Did You Realise...

[dickos1]

U obviously didn't go the Ipswich game then. If you did you would be aware that we had many chances that we didn't convert. Balls flying across 6 yard box with players just failing to get a touch is much more of an opportunity than a 30 yard on target strike that the keeper catches with his eyes closed.. We are much much more of a goal threat under Saunders. Even Peterborough we didn't play superb but we created chances. Derby, Cardiff, reading I can't remember a chance.

[dickos1]

U obviously didn't go the Ipswich game then. If you did you would be aware that we had many chances that we didn't convert. Balls flying across 6 yard box with players just failing to get a touch is much more of an opportunity than a 30 yard on target strike that the keeper catches with his eyes closed.. We are much much more of a goal threat under Saunders. Even Peterborough we didn't play superb but we created chances. Derby, Cardiff, reading I can't remember a chance.

[Wild Rover]

At the risk of doing said thing, how about another stat, since you pin so much importance on them.

West Ham Shots on Goal in the past 2 games - 6

Are West Ham one of those \"Top teams\" you keep going on about? They are second aren't they?

         

Oh dear madmick.....hahahahahaha,this is great. Keep going.

Sorry Benaldo, you've just shot yourself in the foot big time (again)! In the last 2 games West Ham have had 10 attempts on target and 15 off target making a total of 25 attempts on goal and not 6 as you say.

hahahahahahahahaha

Very wrong Madmick. Check the stats again. 4 on target in last match ( Coventry ), 2 on target V Hull.

4+2=6 . Thats Benny correct i am afraid.

and it was 8 off target not 15.

[madmick50]

V

ery wrong Madmick. Check the stats again. 4 on target in last match ( Coventry ), 2 on target V Hull.

4+2=6 . Thats Benny correct i am afraid.

and it was 8 off target not 15.

I stand corrected. I'd got my stats from the 2 games before the one on Saturday. Apologies to Benaldo.

[benaldo]

I should really laugh shouldn't I?

[Padge_DRFC]

Bring back Weaver and bring Richardson in as assistant.

[inSODwetrust]

Bring back Weaver and bring Richardson in as assistant.

Even better, Benaldo manger, Madmick his assistant!

[aidanstu]

Seriously this debate is becoming very very boring and is being fuelled by individuals, such as you mick, who have about as much insite into management as mr muscle has into weight training.
Before blurting out the first thing that comes into your mind, which appears to be a reactionists point of view, stop, think and ask your self;
A) how long into a management role would it be appropriate for people to start blaming you for everything. Particularly when you have been given the failing personnel of the previous manager and the systems they employed?
B) what would change achieve?
C) who do you think rovers could realistically bring in that is going to better our position. Specifically given the business plan the board are currently employing. Ie it's likely to be from mckay's stable.
D) how can you judge Saunders when he hasn't had the opportunity to put the clubs plan in place. Ie no euro loans available due to transfer rules. Has it not occurred to you that players are being brought in until January to get us by until then. All of them to my knowledge have been brought in with the ability to extend their contracts if needed.

Please think things through properly before boring us all with this crap again. That goes for the rest of you lot to.

I was pro sod, times move on and now I'm backing Saunders and the business plan until its proved over time that it doesn't work, then I'll review my decision. Maybe this time next year, championship or otherwise, we can form a proper informed opinion.

Mick these were not rhetorical questions, please answer them. I am genuinely interested in your views.

[hoolahoop]

Madmick you have chosen a very relevant user name, it reflects your ability in debating so aptly.

[donnybez]

...and how Can the manager I ask, have 100% fault for a lack of shots?

[Mr1Croft]

Croft and Mick please geta grip. How on earth u can say it was down to sod we beat Peterborough and palace god only knows. The fact we hadn't won in 19 games under sod before that with the same players should say it all. Attempts on target is irrelevant, we had chances against Ipswich to score more than the 3 and good chances at that. When was the last time we scored 3 away from home? Or even at home? And crofty u said Saunders has now brought all his own players in, can u tell me how many of his own players played on sat? I make it all of 3, and 2 of them were our best 2 players.

I never said it was down to SOD, what I was implying is that SOD has a philosophy of making the players think by themselves and play the right option, he never has any excessive training excersises, SOD himself said that to play a good passing game you don't need any particular skill, you need to have a mentaility.

That is what I meant, the first half in all 3 games we were worse than dire. The second half when we played the best football (and got the points) there were glimpses of that same football. It wasn't down to SOD, but his mentality was still rubbing off on the players. Wehn you sack someone the players don't just forget everything he taught them, and that it what I was implying.

Secondly you misquoted me, well either that or you failed to understand my post. I have no doubt what so ever that ALL DS's signing are here, there are at least 20 to come in the next year alone if his Wrexham record is anything to go by. What I was implying (again) is that he got a bigger win ratio when he played 'SODs' players, and that it was he did against Palace and Hull, and Chimbonda was alone for Peterbrough. Since then he has had 2 or more of his own players and we have won 4 points from 21.

The last time we scored 3 goals was against Derby, when we had a much better choice of selection than we did for the games that followed it. The last time we scored 3 at home was against Scunthorpe I beleive? Again we had a huge choice of selection.

The point I can't stress enough Dickos is that the selection DS has available with the new short term talent is a squad SOD would have dreamed of in terms of quality, If with a full selection SOD can beat Derby 3-1 away and Scunthorpe 3-0 at home, we should expect at the very least to average 3 goals a game with Sharp and Diouf partnering every game. Sharp averaged 1 goal per two games with us with the likes of Hayter and Coppinger backing him up. What should he be averaging with El Hadj behind him?

The best Doncaster Rovers XI at Barnsley, the worst performance. For me you have to ask the manager why a game the fans anticipate so much lacked passion from not just our players, but our best players ever...

[dickos1]

I'm not arguing about sod and Saunders, I supported sod to the hilt! Read my old posts. The fact of the matter is ten games is not long enough for a new manager to be criticised. If he had lost all ten games I would still believe that. The fact that he has improved results greatly in those ten games is a bonus.
He wants to change how we play and to do that he needs his own players the only time he's had more than 2 of his new signings in we won 3-2 away at Ipswich. In may if were bottom and struggled I will agree that it's not worked, but after 10 games I just think it's ludicrous!

[benaldo]

Jesus christ lcroft. So when the players play badly it's down to Saunders and when they play well it's down to them remembering SOD??!!

Well thought out.

[Mr1Croft]

Lets start again shall we...if your position had applied to sod then we may not have won the jpt trophy, got promoted or stayed in the championship ship as you will recall, if you have been supporting the club that long, sods teams were awful for a long time afte he took over.

Can you also give me answers to my questions I ask above. It's not personal mick, I assure you, but these types of posts are I'll informed and counter productive.

That (in bold) is utter shite and over exagguratted nonsense.

In SOD's first 32 competitive games he lost 5 matches in all competitions, 2 of them were cup games (Wycombe on penalties [LC] and Bolton 4-0 [FA]) by contrast the only league games he lost in that period was 3 away games to Scunthorpe, Bristol City and Blackpool, who incidentally all went on to be promoted.

Call it aweful performances all you like SOD delivered results and we didn't have to cling on to one 3-2 result away from home to prove he was going to be worthwhile.

Furthermore, SOD came in as part of a ling term vision, we were a mid table team and we weren't in a relegation scrap, he could afford to sacrifice points to try different things, DS simply cant...

[dickos1]

32 games??? Saunders has had ten! The only stat you can compare is sods first ten matches in charge. And it wasn't great.

[Mr1Croft]

Jesus christ lcroft. So when the players play badly it's down to Saunders and when they play well it's down to them remembering SOD??!!

Well thought out.

Read my post ffs and stop it with the screable, it's getting old.

What I said about SOD is that you could see the glimpses in the first 2 matches, and maybe Peterbrough but not so much, its only since the first international break when Saunders has had the ability to get his players working with his style that the performances continued dropping.

And again I said \"It wasn't down to SOD, but his mentality was still rubbing off on the players. Wehn you sack someone the players don't just forget everything he taught them, and that it what I was implying.\"


P.S Notice Benaldo how I actually quote it word for word when using quotation marks '\"'.

[benaldo]

Cant Mrlcroft just go and watch the team SOD is associated with next? It'd be so much better for everyone.

[dickos1]

Crofty I've had a look for you! Sods first ten games. We won 2 drew 6 and lost 2. So we got one more point then than we have under Saunders. Sods first 4 games were draws.
Which goes to show ten games is not enough to judge a manager.

[madmick50]

Seriously this debate is becoming very very boring and is being fuelled by individuals, such as you mick, who have about as much insite into management as mr muscle has into weight training.
Before blurting out the first thing that comes into your mind, which appears to be a reactionists point of view, stop, think and ask your self;
A) how long into a management role would it be appropriate for people to start blaming you for everything. Particularly when you have been given the failing personnel of the previous manager and the systems they employed?
 what would change achieve?
C) who do you think rovers could realistically bring in that is going to better our position. Specifically given the business plan the board are currently employing. Ie it's likely to be from mckay's stable.
D) how can you judge Saunders when he hasn't had the opportunity to put the clubs plan in place. Ie no euro loans available due to transfer rules. Has it not occurred to you that players are being brought in until January to get us by until then. All of them to my knowledge have been brought in with the ability to extend their contracts if needed.

Please think things through properly before boring us all with this crap again. That goes for the rest of you lot to.

I was pro sod, times move on and now I'm backing Saunders and the business plan until its proved over time that it doesn't work, then I'll review my decision. Maybe this time next year, championship or otherwise, we can form a proper informed opinion.

A I don't blame Saunders for everything. The board is mostly to blame. He is just their stooge. As to how long you should give a new manager, well that depends on the circumstances. His brief was to have an immediate effect and keep us in the Championship so by definition he hasn't got a lot of time to sort things out.

In that context I think it's fair that he should start to be judged almost from day one. After 10 games it is my contention that he is failing miserably and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. How on earth can he not be blamed for the inept Barnsley performance coming off the back of a good result at Ipswich and then having the international break to reinforce his ideas and systems. What more does he want?

I do think The 'failing personnel' as you put it, were good enough to keep us up last year despite an horrendous injury list. Saunders is patently unable to motivate them and get the best out of them (see Barnsley, Leeds etc) but has one hand tied behind his back because of the big time Charlie strategy. I don't think even Alex Ferguson could motivate them when they knew they were to be replaced imminently by a big time Charlie.  
 
Not sure I know what you mean by 'systems they employed.' I think he’s had enough time to introduce his own systems and a very helpful couple of international breaks (even though he moans about them and blames them for bad results).

B What would change achieve? I don't think they should have changed the manager. They should have given him time to rebuild following a more conventional strategy even if it meant rebuilding in League one. The current change is destroying the club.

C No-one. As I said before, they could bring in Alex Ferguson and even he would not be able to make the McKay strategy work.

D I can only judge Saunders on what has happened so far. To be fair to him, he has an impossible task. 10 games in and we are having one third of the attempts on goal that our other relegation rivals are having which speaks volumes.

I totally disagree with the strategy so am not prepared to wait for him to have more time to implement it as the longer we go down that route the more damage will be done. After 10 games it is becoming apparent that there is no team spirit and this situation is likely to get worse the longer the strategy is in place.

[benaldo]

Oh madmick50....what ever are we going to do with you?

On your Point A -

How do you know what Saunders brief was?

And you ask how long does a manager need to get things right, arguing that 10 games ans a two week break is long enough. I know this is obvious, but does the phrase \"Why haven't we won a game in 8 months\" ring any bells?

And on your point D

How motivated do you think Gillett has to be before he grows a foot taller? Or how much motivation do you think Stocks back requires before it is better? And I would hazzard a guess that no amount of motivation will ever make George Friend and Shelton Mattress anything other than average (clown ridden episode laden) centre backs! O'Connor is not the same player he was, neither is Coppinger and Oster isn't getting any younger either. Dumbuya is a sprinter, not a footballer, Naylor is older than Red Baron, and it all takes it toll. I suspect even you madmick50 know the problems - too many crap players used to playing a crap way. Bring in the quality - a la Diouf and Ikeme and look what happens, they play brilliantly. To quote the BBC \"Ikeme made a string of world class saves against Barnsley\". And we all know that Diouf is just brilliant.

Beye is joining. Goulon is joining. Now ask yourself this. If SOD had still been managing the team and Goulon, Ikeme, Diouf, Beye, were all brought in on loan (ps they're not all going to be short term, Beye has publicly said he wants to stay for the season), would you be happy or still pissed off?

Fact is, these are the best players Rovers has ever had in one team. They WILL get results, but not before the majority of the team has been replaced by them. As no more than 3 of Saunders \"big time charlies\" have played in the same team yet. Gillett, Martis, Friend, Stock, Coppinger can easily negate any positive the \"stars\" are bringing. This Saturday will tell us a bit more of Saunders plans as hopefully we'll have Ikeme, Illunga, Beye, Goulon, and Diouf playing together. Let's see what happens eh?

[madmick50]

I predict a comfortable victory for Watford. Too many new players mixed with a demotivated existing squad is not a recipe for success.

[dickos1]

And that madmick sums you up!!

[DonnyNoel]

I predict a comfortable victory for Watford. Too many new players mixed with a demotivated existing squad is not a recipe for success.

So by that you are saying Saunders needs more time surely?

(Based on another new manager demotivating players further due to general unrest and bringing in yet more new faces)

[Glyn_Wigley]

Attempts on target means naff all I'm afraid.

I disagree. I think it's an excellent indicator of how well a team is performing.

An even more excellent indicator of how well a team is performing is number of goals scored, but for some inexplicable reason you chose not to mention THAT statistic. Why is that? Being deliberately selective in your data...surely not?!

[madmick50]

So by that you are saying Saunders needs more time surely?

More time might help the situation but he doesn't have that luxury. It takes time for players to gel. You can't just expect a group of new players that aren't match fit(some of them)to instantly gel and know what they're doing. By the time they become familiar with each other some of them will have moved on and the whole process starts again. Mix in a demotivated bunch of original squad members and you don't have the stability and continuity needed to win football matches.

[Glyn_Wigley]

We can all pick and choose the odd statistic that can try to make the point we're trying to put across. I've attempted to show a trend that is very worrying.

I suggest you study statistics instead of coming out with a ridiculous statement like that. No statistician on Earth will claim a 'trend' on a sample of TWO.

[DonnyNoel]

So by that you are saying Saunders needs more time surely?

More time might help the situation but he doesn't have that luxury. It takes time for players to gel. You can't just expect a group of new players that aren't match fit(some of them)to instantly gel and know what they're doing. By the time they become familiar with each other some of them will have moved on and the whole process starts again. Mix in a demotivated bunch of original squad members and you don't have the stability and continuity needed to win football matches.

But if we replace DS aren't we in the same situation still? Unless we employ a stand up comedian how will the morale improve overnight? We're bottom of the league coming to the end of a terrible calendar year - any manager is going to want to bring in new faces.

[madmick50]

An even more excellent indicator of how well a team is performing is number of goals scored, but for some inexplicable reason you chose not to mention THAT statistic. Why is that? Being deliberately selective in your data...surely not?!

If you insist, I will mention goals scored. So far this season we have scored 13 goals. This is an average of 0.76 per game, the worst in the Championship (probably the worst in the whole league). We also have the worst goal difference, conceding an average of 1.76 per game. We also have the fewest shots on goal in the Championship.

Whichever way you look at it things are not improving and if anything are getting worse.

[Glyn_Wigley]

An even more excellent indicator of how well a team is performing is number of goals scored, but for some inexplicable reason you chose not to mention THAT statistic. Why is that? Being deliberately selective in your data...surely not?!

If you insist, I will mention goals scored. So far this season we have scored 13 goals. This is an average of 0.76 per game, the worst in the Championship (probably the worst in the whole league). We also have the worst goal difference, conceding an average of 1.76 per game. We also have the fewest shots on goal in the Championship.

Whichever way you look at it things are not improving and if anything are getting worse.

I was right, selective data. How about using the same two games you insist on basing your 'trend' on?

[Donnybax]

on goals we finished last season 16th for goals scored and we are currently bottom in goals scored