LibDems and Nick Clegg

[Filo]

Is Nick the Dick looking at his final 2 years as an MP, or will he defect to the Tories before the next general election? It looks like the LibDems are facing armegeddon after last nights local election results!

[mjdgreg]

It's a shame people can't see what a legend the man is. There aren't many politicians that would put the country first above their own party and own self interest.

[Filo]

First Cast!


Your so predictable Mick!

[rtid88]

Nick Clegg a legend?????? Wot planet r u from?? I bet where ever it is they all where blue & yellow!!!

[River Don]

Honestly, I think this might be the beginning of the end for the Lib Dem party.

[Filo]

It's a shame people can't see what a legend bellend the man is. There aren't many politicians that would put the country himself first above their own party and own self interest.

[jonnydog]

It's a shame people can't see what a legend bellend the man is. There aren't many politicians that would put the country himself first above their own party and own self interest.

Just what i was going to put. His beliefs and what he stood for soon disappeared when the opportunity to be DC's number 2 raised it's head

[BillyStubbsTears]

Historical times. The Lib Dems are, I think, finished as a major electoral force for a generation. The issue is that when you vote LD, you don't really know what you are voting for. There's been a big shock for a couple of million people who voted LD in 2010 thinking they were voting for a vaguely centre-left party (kind of Blair-ish without the nasty authoritarian aspect). What those people didn't expect was that the LDs would end up propping up a Tory Govt. that's why the LDs have collapsed in the polls since 2010, with those people going over to Labour. Labour hadn't done much to earn that support but there is nowhere else for anyone vaguely left-ish to go.

So, why should people vote LDin future? The next Election will, I think, see people really having to decide if they want a left-ish or a right-ish Govt. and if you vote LD, you've no way of guessing which side they'll support. So why leave it to chance? Vote the way you really believe instead of leaving it to Clegg to make your mind up AFTER the Election.

I almost feel sorry for Clegg. He has been totally out of his depth and the Tories have run rings round him. The one historic change that he could have secured was a change in the voting system. But he screwed that up by having the referendum precisely at a time that he and his party were ridiculed or reviled. From here, I simply don't see what future his party has, other than going back to picking up the dozen or so seats they won in some heartlands between 1945-79.

Oh aye, and to cap it all, the boundary changes have even screwed Clegg's own seat. It has been a rock solid LD seat for a while, but at the next Election, it wi have some very strong Labour areas added to it. I suspect he'll be out on his arse next time round, along with 75% of his other MPs.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Ironically though they definitely did the right thing and some of their policies have been for the good of a lot of people.  Sadly for them the Labour spin machine is doing a good job at painting a bad picture and the Tories seem really daft in trying to hang theirselves.  Their policies aren't so bad, but stupid mistakes are costing them at the moment.

But are any of these results a surprise? No, it was always going to be this way with harsh policies introduced it's being seen worldwide.  But things will improve approaching the election in 3 years I'm sure.

[mjdgreg]

Ironically though they definitely did the right thing and some of their policies have been for the good of a lot of people.  Sadly for them the Labour spin machine is doing a good job at painting a bad picture and the Tories seem really daft in trying to hang theirselves.  Their policies aren't so bad, but stupid mistakes are costing them at the moment.

But are any of these results a surprise? No, it was always going to be this way with harsh policies introduced it's being seen worldwide.  But things will improve approaching the election in 3 years I'm sure.

Agree with most of that. Nick Clegg did the right thing going into a coalition. He's had to compromise on his election promises because the Tories won far more seats so were always going to be the driving force. However our electorate seem to be of the ludicrous opinion that because he hasn't implemented their manifesto in full he has misled the country and should never be elected again. How simplistic and stupid can people be.

I bet those moaning about him aren't moaning about the extra money in their pay packet thanks to him getting the tax allowance threshold raised. Three years is an eternity in politics. The Liberals will be back once the Labour mess is sorted out.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

You make my point for me. Clegg had to compromise on his Election promises. That is PRECISELY the point. People who vote LD are left not knowing WHICH promises are to be "compromised" (or, in plain English, "broken") until AFTER the Election. So, having campaigned on policies like support for the EU, no tuition fee increases, no major re structuring of the NHS and (by FAR most importantly) not having a very aggressive approach to Austerity(*), LD voters find that all those policies are jettisoned within months of the Election. And of course, had they gone into a Coalition with Labour, they would have had to throw out other policies.

So, the question remains: When you vote LD, what policies exactly are you voting for? In reality, you are making a non-decision. You are leaving the decision to Clegg etc to make after the Election.

This is not a partisan comment by the way. I'm not passing judgement on whether Clegg was right or wrong to go into Coalition. I'm merely pointing out what voting LD means in practice.

(*)This one was the biggest about turn of all. The LD economic policy before the Election was much, much closer to Labour's than it was to the Tories'. After the Coalition was formed, Clegg publicly stated that he changed his mind on the last week before the Election as a result of what was happening in Greece. He changed his mind! But it didn't dawn on him that it might be courteous to tell his party and the Electorate before they voted LD. That one issue shows that voting LD because you agree with their policies is utterly, utterly pointless. You have no idea whatsoever which policies they will support the day after the Election.  And they've been rumbled. That's why they saw an unprecedented drop in support in the 6 months after the Election, and why they've flat-lined for the subsequent 18 months. I cannot see any realistic events erasing that memory from voters'
minds in the next 3 years. Or the next 30 years come to that.

[mjdgreg]

The logical conclusion to your argument is that there is no point in voting for anyone unless they can form a government. So lets just have the Tories and Labour. I prefer a bit more diversity myself.

Good on Nick for using his common-sense and realising the Tories were a much better proposition than Labour. Any combination of parties is infinitely preferable to Labour.

[RedJ]

would that include one that included the BNP?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick. I'm trying to keep my comments non-partisan. You, as usual, are merely trying.

The point is that there is no point listening to pre-election promises from the LDs because they are worthless. That's not having a go at the morals and beliefs of the LDs. It's just an observation of the reality in a First Past the Post system. The smallest party will never be in a position to make good on those promises. So the promises are worthless.

If we had PR and the prospect of regular coalitions, we as a people might come to expect compromises and politicians might stop making promises. They might talk about what they aspire to do instead and what they will fight tooth and nail to try to implement within a coalition. I'd applaud that if it happened, and it's one ofvthe reasons I'm in favour if PR.

Now I'll get partisan. The LDs claim to want that sirt of grown up politics, but they are the most unprincipled and immature party of the lot. And they've been smoked out and have destroyed their own credibility by being incompetent and mendacious over the last 2 years.

At the last Election, every single LD MP signed a pledge to vote against rises in tuition fees. That actually WAS a grown up policy. They couldn't promise that they could prevent such a rise, but they could promise at least to vote against it. And what did the vast majority of them do last year when the vote came? Add that to the 180 degree about turn on economic policy, and I'll ask the question again: how can anyone vote for the LDs because they agree with their policies, when their closely held beliefs will be tossed out and changed after Election Day?

[RedJ]

would that include one that included the BNP?

well?

[Filo]

Ironically though they definitely did the right thing and some of their policies have been for the good of a lot of people.  Sadly for them the Labour spin machine is doing a good job at painting a bad picture and the Tories seem really daft in trying to hang theirselves.  Their policies aren't so bad, but stupid mistakes are costing them at the moment.

But are any of these results a surprise? No, it was always going to be this way with harsh policies introduced it's being seen worldwide.  But things will improve approaching the election in 3 years I'm sure.

Agree with most of that. Nick Clegg did the right thing going into a coalition. He's had to compromise on his election promises because the Tories won far more seats so were always going to be the driving force. However our electorate seem to be of the ludicrous opinion that because he hasn't implemented their manifesto in full he has misled the country and should never be elected again. How simplistic and stupid can people be.

I bet those moaning about him aren't moaning about the extra money in their pay packet thanks to him getting the tax allowance threshold raised. Three years is an eternity in politics. The Liberals will be back once the Labour mess is sorted out.

Mick, you`re such a gullible fool! yes Clegg did go into coalition for the right reasons, it`s a pity the right reasons were for his and his handful of cronies self gain. The only reason the Lib Dems did n`t go into coalition with Labour is that it would have still produced a minority Government, no one could rely on the support of the other minor parties to produce a majority Government, the minority government would have lasted a few months at the most, before another General election would have been called, that in all probability would have killed the Lib Dems there and then, a few political careers would have been finished. So what they did to prolong their careers and get a longer term in office was to ditch their principles and nearly all their pre election manifesto and throw their lot in with the Conservatives, thus giving them at least 5 years in office rather than a few months. Why do you think Brown hung on a few days before resigning? Once it became clear that the Lib dems were on a mission of self gratification, Brown tendered his resignation and more or less said get on with it. The handful of Lib Dem MP`s have betrayed their voters, betrayed their party and now have betrayed their local councillors, all for "13 pieces of silver" and all Clegg can say is that he`s sad!

[The Red Baron]

For all the slating the Lib Dems are getting now, I wonder if they'll end up having the last laugh. What's the odds that 2015 might produce a hung parliament yet again, and we might have a Lib-Lab coalition as a result? Maybe not with Clegg as the Deputy PM, but still the Lib Dems in government?

[Filo]

For all the slating the Lib Dems are getting now, I wonder if they'll end up having the last laugh. What's the odds that 2015 might produce a hung parliament yet again, and we might have a Lib-Lab coalition as a result? Maybe not with Clegg as the Deputy PM, but still the Lib Dems in government?

As it stands now, I don`t think there`s much chance of that, the only way the Lib Dems can salvage some respect now is to withdraw from the coalition, join the opposition ranks, rally around the other minor parties and force a no confidence vote in the present government, and lets go to the polls again, but that won`t happen because the Lib Dem MP`s would shit themselves, knowing they could be almost wiped out, they will be anyway if they stay in the coalition, pulling out now might just save a few of their MP`s the chop

[mjdgreg]

t

he only way the Lib Dems can salvage some respect now is to withdraw from the coalition, join the opposition ranks, rally around the other minor parties and force a no confidence vote in the present government, and lets go to the polls again,

The only way the country can be totally finished as an economic force is if if the Labour party ever get their hands on power again. Nick realises this and is playing a blinder.

[Mr1Croft]

I don't think this is the end for the Lib Dems, it is definitely the end for Nick I am afraid though. Admittedly he was a great leader who would have made a better Leader of Opposition or PM of a majority party rather than part of a coalition government. The Lib Dems will dispose of him in 2014 and force him into Europe where he probably belongs.

It is a tough one because I don't think the UK has experienced a Coalition like this before, yes under Callaghan we had an agreement to keep Labour in power but not a tight compact coalition like what we have now; and quite frankly it was always going to upset more people. Cameron talks about how the people "chose a coalition government", but there is no evidence to suggest that. The country voted a hung parliament which tells us that they didn't want either Cameron nor Brown and many were unsure if the Lib Dems could be trusted. Now we have our answer.

I agree with BST about the compromises, it was always going to be difficult for the Lib Dems after quite a poor General Election and I suppose Nick has done well to turn the situation around to actually get into government. And tbh although I favoured the Tories above the others I actually thought the Lib Dems being a coalition Government would soften the blow. I was wrong.

However a clear left and right wing exists both in the Liberal Party and its membership. On the left you have the likes of Simon Hughes and Charles Kennedy who are Social Democrats (from the SDP side) and like to think of themselves as more Labour like but still centrally motivated. These believe in regulating markets, for progressive taxation, pro-welfare state and public services.

On the right however is the more classic liberals, (lassiez-faire Liberals) generally speaking these are more similar to the new-liberal Conservatives, normally the voters in places like Doncaster but think 'Tory' is a nasty word. These people believe in a smaller state, lower taxes, less welfare, privatisation, competition and entrepreneurship. Of course these are the David Laws and Nick Clegg of today.

With a divide like that it is clear why Nick Clegg wanted to work with the Tories, and it was what they accepted (rather than U-turned) that they believed would shape the future of a British Political System with the Liberal Democrats as a main force; AV. Under FPTP I don't think many of us alive today will see a Liberal Democrat for the simple reason that they cannot turn their vote % into seats. Look at this image below:

As this shows they got 23% of the vote but less than 10% of the seats, whereas under AV, the Lib Dems would have seen that figure rise to around 16% in the 2010 general election. Had the country decided to vote for AV, it would have been a huge success and Nick Clegg would have been hailed by all as the man who changed British Politics for ever. The problem is of course they sacrificed so much to get that referendum I think the LDs didn't consider the possibility had the public said no, and their. world comes tumbling down around them.
One of the interesting thing for academics and scholars is (despite the left/right 'split') the Lib dems and their priorities have remained pretty constant since the SDP-Liberal Alliance on issues such as Europe, on Education, on Defense, etc., yet when they do become part of a Government (be it only a minority force) they fail to adhere to their own ideologies. And so if there is anything you want to keep an eye out for above all it must be this: Not how much the Liberal Democrats have changed Government, but how much Government has changed the Lib Dems.

[mjdgreg]

Interesting post there Mr1Croft. I disagree about Nick being finished as I have faith that the British electorate will eventually realise that he is the man that saved the country from the economic abyss by ensuring Labour lost power. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he eventually gets a state funeral for how he is helping to steer us through these extremely difficult times.

Here below is a defence of the legend that is Nick Clegg:

In the space of a little under two years Nick Clegg has gone from the immense popularity of ‘Cleggmania’, where at one point he was the most popular political leader in Britain since Winston Churchill, to being reviled by a substantial number of people, especially among the chattering classes. The cause of this dramatic change of fortune is the sense of betrayal felt by some that in 2010 after the General Election he took the Liberal Democrats into a coalition with the Conservative Party. However, this sense of betrayal seems to be based on naivety and stupidity, because what else could Nick Clegg in reality and in good consciousness have done after the results of the election came in.

During the 2010 campaign Nick Clegg always said he would deal with the party which won the most seats and/or votes in the election. By doing a deal with the Conservatives that is exactly what he did and therefore where is the betrayal in sticking to what you always said you were going to do. People who claim that Clegg should have done a deal with Labour have got to consider the fact that the electorate had decisively rejected Gordon Brown and the Labour Party by inflicting upon them one of the largest defeats in their history. Added to this was the fact that even if a deal had been struck between the Liberals and Labour they would still have had to rely on other parties therefore creating an incredibly ramshackle administration and perhaps more importantly in the long-term consisting of politicians decisively rejected by the people of England, the only country in the U.K. without any measure of devolution. This arrangement would undoubtedly have led to problems because the only way that such a grouping could have passed measures only affecting England would have been by relying on a number of Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs. Also to keep such a disparate number of parties together would really have been like herding cats and therefore would not have survived very long.

The other claim that Nick Clegg could have arranged a loose deal with the Conservatives does also not stand up to the test of reality because decisions had to be made in order to save the economy and provide stability. The loose arrangements that the Liberals arranged with Labour in the 1920s and the 1970s led to paralysis and the avoidance of hard decisions which left the country in a huge mess. The other lesson from those arrangements for the Liberal Democrats is that providing a degree of support did not prevent them from being decisively beaten in the subsequent elections. Also if the Liberal Democrats had turned down the chance to participate in government it was not guaranteed that it would ever come round again certainly within the political careers of this generation of politicians. Nick Clegg in 2010 did what made sense and more importantly what he said he would do and therefore it was not a betrayal but the application of common sense and logic.

The other reason given for the idea that somehow he betrayed the population and deserves the scorn heaped upon him is that over certain policies he broke his word. On issues such as tuition fees this is certainly true, but apart from the fact that the new system of university fees is not the work of the devil many of its opponents make it out to be, the fact is, is it a shock that a politician broke a promise or a commitment. Throughout history almost every political figure you can think of has broken their word and therefore if you are naive or stupid enough to believe everything that they say then surely some of your anger about them not doing what they said should be directed at yourself because putting your faith in the word of politician is your own fault. Also people have got to realise that a coalition implies compromise and seeing as the Lib Dems have a minority of seats they cannot force through all of their policies. The fact that many on the left in public life seem to struggle with the nature of these arrangements is surprising seeing as they in the most part have been the most enthusiastic advocates of coalition governments. Added to this is the fact that Nick Clegg and his colleagues broke their word on certain issues because they never thought they would be held to account and therefore they never scrutinised their actions or said how they were going to achieve their policy aims but also the media and sections of the electorate also never asked probing questions of the Liberal Democrats.

Nick Clegg in government has in the most part been pragmatic and chosen his fights, this has led him to being the first Liberal leader to implement any policies since the 1920s. He has also with some success moved the Lib Dems away from its image of a party for disgruntled Lefties and fence-sitters and thereby now has the chance to take the party back from the social democrats and return it to its much deeper Gladstonian Liberal roots. This may certainly cause problems with populist opportunists like Tim Farron and his brand of self-serving, non-decision making, hand-wringing hypocrisy but it is a price worth paying to allow the Liberal Democrats to be regarded as more than a rest-home for disgruntled socialists. However, it does have to be noted that in recent months Nick Clegg has somewhat blotted his copybook with his positions on Europe and healthcare where he has fallen back into the trap of previous Liberal Democrat leaders of being opportunistic bandwagon jumpers.

Like him or loathe him Nick Clegg is not the great betrayer of popular myth. In 2010 he did what he always said he would, and in government he has acted like any other politician. The current opprobrium of Clegg says more about his accusers and their foolish, naive, insincere and pathetic belief that a politician would not behave like every other politician who has ever achieved a modicum of power.

[Filo]

Mick, you really should try and use your own arguments when posting something rather than trying to pass on some ones own work as your own!

here`s the link that you copied and pasted that from

http://politicsontoast.com/2012/03/20/in-defence-of-nick-clegg/

[mjdgreg]

mjdgreg, you really should try and use your own arguments when posting something rather than trying to pass on some ones own work as your own!

I never said it was 'my' defence. I said it was 'a' defence. I didn't post the link as most people from past experience don't bother to check them out. I rightly thought that there was a better chance of people reading the link if I posted it in full.

[Filo]

You did n`t even acknowledge the author of the blog, common courtesy when you publish some one else`s work, it`s not the first time you`ve copied and pasted is it? it`s a bit of a habit you have, deceiving people, just like your hero Nick the Dick

[mjdgreg]

You did n`t even acknowledge the author of the blog, common courtesy when you publish some one else`s work,

Look, in my world getting the message across is far more important than wasting time with common courtesy. I haven't got where I've got to today by wasting time being courteous for no good reason. I'm sure the bloke who wrote the defence isn't going to lose any sleep over the fact that I didn't acknowledge him. Quite the opposite in fact. If he ever reads this forum I'm sure he would be very pleased I have spread the word.

Once again we have a situation where the message is ignored and the messenger is shot at. Instead of saying Nick is a dick you should try and explain why you feel this way. Only then will your views be taken seriously like what mine are.

[Filo]

I fail to see any one on here taking your views seriously, in fact the only one that seems to acknowledge your views has expressed them through you, and that seems to be your inflatable spouse!

[Mr1Croft]

For all the slating the Lib Dems are getting now, I wonder if they'll end up having the last laugh. What's the odds that 2015 might produce a hung parliament yet again, and we might have a Lib-Lab coalition as a result? Maybe not with Clegg as the Deputy PM, but still the Lib Dems in government?

As it stands now, I don`t think there`s much chance of that, the only way the Lib Dems can salvage some respect now is to withdraw from the coalition, join the opposition ranks, rally around the other minor parties and force a no confidence vote in the present government, and lets go to the polls again, but that won`t happen because the Lib Dem MP`s would shit themselves, knowing they could be almost wiped out, they will be anyway if they stay in the coalition, pulling out now might just save a few of their MP`s the chop

If you scour back across the years the governing parties always reduce their deficit from the by-elections/ mid term polls. For that reason the Lib Dems will retain about 40 seats, Cameron (if he hasn't been disposed) will lower taxes in 2014 (something the Tories always do before an election) and will do just enough for the Lib-Con coalition to continue. Labour will overall lose seats or have a gain of 10 at most. Labour will stand by Miliband and that will cost them dearly...

[mjdgreg]

If you scour back across the years the governing parties always reduce their deficit from the by-elections/ mid term polls. For that reason the Lib Dems will retain about 40 seats, Cameron (if he hasn't been disposed) will lower taxes in 2014 (something the Tories always do before an election) and will do just enough for the Lib-Con coalition to continue. Labour will overall lose seats or have a gain of 10 at most. Labour will stand by Miliband and that will coat him dearly...

Wise words indeed. If labour don't look like winning the next election then I'm of the opinion they could be in the wilderness for more than a decade. I'll be very happy if that comes to pass.

[danrover82]

Nick Clegg is the biggest tool is the worst tool box possible.


When I questioned him on the possible closure of the LGI Childrens Cardiac ward, asking how he could justify it, when the government insist that they are protecting the NHS. His reply was, that he wasn't sure who's decsion it was to possibly close the ward and look into it.  It was our NHS and we would have greater power with it.

So tell that the the thousands of families around yorkshire, that rely on this service to protect and save our childrens lives. Like Leeds did with My son twice.

Our NHS?
 It it was our NHS they wouldn't even be thinking of closing 1 ward nether mind half a dozen.

The goverment is a Joke!

[Filo]

Nick Clegg is the biggest tool is the worst tool box possible.


When I questioned him on the possible closure of the LGI Childrens Cardiac ward, asking how he could justify it, when the government insist that they are protecting the NHS. His reply was, that he wasn't sure who's decsion it was to possibly close the ward and look into it.  It was our NHS and we would have greater power with it.

So tell that the the thousands of families around yorkshire, that rely on this service to protect and save our childrens lives. Like Leeds did with My son twice.

Our NHS?
 It it was our NHS they wouldn't even be thinking of closing 1 ward nether mind half a dozen.

The goverment is a Joke!

The bungling fool is not sure about anything, unless his mate Dave tells him!