American XL Bully

[ncRover]

This isn’t a discussion about German shepherds and Rottweilers. Which no one here has a problem with.

Different breeds have different temperaments. That temperament can be selected based on the desired traits that fit a breed’s potential purpose. E.g border collies were bred to herd sheep. Retrievers need to retrieve. Dogs in general bred to be pets. What are these Bully’s bred for?

Gaz is right. Yes in some cases nature can overcome nurture, but we are speaking in terms of general trends and patterns.

95% of those who go to prison for violent crimes are men. Is that nurture, or is it because men on average are biologically and physiologically more aggressive?

[drfchound]

Not necessarily Nudga, I’m a dog lover and owner and I think the ban is the most sensible and practical way to go about it. Anything else can’t realistically be implemented.

There’s irresponsible dog owners with badly trained dogs of other breeds (including I’m sure some big and powerful ones) but we aren’t seeing a spate of stories about attacks with other breeds. There’s a pattern here.

We are overlooking the fact that these Bully’s are selected for breeding based on their aggression, which coupled with their size and bite makes them incredibly dangerous.

You could put an XL bully with behavioural issues with a perfect dog trainer, but it could still overpower them and get loose from its lead if it wanted to. And when they do good luck stopping one.

Other breeds are available and human lives are obviously far more important.

It's more of the generalisation that big dog breeds are dangerous killers.
I've had German Shepherds and Rottweilers for twenty years now and I get the comments daily about how dangerous they are, most of the time while the other person's little Terrier is kicking off and trying to bite my dogs face, but then it's "funny" because theirs has got "small man syndrome".

There will be hundreds of babies and toddlers attacked and bitten by small dogs but it never makes the news. I know obviously large breeds do more damage and it's harder to control them once they've gone but it's that that sells papers.

I agree that the XL bully is usually owned by council estate scratters or no neck jacked up body builders who have zero clue about training a dog and more importantly, socializing it.
To do these  two thjngs you've got to get them out twice a day early in their life in busy park areas so that they are constantly coming into contact with people and other dogs and using treats and positive actions as reward for going anything good, no matter how trivial.

Usually, these Kitsons just take them to the shop for a can of energy drink or the local park where kids are playing with footballs etc.

I've seen large breed rescue dogs with massive problems become a totally different dog within 6 months because the owner took the time to train them and socialize them.

Great post Nudga.
I have had four German Shepherds over the years and they have all been superbly well behaved and sociable with other dogs and people.
All down to taking time to train them properly.
I guess that I’m one of those people who likes to share his life with a 40kg animal.

It’s nothing to do with the size is it? It’s their mentality and their capacity to do damage.

By the way, if you believe nurture can overcome all aspects of nature, science says you are wrong.

I know it isn’t about size Gaz but someone earlier in the thread said that they didn’t understand why anyone would want to live with a 40kg animal and I was stating that I am one of those people.
Maybe people who haven’t had a dog as a pet wouldn’t understand the benefits of doing so, as long as the dog is well trained and trustworthy.

[Batleyred]

Not necessarily Nudga, I’m a dog lover and owner and I think the ban is the most sensible and practical way to go about it. Anything else can’t realistically be implemented.

There’s irresponsible dog owners with badly trained dogs of other breeds (including I’m sure some big and powerful ones) but we aren’t seeing a spate of stories about attacks with other breeds. There’s a pattern here.

We are overlooking the fact that these Bully’s are selected for breeding based on their aggression, which coupled with their size and bite makes them incredibly dangerous.

You could put an XL bully with behavioural issues with a perfect dog trainer, but it could still overpower them and get loose from its lead if it wanted to. And when they do good luck stopping one.

Other breeds are available and human lives are obviously far more important.

It's more of the generalisation that big dog breeds are dangerous killers.
I've had German Shepherds and Rottweilers for twenty years now and I get the comments daily about how dangerous they are, most of the time while the other person's little Terrier is kicking off and trying to bite my dogs face, but then it's "funny" because theirs has got "small man syndrome".

There will be hundreds of babies and toddlers attacked and bitten by small dogs but it never makes the news. I know obviously large breeds do more damage and it's harder to control them once they've gone but it's that that sells papers.

I agree that the XL bully is usually owned by council estate scratters or no neck jacked up body builders who have zero clue about training a dog and more importantly, socializing it.
To do these  two thjngs you've got to get them out twice a day early in their life in busy park areas so that they are constantly coming into contact with people and other dogs and using treats and positive actions as reward for going anything good, no matter how trivial.

Usually, these Kitsons just take them to the shop for a can of energy drink or the local park where kids are playing with footballs etc.

I've seen large breed rescue dogs with massive problems become a totally different dog within 6 months because the owner took the time to train them and socialize them.

Great post Nudga.
I have had four German Shepherds over the years and they have all been superbly well behaved and sociable with other dogs and people.
All down to taking time to train them properly.
I guess that I’m one of those people who likes to share his life with a 40kg animal.

It’s nothing to do with the size is it? It’s their mentality and their capacity to do damage.

By the way, if you believe nurture can overcome all aspects of nature, science says you are wrong.

I know it isn’t about size Gaz but someone earlier in the thread said that they didn’t understand why anyone would want to live with a 40kg animal and I was stating that I am one of those people.
Maybe people who haven’t had a dog as a pet wouldn’t understand the benefits of doing so, as long as the dog is well trained and trustworthy.

Exactly hound, I've Caucasian Ovachakras and Central asain shepherds, all are 75kg plus and are trained to a high standard. Both breeds fight of bears and wolves from livestock many still do in regions around the world. Training is key and knowing the correct type of training is even more key. Bad breeding in the xl has ruined the breed like many others but not to this lethal extent. Sad all round caused by a few.

[ravenrover]

Didn't you lose your last dog Hound a couple of years back? What breed was it? Have you replaced it?
We lost our 2nd Springer a few years back, no more I said. I was the one who always made that last visit to the vets. Thankfully I changed my mind and we now have a 3 year old Cocker, she is probably in her own way the best dog we have had she is brilliant with our young grandkids but all our dogs were loved and "trained" to a certain extent, but were chosen for their breed all 3 being spaniels.
That I think is part of the problem size might not matter  we meet a pair of lovely Rottweilers on our morning walk which are so well trained, but owning something the size of a bully with that sort of temprement and a bad owner leads to all sorts of behavioural problems
 My friends son has a ridgeback, he has two young children  which it loves but I wouldn't go anywhere near it having seen how his landrover rocks as the dog goes crazy when anyone gets near it. He exercises it away from other dogs for some reason, wonder why that is.
Take a bully away and these bad owners will always find an alternative

[drfchound]

Didn't you lose your last dog Hound a couple of years back? What breed was it? Have you replaced it?
We lost our 2nd Springer a few years back, no more I said. I was the one who always made that last visit to the vets. Thankfully I changed my mind and we now have a 3 year old Cocker, she is probably in her own way the best dog we have had she is brilliant with our young grandkids but all our dogs were loved and "trained" to a certain extent, but were chosen for their breed all 3 being spaniels.
That I think is part of the problem size might not matter  we meet a pair of lovely Rottweilers on our morning walk which are so well trained, but owning something the size of a bully with that sort of temprement and a bad owner leads to all sorts of behavioural problems
 My friends son has a ridgeback, he has two young children  which it loves but I wouldn't go anywhere near it having seen how his landrover rocks as the dog goes crazy when anyone gets near it. He exercises it away from other dogs for some reason, wonder why that is.
Take a bully away and these bad owners will always find an alternative

Raven, you have remembered well.
It is just under two years since I had to make the trip to the vets with my gentle giant German Shepherd.
He was such a big softie and totally ball focussed.
We got another GSD five months after he left us and this one is now 17 months old and is beginning to be a very good dog.
Very sociable with other dogs and people and is loved by our grandchildren.

[ravenrover]

Reckon that agrees with my point Hound

[BillyStubbsTears]

Alright. I'm converted.

https://twitter.com/MailOnline/status/1702696264100409673

[ncRover]

“The breed has been responsible for half of all dog-related deaths in the UK since 2021, killing nine people including three children”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/04/american-bully-dog-breed-spotlight-uk-fatal-attacks?ssp=1&setlang=en-GB&safesearch=moderate

“According to another news article, American XL Bullies have been involved in 44% of attacks on people in 2023, and 75% of fatalities since 2021, despite only being around 1% of the UK dog population.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/how-many-american-xl-bully-attacks-have-there-been-in-uk-why-dog-breed-is-being-banned-after-multiple-deaths/ar-AA1gM95s

Insurmountable evidence.

But yeah let’s listen to Boris and a meme someone’s auntie put on Facebook.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nc.

Err...have a stop and think about the unintended irony of what he says.

[ncRover]

Something must be going over my head here Billy sorry

[BillyStubbsTears]

Johnson saying "It's not the dog that's the problem. It's the owner."

Like a moment of inadvertent self awareness of the damage he's done.

[ncRover]

https://x.com/politicsjoe_uk/status/1705676222280192471?s=46

Can’t believe this isn’t a mockumentary

[Donny Dub]

All dogs bite, it’s what they do to test, to taste and to fight.  The border collie has the worst record for bite injuries at A&E in Galway. 
The problem is the bully’s bite power it’s 300psi!

[ravenrover]

Walking around Buttermere yesterday my small very friendly Cocker off the lead was attacked by a Staffie off the lead. When I politely suggested to this rather large younger gentleman that his Staffie should be on a lead he said it was my dogs fault for approaching his and walked off spouting profanities. This is exactly the problem irresponsible owners!
Thankfully there was no damage done to my dog.

[knockers]

Did your dog approach his?
I keep my dog on a lead as it doesn’t like other dogs running up to it. If a dog does this and mine bites it then it’s their fault.

[ncRover]

Yes but if the staffy was off the lead that allows the other dog owner to assume that dog is friendly

[ravenrover]

Both dogs off lead, both in front of owners, so to say one approached the other is incorrect and was just his excuse for his dogs behaviour. He actually called his dog back with no response.They both had a sniff at each other, mine carried on past, the staffie turned and attacked. As I said no damage done but no remorse from staffie owner and tried blaming my dog for his attacking it. The older bloke with him, his Dad?, looked surprised and said something to the other bloke who started ranting at him as they walked away about it not being his dogs fault that it attacked mine.
Regarding leads we always put ours on a lead if we approach another already on a lead, I think it's fair to assume if a dog is off the lead that it is a "safe" dog.
I agree with you regarding your point about a dog on it's lead being defensive

[knockers]

I would also expect a dog not on its lead to be a safe dog with good recall. Your encounter with the owner sounds all too familiar!
Glad your dogs OK Raven

[ravenrover]

Thanks Knockers she's fine