point about that side at the top of League 1 and I know it's a point you have made before. It's a valid point. However, one could argue that side was built on sand and was the product of an over-reliance on the loans market rather than investing in the playing squad for the longer term, partciularly following the sale of key players. The club itself publicly stated that this was the way things were going to run in future. I think with McCann and to a lesser extent Moore (who I still believe to be hugely overrated) they managed to make that policy work, perhaps by luck rather than good judgement especially with Moore. There is also an argument that both McCann and Moore were still benefiting from a number of quality players under permanent contracts that were recruited by Ferguson that they had in their sides. Quality which has to date not been replaced despite significant fees being recouped.

We may not like or have much fondness for departing employees such as Ferguson, Wellens and Knoyle and there will I am sure be an element of sour grapes (although I fail to see why Knoyle would harbour any ill will) but we can't just ignore their parting shots about our lack of ambition.

And then when you look at managerial appointments like Butler and McSheffrey, following allegedly lengthy recruitment processes and applications of the highest calibre.....

So no, I don't have any concrete evidence and I probably should have qualified this as an informed opinion rather than stating it as fact (I'm guilty of it too!).  But I think it's a safe bet we aren't currently operating with a budget that would rank 6th in League 1. Over to you Silent Majority.......

If someone from the club can categorically confirm that our budget would rank 6/7/8 in League 1 (or higher) as we sit here today, I will happily retract any accusation that the budget has been reduced and agree with you BST that it is poor appointments and recruitment rather than budgetary constraints. The figures are by Baldwin's own admission very easy to quantify so hopefully it should be an easy one for the club to put to bed.

[TommyC]

Point of order

but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into.


You can't get into non league if you don't exist , I don't care how well constructed an argument is , we would have sunk lower if he'd had his way

Okay, further point of order then if you want to go down that particular rabbit hole......Richardson chose to sell the club to Westferry. He didn't sign the contracts to sell to Westferry with a gun at his head. He bowed to the pressure to cut his losses and get out of our club, but nobody was in a position to actually wrestle the club off him if he wasn't minded to sell it. The scary truth about how close we came to disappearing, is that had his commercial interests (greed) and personal vendetta been better served by letting the club die, he could indeed have let us die. But they weren't, so he didn't. You suggest that the club was wrestled back from him against his will. It wasn't. 

As for SM's comments, I would simply reiterate that unless you have a crystal ball, neither your I know how the Sequentia deal would have worked out. On the face of it and when phrased as you have phrased it there, it looks like a bullet dodged. However, JR clearly felt otherwise and he's no muppet himself when it comes to business. So whilst you and I can form an opinion as to whether or not that was a deal worth doing, that doesn't make our opinion as to how it would have worked out, established fact. I also don't buy your implication that the only possible outcome since 2006 has been a very stark choice between these three current owners, the Sequentia deal or oblivion. Come off it! Surely you don't believe that!?  The same is true for those who say "we wouldn't have a club without these three". It's a gross exaggeration based on nothing.

"If my Uncle had tits he'd be my aunt" etc etc etc

Sequentia no longer exist, if they had taken us over, by default we would no longer exist

Er okaaaay.......

So in this hypothetical world, they couldn't have sold us on?

This is a silly argument that has little relevance to the point. 

[turnbull for england]

Or hypothetically we could have been asset stripped of all the land etc , and then sold on to the next lot of benevolent hedge funds just waiting to take us to the Premier. Pointless subjecture as you say . Good job we never had to find out

[pib]

‘Until we find owners who put money in’. The current owners have put plenty of their own money in over the years. We wouldn’t have a club if they hadn’t.
Yes it’s not great at the moment, but there is still hope, a win or two could change things.
The people slagging the board are (yes there thoughts) wrong. We should be thankful. But I suppose I will get slated.

"We wouldn't have a club if they hadn't"

Utter cobblers. I'm getting so sick of being told that the current owners effectively saved the club from oblivion and we must therefore be eternally grateful. They didn't. They took over a well respected, well run football club that flirted with the Championship amd upper end of League 1. A club that had vision and identity. Now look at it.

I would suggest it would be more appropriate to say that they historically invested to a level reasonably expected of football club owners at that level. They didn't save the club from oblivion! There was a Doncaster Rovers before them and there will be one after them. Virtually every single club requires investment from their owners. Have all those owners saved their clubs from oblivion too?! Are all those owners purely altruistic saviours of their clubs? Of course they aren't.

Your words may be more appropriate to the takeover in 98, but certainly not to the efforts of these three.

And no, I have no idea who would or would not have been in the running to take over from them had they decided to sell the club. But to suggest nobody and the only outcome without them to be "no Rovers" is delusional.

Don’t get me wrong I am far from happy with our current situation and seeing how far we have nose dived in only 24  months.
But we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos.
Gavin Baldwin can’t be really blamed. He isn’t the man with the money.
Yes he holds shares but that different. He has brought in large sums of money through Club Doncaster which was his baby as far i I remember. 
Yes GB has been part of the mistakes made in managerial appointments and he should have had a HoF appointed at the club a long time ago.
I have no in depth knowledge on how much reduction in the playing budget we have had in the last 2 to 2 and a half years but it was certainly much much better than relegation last season and mid table in League 2.

Serious Question.  Have Stevenage, Northampton, Carlisle, Salford, Swindon, Barrow, Mansfield, and all the other clubs in this league got better squads than we have.  Our best 14 players at least anyway.
From what I can see only Leyton Orient, Bradford City and Stockport County look to have stronger squads.

We are desperately underachieving due to our managers simply not being very good. That’s how I see it.
DS obviously needs more time but I think he needs some help from an experienced manager/ coach a right hand man who has got multiple tee shirts. Someone who has been round the block, knows the lower leagues like the back of his hand & has promotion on his CV & has therefore got a huge no of contacts.
Think I have just described the manager we need maybe not the no 2.

"we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos."

That's a statement with absolutely nothing whatsoever to justify it. I could just as easily say "we could be a premiership club by now, were it not for these three tight buggers". Both absolute tosh.

We have never played at that level in our 144 year history (including numerous periods under ownership of absolute wrong-uns) and I see nothing in the period 2006 to date  that would lead me to think we were at any increased risk of doing so, either with or without the "three Amigos".  There is absolutely no basis whatsoever to a suggestion that we would be in National League North but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into. 

They took over a League 1/Lower Championship club. For a while, their investment and decision making was appropriate and in keeping with sustaining a club at that level. That is no longer the case and the club now finds itself in the position that it deserves. For that reason i'd prefer them to move on and let someone else have a go, a decision I understand from SMs postings that they are coming around to themselves anyway. Those of you saying we would be non-league without these three probably should have a look at our current league position. We're closer to non-league now than we have been at any point in the last 17 years and thats WITH the "three Amigos"!

Surely there comes a point where we have to look at comments made by departing staff members such as Fergie, Wellens, Knoyle etc, all of whom question the ambition of the current setup and ask ourselves, can it all just be sour grapes? We're clearly an odd club, run in an odd way. For better or for worse, we aren't run by football people and it seems clear we operate it an unusual way. We dont go out and get staff that we want either in managerial roles or on the pitch. We shy away from agents fees and paying transfer fees. We are reportedly known for being somewhat tight with the purse strings. Some may see that as good financial management by proper business people rather than the traditionally terribly managed football club. There is sense to that argument. The problem however is that none of it counts for sh*t if you are in continual decline on the football pitch. Without success on the pitch (or at least a plausible attempt to achieve it) , we're nothing.

Two years ago, the current owners had funded a side that had the best record in L1 for the first half of the season.

Do you have any evidence that they have substantially cut the budget since then as a matter of strategic policy?

Of course not. But if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

“We are given a budget, through EFL figures – so it’s not finger in the air, it’s fact – that basically puts us as the seventh, eighth or sometimes flirting with the sixth highest budget in the league."

Those are the words of Baldwin in 2018 when referring to the "Five Year Plan" for Championship football (how's that working out lol).  I wonder if someone could definitively confirm if it remains the case that Doncaster Rovers currently operates under a budget that would rank sixth in League 1? Saying the budget is the same as it always was isn't quite the same as saying it ranks at the same level it did five years ago against our competitors is it.

Totally appreciate your point about that side at the top of League 1 and I know it's a point you have made before. It's a valid point. However, one could argue that side was built on sand and was the product of an over-reliance on the loans market rather than investing in the playing squad for the longer term, partciularly following the sale of key players. The club itself publicly stated that this was the way things were going to run in future. I think with McCann and to a lesser extent Moore (who I still believe to be hugely overrated) they managed to make that policy work, perhaps by luck rather than good judgement especially with Moore. There is also an argument that both McCann and Moore were still benefiting from a number of quality players under permanent contracts that were recruited by Ferguson that they had in their sides. Quality which has to date not been replaced despite significant fees being recouped.

We may not like or have much fondness for departing employees such as Ferguson, Wellens and Knoyle and there will I am sure be an element of sour grapes (although I fail to see why Knoyle would harbour any ill will) but we can't just ignore their parting shots about our lack of ambition.

And then when you look at managerial appointments like Butler and McSheffrey, following allegedly lengthy recruitment processes and applications of the highest calibre.....

So no, I don't have any concrete evidence and I probably should have qualified this as an informed opinion rather than stating it as fact (I'm guilty of it too!).  But I think it's a safe bet we aren't currently operating with a budget that would rank 6th in League 1. Over to you Silent Majority.......

If someone from the club can categorically confirm that our budget would rank 6/7/8 in League 1 (or higher) as we sit here today, I will happily retract any accusation that the budget has been reduced and agree with you BST that it is poor appointments and recruitment rather than budgetary constraints. The figures are by Baldwin's own admission very easy to quantify so hopefully it should be an easy one for the club to put to bed.

Further to the point, if we are currently operating with a mid-table L1 budget, or even a top-end L2 budget (which has been stated on here), then what the Christing hell have the managers, players and recruitment staff done to land us in the bottom half of L2? If I was TB, Blunt or Baldwin, I'd be screaming blue murder and asking serious questions of where this money has been pissed away to to land us with the crock of shit squad we've got at the moment. I can only assume as serious business people that they are.

[adamtherover]

‘Until we find owners who put money in’. The current owners have put plenty of their own money in over the years. We wouldn’t have a club if they hadn’t.
Yes it’s not great at the moment, but there is still hope, a win or two could change things.
The people slagging the board are (yes there thoughts) wrong. We should be thankful. But I suppose I will get slated.

"We wouldn't have a club if they hadn't"

Utter cobblers. I'm getting so sick of being told that the current owners effectively saved the club from oblivion and we must therefore be eternally grateful. They didn't. They took over a well respected, well run football club that flirted with the Championship amd upper end of League 1. A club that had vision and identity. Now look at it.

I would suggest it would be more appropriate to say that they historically invested to a level reasonably expected of football club owners at that level. They didn't save the club from oblivion! There was a Doncaster Rovers before them and there will be one after them. Virtually every single club requires investment from their owners. Have all those owners saved their clubs from oblivion too?! Are all those owners purely altruistic saviours of their clubs? Of course they aren't.

Your words may be more appropriate to the takeover in 98, but certainly not to the efforts of these three.

And no, I have no idea who would or would not have been in the running to take over from them had they decided to sell the club. But to suggest nobody and the only outcome without them to be "no Rovers" is delusional.

Don’t get me wrong I am far from happy with our current situation and seeing how far we have nose dived in only 24  months.
But we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos.
Gavin Baldwin can’t be really blamed. He isn’t the man with the money.
Yes he holds shares but that different. He has brought in large sums of money through Club Doncaster which was his baby as far i I remember. 
Yes GB has been part of the mistakes made in managerial appointments and he should have had a HoF appointed at the club a long time ago.
I have no in depth knowledge on how much reduction in the playing budget we have had in the last 2 to 2 and a half years but it was certainly much much better than relegation last season and mid table in League 2.

Serious Question.  Have Stevenage, Northampton, Carlisle, Salford, Swindon, Barrow, Mansfield, and all the other clubs in this league got better squads than we have.  Our best 14 players at least anyway.
From what I can see only Leyton Orient, Bradford City and Stockport County look to have stronger squads.

We are desperately underachieving due to our managers simply not being very good. That’s how I see it.
DS obviously needs more time but I think he needs some help from an experienced manager/ coach a right hand man who has got multiple tee shirts. Someone who has been round the block, knows the lower leagues like the back of his hand & has promotion on his CV & has therefore got a huge no of contacts.
Think I have just described the manager we need maybe not the no 2.

"we could quite easily be a National League North club without our 3 Amigos."

That's a statement with absolutely nothing whatsoever to justify it. I could just as easily say "we could be a premiership club by now, were it not for these three tight buggers". Both absolute tosh.

We have never played at that level in our 144 year history (including numerous periods under ownership of absolute wrong-uns) and I see nothing in the period 2006 to date  that would lead me to think we were at any increased risk of doing so, either with or without the "three Amigos".  There is absolutely no basis whatsoever to a suggestion that we would be in National League North but for these three. Christ, even under Richardson we never sunk that low and we were an absolute basket case at that point compared to the professional outfit this lot bought into. 

They took over a League 1/Lower Championship club. For a while, their investment and decision making was appropriate and in keeping with sustaining a club at that level. That is no longer the case and the club now finds itself in the position that it deserves. For that reason i'd prefer them to move on and let someone else have a go, a decision I understand from SMs postings that they are coming around to themselves anyway. Those of you saying we would be non-league without these three probably should have a look at our current league position. We're closer to non-league now than we have been at any point in the last 17 years and thats WITH the "three Amigos"!

Surely there comes a point where we have to look at comments made by departing staff members such as Fergie, Wellens, Knoyle etc, all of whom question the ambition of the current setup and ask ourselves, can it all just be sour grapes? We're clearly an odd club, run in an odd way. For better or for worse, we aren't run by football people and it seems clear we operate it an unusual way. We dont go out and get staff that we want either in managerial roles or on the pitch. We shy away from agents fees and paying transfer fees. We are reportedly known for being somewhat tight with the purse strings. Some may see that as good financial management by proper business people rather than the traditionally terribly managed football club. There is sense to that argument. The problem however is that none of it counts for sh*t if you are in continual decline on the football pitch. Without success on the pitch (or at least a plausible attempt to achieve it) , we're nothing.

Two years ago, the current owners had funded a side that had the best record in L1 for the first half of the season.

Do you have any evidence that they have substantially cut the budget since then as a matter of strategic policy?

Of course not. But if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

“We are given a budget, through EFL figures – so it’s not finger in the air, it’s fact – that basically puts us as the seventh, eighth or sometimes flirting with the sixth highest budget in the league."

Those are the words of Baldwin in 2018 when referring to the "Five Year Plan" for Championship football (how's that working out lol).  I wonder if someone could definitively confirm if it remains the case that Doncaster Rovers currently operates under a budget that would rank sixth in League 1? Saying the budget is the same as it always was isn't quite the same as saying it ranks at the same level it did five years ago against our competitors is it.

Totally appreciate your point about that side at the top of League 1 and I know it's a point you have made before. It's a valid point. However, one could argue that side was built on sand and was the product of an over-reliance on the loans market rather than investing in the playing squad for the longer term, partciularly following the sale of key players. The club itself publicly stated that this was the way things were going to run in future. I think with McCann and to a lesser extent Moore (who I still believe to be hugely overrated) they managed to make that policy work, perhaps by luck rather than good judgement especially with Moore. There is also an argument that both McCann and Moore were still benefiting from a number of quality players under permanent contracts that were recruited by Ferguson that they had in their sides. Quality which has to date not been replaced despite significant fees being recouped.

We may not like or have much fondness for departing employees such as Ferguson, Wellens and Knoyle and there will I am sure be an element of sour grapes (although I fail to see why Knoyle would harbour any ill will) but we can't just ignore their parting shots about our lack of ambition.

And then when you look at managerial appointments like Butler and McSheffrey, following allegedly lengthy recruitment processes and applications of the highest calibre.....

So no, I don't have any concrete evidence and I probably should have qualified this as an informed opinion rather than stating it as fact (I'm guilty of it too!).  But I think it's a safe bet we aren't currently operating with a budget that would rank 6th in League 1. Over to you Silent Majority.......

If someone from the club can categorically confirm that our budget would rank 6/7/8 in League 1 (or higher) as we sit here today, I will happily retract any accusation that the budget has been reduced and agree with you BST that it is poor appointments and recruitment rather than budgetary constraints. The figures are by Baldwin's own admission very easy to quantify so hopefully it should be an easy one for the club to put to bed.

Further to the point, if we are currently operating with a mid-table L1 budget, or even a top-end L2 budget (which has been stated on here), then what the Christing hell have the managers, players and recruitment staff done to land us in the bottom half of L2? If I was TB, Blunt or Baldwin, I'd be screaming blue murder and asking serious questions of where this money has been pissed away to to land us with the crock of shit squad we've got at the moment. I can only assume as serious business people that they are.

up to recently, Everton had spent 500 million, and are flirting with relegation!!,. As stated, you can have all the money in the world, but if it's not spent wisely ....

[since-1969]

What a horrendous decline.

There are some who think things are ok under the Baldwin Blunt & Bramall trio . The another  B that comes to mind .