10 mins

[Wild Rover]

leedshayter wrote:

i played at a good standard mr yellow snow so no a good striker when i see one heffs is not in the box when we are attacking he just strolls about out wide .billy would be on the peno spot waiting to pounce

Tell us what standard?, i can guarentee i have played higher, and can also guarentee you talk nonsense.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

He is right though, Heff doesn't get in those areas that Sharp and even Hayter do.  We have fans wanting us to move to the next level, and then fans saying Heffs should be kept, Heff will not take us up to the play off area, simple as that.  What is it to be, stagnation or ambition?

[Wild Rover]

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

He is right though, Heff doesn't get in those areas that Sharp and even Hayter do.  We have fans wanting us to move to the next level, and then fans saying Heffs should be kept, Heff will not take us up to the play off area, simple as that.  What is it to be, stagnation or ambition?

That is completely wrong BFYP. What is more you know it. How many games did Heffernan start Last season, and how many Goals did he score. I might suggest its on a par with what Billy Sharp has done this season, and far in excess of James Hayter. Therefore he MUST take up the positions you claim he is incapable of taking up. On top of that how many games this season has BS fired blanks in when he has been fit and started, possibly more than Heffs Last season. Sorry but i just cannot agree with you or LH.

[wilts rover]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

Pudding. That post is precisely what folk mean when they say that statistics can be made to mean anything you want.

Blimey, I have read some rubbish and other drivel on this forum (even written some of it meself) but NEVER did I ever think I would see a post where BST slags someone of for using stats!!! I am so dumbstruck I almost cant write anymore....

but...one more useless fact to throw into the argument, Heffs scored his goals last season in a team that contained for most of the time the creative talents of, Stock, Wellens, Woods and Coppinger. This season Billy Sharp has scored most of his goals in a midfield that contained the creative talent of Mark Wilson and A.N. Other

[VikingJames]

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

He is right though, Heff doesn't get in those areas that Sharp and even Hayter do.  We have fans wanting us to move to the next level, and then fans saying Heffs should be kept, Heff will not take us up to the play off area, simple as that.  What is it to be, stagnation or ambition?

Heff doesn't get into the right areas to score.

Okay then. 10 goals last season, let's 'ave a butchers...

Palace away - On the end of a set piece to head home.
Forest away - Goal 1: On the end of a cross to head in at the back post.
Goal 2: Following in a rebound on the edge of the 6 yard box to score.
Norwich home - Back post, right place at the right time to nod in from a rebounded shot.
Owls home - Ghosted between the 2 centre halves to meet a right wing cross from Copps and head in.
Bristol City home - Latched on to a through ball to slot past the keeper.
Derby home - Got away from his marker in the box to plant a header into the bottom corner.
QPR home - Pounced inside the box to head in from a rebounded shot.
Ipswich away - Met a cross at the back post which was saved, followed it in to score.
Plymouth away - Recieved a cross 6 yards out, back to goal, spun and smashed it into the roof of the net.

You don't lose the ability to get into scoring positions overnight.
And if Heffs won't take us to the play off positions, then who will? Because I will bet my bottom dollar that Sharp won't be here next season.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Save your wonderment Wilts. I DIDN'T slag anyone off for using stats. My gripe with Pudding was that he was using statistics in an illogical way to support a fallacious argument.

Pudding basically said, \"I don't believe that Heffernan is good enough at this level and the stats back it up.\" You can believe what you want, but no matter what you believe, you cannot find statistics to demonstrate that Heffernan is not up to the mark as a goalscorer at this level. Heffernan has made 24 starts for us in this division. What Pudding did was to select Heffernan's last 5 starts as evidence that he's no good, and to ignore the previous 19. That is being a bit naughty with statistics, and THAT's why I raised an objection. I don't like people abusing the numbers.

You could make a case that Wayne Rooney, Alan Shearer, Gary Lineker or Pele were shite if you ignored the matches when the scored and just presented stats from 5 starts when they hadn't scored.

You could make a case that Sharp is no good at this level by ignoring the fact that he scored 14 goals in his first 26 starts and just highlighting the fact that he's scored just one penalty in his last 6 starts. But that would be f**king stupid wouldn't it?


As for your comments about the side when Heffernan was scoring last year, the argument is so full of holes it'd make a slice of Emmental look like a lead ingot.

1) The wonderful midfield that you quoted from last season was the one that took us to the bottom of the league by Xmas. So, no matter HOW good they were, they obviously weren't putting goals on a plate for anyone. Until Heffernan was finally selected. The fact was that Heffernan came into a side where goals were as rare as rocking horse shite, and immediately started scoring the goals that saved our bacon. That alone demonstrates that he is perfectly competent at this level if selected.

2) Maybe I should stop aleing at matches, cos I'm sure I've regularly seen the likes of John Oster and Jamie Coppinger playing in midfield this season in the same side as Billy Sharp. You might know better.

3) In any case, what has Billy Sharp got to do with it? The discussion was whether Heffernan was competent at this level.

I'm constantly bemused by this driving need that so many of our fans seem to have to pour scorn on the best goalscorer that we have had on contract for the thick end of 50 years. Bizarre behaviour, but it must fulfill a need in some folks' lives.

[topnotch_Donny]

I think a lot of it is to do with how the player looks on the eye. Call me daft, but when you see Heffs run, you automatically think “donkey” as he looks very sluggish etc. Heffs worked his balls off yesterday; he was dropping deep into midfield and helping out, but still he comes across as slow, sluggish and lazy?

I’d rather see heffs in a central position, and leave the defensive and midfield duties to the defence and midfield.

If Heffs is central, and he stays in the danger area, he is deadly, no doubt about that. The lad obviously wants to work hard though because goals don’t seem to be good enough to keep him in the starting 11.

Heffs takes time to hit form, and he isn’t an impact player (remember that) so you can’t pin point odd performances and say, he isn’t good enough. It takes him time and then he gradually gets better and catches fire, but then as he catches fire, he gets injured, and that has been the lads problem throughout his career, or so it seems.

The only fact is, Heffs has proven he can score at this level. If he gets a chance and starts 2-5 games in a row, he’ll pick up and hit the heights he did last season, again.

I for one hope we keep Heffs, with or without Billy.

Thats my thoughts, anyway.

[DadsleyRover]

Before reading this thread I would have said that Heffernan was not a 20+ goal scorer in the Championship. I know BST has always been a supporter of Heffs and I read his comments with some reason to his wisdom. What has happened though is that we have not seen enough of Heffs this season to determine his true qualities in this team and this division.
If I was a little critical of Heffs is that his tracking back has not been as successful as other teammates. Hayter recently has been very hard working for an example. I think that for a Donny team every member of the team has to learn to track back and try and win the ball.
I think that Heffernan will be one of our players that will leave us this season and I remember him coming to Donny at a sunny Belle Vue open day and signing autographs for the kids.
Well done Heffs I hope you get a good team and get some goals you have been a legend for us and I hope you continue to prosper.

[topnotch_Donny]

DadsleyRover wrote:

Before reading this thread I would have said that Heffernan was not a 20+ goal scorer in the Championship. I know BST has always been a supporter of Heffs and I read his comments with some reason to his wisdom. What has happened though is that we have not seen enough of Heffs this season to determine his true qualities in this team and this division.
If I was a little critical of Heffs is that his tracking back has not been as successful as other teammates. Hayter recently has been very hard working for an example. I think that for a Donny team every member of the team has to learn to track back and try and win the ball.
I think that Heffernan will be one of our players that will leave us this season and I remember him coming to Donny at a sunny Belle Vue open day and signing autographs for the kids.
Well done Heffs I hope you get a good team and get some goals you have been a legend for us and I hope you continue to prosper.

He did track back and often does. Yesterday, JET was the one left up, along with Hayter the majority of the time.

Heffs does drop back, I must be watching a different game to some  

[BillyStubbsTears]

Top Notch & VJ. Some excellent observations.

I too am bemused by the comments that Heffernan neither works outside the box nor gets into goalscoring positions. What does he do then? Levitate 100 foot above the chuffing stadium?

In fact, the two key aspects to Heffernan's game are PRECISELY those two things. He is excellent at coming deep, dropping off the centre back, finding a bit of space and bringing in other players. He is also excellent at finding space between the defenders and taking up positions in the box. That is where the majority of his goals come from.

Watch Emmanuel-Thomas's goal from yesterday and follow Heffernan. He did BOTH those things superbly.

What Heffernan doesn't have in his game is the rumbustuous, physical, argy-bargy side that Sharp brings. He doesn't have the physique to go toe-to-toe with centre-backs, so he has to be a bit cuter. He needs to AVOID defenders, not square up to them. His game is based on finding space, not winning physical battles. I suspect that a large number of people on this forum confuse that footballing intelligence with idleness/cowardice. They are wrong, as Heffernan's career statistics clearly demonstrate.

[Barmby Rover]

wilts rover wrote:

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

Pudding. That post is precisely what folk mean when they say that statistics can be made to mean anything you want.

Blimey, I have read some rubbish and other drivel on this forum (even written some of it meself) but NEVER did I ever think I would see a post where BST slags someone of for using stats!!! I am so dumbstruck I almost cant write anymore....

but...one more useless fact to throw into the argument, Heffs scored his goals last season in a team that contained for most of the time the creative talents of, Stock, Wellens, Woods and Coppinger. This season Billy Sharp has scored most of his goals in a midfield that contained the creative talent of Mark Wilson and A.N. Other

[/b]

How apt that you talk of writing drivel then Wilts. We have no talent in midfield there fore Billy is a genius? Copps has played most of the season, Woods has played, Stock has played, I seem to remember a nonentity called Oster playing sometimes. No matter what you think of Wilson he has done a decent job in midfield too. If you were to ask any football pundit what the strength of donny Rovers is they would almost certainly say our midfield. In the end Billy scored three more goals than Paul Heffernan did last season, and how many have been penalties? Not so much different then. the fact of the matter is that Heffs is going though, he leaves with a very good record, and we are giving him away in the same way as Paul Green, and all because of some sort of personality clash I assume. It isn't the fact of his leaving that is galling for me, it is the waste of a good resource for the club. If he didn't fit in last season why mess him about and devalue him by not letting him play games? Why not just advertise him last summer? The price would have been good then. It smacks of poor judgement to me.

[Superspy]

i wouldnt call it poor judgement, last season we didnt know we were going to have billy. if we didnt have billy then heffs probably would have had a decent run in the squad.

[topnotch_Donny]

Superspy wrote:

i wouldnt call it poor judgement, last season we didnt know we were going to have billy. if we didnt have billy then heffs probably would have had a decent run in the squad.

In hindsight, it worked out for the best;however, could SOD foresee Billy being quite the hit he has been for us?

Billy was a fat deemed not good enough player on over the top wages, so SOD took a huge gamble on him.

Yes Billy was proven for Scunny, in league one, but that is very different from the championship, plus Billy had, Keogh(sp) and Beckford, beside him at Scunny.

Why did SOD bring a high(out of our league) striker here, if the previous season, our own peanut earner had done the biz?

The only doubt SOD should have had with Heffs is his track record with injuries.

I know Billy has banged them in, but for me a lesser, out and out striker, on 30% of Billies wage, could be a real hit for us?

Even last season, early on when we couldn't score, we missed absolute sitters. It was because the rot set in.

Do we really need to pay a bloke 7-13 grand a week to hit the onion bag from 10 yard out?

[dumbroofer]

quick answer to that .......yes

[irishcontingent]

BS has scored 15 goals from 34 starts.
Last season PH scored 10 from 21, season before 9 from 22.
Ratio of games per goal
BS goal every 2.26 games
PH (1) goal every 2.10 games
PH (2) goal every 2.4 games.

Not much between them really.

[dumbroofer]

last comment irishcontingent was not a dig at PH as i think he could still do a job for us,but would you want to let billy go and the different style that he offers ,that is why i said .....yes

[Lord Farquaad]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

Save your wonderment Wilts. I DIDN'T slag anyone off for using stats. My gripe with Pudding was that he was using statistics in an illogical way to support a fallacious argument.

Pudding basically said, \"I don't believe that Heffernan is good enough at this level and the stats back it up.\" You can believe what you want, but no matter what you believe, you cannot find statistics to demonstrate that Heffernan is not up to the mark as a goalscorer at this level. Heffernan has made 24 starts for us in this division. What Pudding did was to select Heffernan's last 5 starts as evidence that he's no good, and to ignore the previous 19. That is being a bit naughty with statistics, and THAT's why I raised an objection. I don't like people abusing the numbers.

You could make a case that Wayne Rooney, Alan Shearer, Gary Lineker or Pele were shite if you ignored the matches when the scored and just presented stats from 5 starts when they hadn't scored.

You could make a case that Sharp is no good at this level by ignoring the fact that he scored 14 goals in his first 26 starts and just highlighting the fact that he's scored just one penalty in his last 6 starts. But that would be fcuking stupid wouldn't it?


As for your comments about the side when Heffernan was scoring last year, the argument is so full of holes it'd make a slice of Emmental look like a lead ingot.

1) The wonderful midfield that you quoted from last season was the one that took us to the bottom of the league by Xmas. So, no matter HOW good they were, they obviously weren't putting goals on a plate for anyone. Until Heffernan was finally selected. The fact was that Heffernan came into a side where goals were as rare as rocking horse shite, and immediately started scoring the goals that saved our bacon. That alone demonstrates that he is perfectly competent at this level if selected.

2) Maybe I should stop aleing at matches, cos I'm sure I've regularly seen the likes of John Oster and Jamie Coppinger playing in midfield this season in the same side as Billy Sharp. You might know better.

3) In any case, what has Billy Sharp got to do with it? The discussion was whether Heffernan was competent at this level.

I'm constantly bemused by this driving need that so many of our fans seem to have to pour scorn on the best goalscorer that we have had on contract for the thick end of 50 years. Bizarre behaviour, but it must fulfill a need in some folks' lives.

But Billy, what about those stats of yours suggesting O'Driscoll had a worse record than Weaver?

[BillyStubbsTears]

'kin 'ell, I've got me own stalker. Earlier this season you were claiming to have been looking at me cock in the West Stand bogs, now you're running www.wisewordsofBST.com.

For the record, just in case any impressionable kids might get the idea that I am less than scrupulously honest in my use of statistics, the comments that you are referring to were as follows:

1) I pointed out the fact that our run of 2 points and 4 goals from 12 games in Sept-Oct 2008 was worse than any run of 12 games that we had in 97-98, and was probably the worst extended run of form we had endured in living memory.

2) I pointed out that by the time Heffernan was finally selected in 2008-09, our goals per game record was significantly worse than it was in 1997/98.

Those things were said as part of a debate about whether our continued insistence on picking anyone in the Doncaster area with a work permit, 2 legs roughly the same length as each other, a pair of buttocks and an arsehole* to play up front before we'd select Heffernan was a good idea or not. One or two soft lads on here interpreted those statistical observations as me saying that we were worse than Weaver's side. Their choice.


*NB: Those 4 were mutually inclusive requirements, not individual descriptions of the other centre forwards that we selected in the dark days of Autumn 2008. Easy mistake to make mind.

[turnbull for england]

cheers bst revisited the columbia track last night  (the demo on supersonic single ) forgot how good it was /they were, and then remembered not going to see them at leadmill  as wanted to see kitchens of distinction instead !

[TheRev]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

'kin 'ell, I've got me own stalker. Earlier this season you were claiming to have been looking at me cock in the West Stand bogs, now you're running www.wisewordsofBST.com.

For the record, just in case any impressionable kids might get the idea that I am less than scrupulously honest in my use of statistics, the comments that you are referring to were as follows:

1) I pointed out the fact that our run of 2 points and 4 goals from 12 games in Sept-Oct 2008 was worse than any run of 12 games that we had in 97-98, and was probably the worst extended run of form we had endured in living memory.

2) I pointed out that by the time Heffernan was finally selected in 2008-09, our goals per game record was significantly worse than it was in 1997/98.

Those things were said as part of a debate about whether our continued insistence on picking anyone in the Doncaster area with a work permit, 2 legs roughly the same length as each other, a pair of buttocks and an arsehole* to play up front before we'd select Heffernan was a good idea or not. One or two soft lads on here interpreted those statistical observations as me saying that we were worse than Weaver's side. Their choice.


*NB: Those 4 were mutually inclusive requirements, not individual descriptions of the other centre forwards that we selected in the dark days of Autumn 2008. Easy mistake to make mind.

Chuff me that link doen't work  

[TheRev]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

'kin 'ell, I've got me own stalker. Earlier this season you were claiming to have been looking at me cock in the West Stand bogs, now you're running www.wisewordsofBST.com.

For the record, just in case any impressionable kids might get the idea that I am less than scrupulously honest in my use of statistics, the comments that you are referring to were as follows:

1) I pointed out the fact that our run of 2 points and 4 goals from 12 games in Sept-Oct 2008 was worse than any run of 12 games that we had in 97-98, and was probably the worst extended run of form we had endured in living memory.

2) I pointed out that by the time Heffernan was finally selected in 2008-09, our goals per game record was significantly worse than it was in 1997/98.

Those things were said as part of a debate about whether our continued insistence on picking anyone in the Doncaster area with a work permit, 2 legs roughly the same length as each other, a pair of buttocks and an arsehole* to play up front before we'd select Heffernan was a good idea or not. One or two soft lads on here interpreted those statistical observations as me saying that we were worse than Weaver's side. Their choice.


*NB: Those 4 were mutually inclusive requirements, not individual descriptions of the other centre forwards that we selected in the dark days of Autumn 2008. Easy mistake to make mind.

Chuff me that link doen't work  

[Lord Farquaad]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

'kin 'ell, I've got me own stalker. Earlier this season you were claiming to have been looking at me cock in the West Stand bogs, now you're running www.wisewordsofBST.com.

For the record, just in case any impressionable kids might get the idea that I am less than scrupulously honest in my use of statistics, the comments that you are referring to were as follows:

1) I pointed out the fact that our run of 2 points and 4 goals from 12 games in Sept-Oct 2008 was worse than any run of 12 games that we had in 97-98, and was probably the worst extended run of form we had endured in living memory.

2) I pointed out that by the time Heffernan was finally selected in 2008-09, our goals per game record was significantly worse than it was in 1997/98.

Those things were said as part of a debate about whether our continued insistence on picking anyone in the Doncaster area with a work permit, 2 legs roughly the same length as each other, a pair of buttocks and an arsehole* to play up front before we'd select Heffernan was a good idea or not. One or two soft lads on here interpreted those statistical observations as me saying that we were worse than Weaver's side. Their choice.


*NB: Those 4 were mutually inclusive requirements, not individual descriptions of the other centre forwards that we selected in the dark days of Autumn 2008. Easy mistake to make mind.

Exactly the answer I would expect from a bloke with a two inch cock.

[wilts rover]

Oh dear now look what I have started.....

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

As for your comments about the side when Heffernan was scoring last year, the argument is so full of holes it'd make a slice of Emmental look like a lead ingot.

1) The wonderful midfield that you quoted from last season was the one that took us to the bottom of the league by Xmas. So, no matter HOW good they were, they obviously weren't putting goals on a plate for anyone. Until Heffernan was finally selected. The fact was that Heffernan came into a side where goals were as rare as rocking horse shite, and immediately started scoring the goals that saved our bacon. That alone demonstrates that he is perfectly competent at this level if selected.

You may remember that for several years now many fans have been saying ‘we would be a great team if only we had a goalscorer’ – if not ask Alan Main/Southstand, he has posted as such numerous times. Yes that midfield were creating chances, but obviously it was not a big enough plate for Lewis Guy & Jason Price

2) Maybe I should stop aleing at matches, cos I'm sure I've regularly seen the likes of John Oster and Jamie Coppinger playing in midfield this season in the same side as Billy Sharp. You might know better.

Me too, Martin Woods and Brian Stock have played as well. My point being that this season you may also recall Oster and Coppinger playing in different positions due to the injury situation at the club, Oster played most of the season on one wing or the other and looked very ineffective, Copps played with a hamstring injury after Christmas and was upfront with Billy for some games. I contend that the midfield last season was more ‘settled’ and therefore easier to fit into..

3) In any case, what has Billy Sharp got to do with it? The discussion was whether Heffernan was competent at this level.

How can you have a discussion as to Heffs competency unless you are bringing in comparisons with other players?

I'm constantly bemused by this driving need that so many of our fans seem to have to pour scorn on the best goalscorer that we have had on contract for the thick end of 50 years. Bizarre behaviour, but it must fulfill a need in some folks' lives.

Me too, if you check my past posts I have always been a big supporter of Heffs and was one of the few who thought he and Billy Sharp could play together – a view I still hold. One of the best games I have seen Heffernan play was Plymouth away last year, when he did so much work outside the box, creating chances for teamates, the cross he put in for John Spicer’s goal was sublime.
What I wanted to point out was that you cannot take players performances in isolation – you also should consider the team they are playing in.

Oasis the greatest rock band this country has ever produced!!! Looks at Led Zep, Stones, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath & Kinks (to name but a few) albums with wonderment. Quite a few Smiths (and Roses) fans would argue that they were never the greatest from Manchester. Good at borrowing other peoples ideas, aye, one of the best of the mid 90’s definitely – the greatest – I think not….
I should also wish it recorded that at no time and in no place have I ever seen BST’s cock – and have no wish to do so. I do quite enjoy reading his stats tho.