Panarama

[Donnyjim]

A disturbing insight into racism in the Ukraine and Poland. They should not have the euro's. It's not even like going back in time, the UK was never that bad! Stay at home and watch it on the tv guys. Stay safe! Bigots aside:

I'm sure one of their teams nicked our ZIGA ZAGA chant though???? 

[MartinB]

Sounds like the usual shocking documentary the bbc usually pulls off. I've not seen it yet but guessing one or two shocking scenes and Ukraine is a horrible fascist place? Designed to get viewers and cause controversy...nothing more.

Don't go to the Olympics...look at the riots!

[hoolahoop]

Sounds like the usual shocking documentary the bbc usually pulls off. I've not seen it yet but guessing one or two shocking scenes and Ukraine is a horrible fascist place? Designed to get viewers and cause controversy...nothing more.

Don't go to the Olympics...look at the riots!

Sorry have to disagree Martin................it looked bad enough to me.

[RoversAlias]

I didn't see it but I saw the usual accusations of sensationalism from the BBC in comments on Facebook, can't say that would surprise me. Not that there isn't a problem in the Ukraine/Poland mind.

The media never passes up an opportunity to scaremonger.

[silent majority]

I'm still going, and I have heard similar before all previous tournaments. I have to say though, this has caused more heartache over flights, hotels, travel than any tournament I can remember. Its been, and still is, a nightmare.

[hoolahoop]

I didn't see it but I saw the usual accusations of sensationalism from the BBC in comments on Facebook, can't say that would surprise me. Not that there isn't a problem in the Ukraine/Poland mind.

The media never passes up an opportunity to scaremonger.

Of course it's safe , I'm thinking about taking arr lass and young'un for a bit of Jew baiting, a bout of 'Heil Hitlers' and flare chucking...........are you for real or merely blind ?

[VivaRovers]

Of course it's safe , I'm thinking about taking arr lass and young'un for a bit of Jew baiting, a bout of 'Heil Hitlers' and flare chucking...........are you for real or merely blind ?

And I'm never going to an away game in London, because its a certainty I will get caught up in a riot and the locals will firebomb my jacket pocket and loot my bag

[roverstillidie91]

Why did Fifa decide to hold the euro's in Poland and Ukraine ??

its same as Qatar, to do with alcohol and homosexuals or something along them lines

bunch of bafoons the lot of them

its our sport, we invented it you would of thought we should be able to govern it not Sepp Blatter who doesn't like the English anyway and seeing as its a bit of a coincidence they should attempt to scrap penalty shoot outs ... and oo an english teams just won it, what a suprise hes mooted it

and then there is Platini who wants to introduce financial fair play just cos all the french times are w**k + never do anything and the english teams do well in europe ( most of the time )

[RoversAlias]

I didn't see it but I saw the usual accusations of sensationalism from the BBC in comments on Facebook, can't say that would surprise me. Not that there isn't a problem in the Ukraine/Poland mind.

The media never passes up an opportunity to scaremonger.

Of course it's safe , I'm thinking about taking arr lass and young'un for a bit of Jew baiting, a bout of 'Heil Hitlers' and flare chucking...........are you for real or merely blind ?

I stated in the post you quoted that I wasn't denying there is a problem over there. I'm just saying the BBC will never pass up the opportunity to make the very most out of possible disasterous implications of going to these events. As SM said the same kind of stuff has been said before previous tournaments in other nations.

[FuzzyDuck]

I was in Germany for the 2006 World Cup and can remember Panorama showing violence involving England fans in Frankfurt after their first game, which was hosted in the city.  All I can say is that I was at a fan-Fest for that game and all others.  I saw no trouble at all, in fact it was very good-natured between our fans and all other nationalities.  I'd even say the Brits were going out of their way to be nice to the Germans in the main.

In other words, Panorama had gone out of their way to find some trouble and then presented it as the norm.  It quite simply was not.

I so wish they hadn't done that.  Now some people ignore these stories treating them as sensationalism.  The program last night looked far worse than the German coverage, for a start, most of the trouble shown was inside stadia.  Lots of fences and screens which means that if something does get started, it could be difficult to get away.

It was all very worrying and despite what I know of Panorama's previous poor reporting, I wouldn't go near Poland or the Ukraine for the Euros.  I'll be watching at my local football club.

[drfcsteve]

Even before panarama a number of people and players had warned about not traveling for fears of violence and racism. I don't see why people are complaining about the programme, if it didn't happen they couldn't show anything.

[DearneValleyRover]

Well I did watch it. Yes the Beeb (Panarama, in particular) sensationalised it, let's be fair it's their job and it's up to the viewer to read through it. Having stated that, neither country deserves the tournement as they do have a real problem with both racism and violence. I doubt that there will be any major problems with the eyes of the world watching as both countries security forces will not tolerate this behaviour during the tournement unlike during domestic games.

[PDS]

I think the point is that if you look hard enough, you can find examples to scare and cast doubt over any event you choose.

It would be very easy for a programme maker to pull something together with footage of last years london riots and a couple of union militants talking of widespread industrial action to paint a picture of anarchy for the olympics.

I went to the South Africa world cup slightly fearful. If you beleived the reports i was either going to be car-jacked, mugged, stabbed, shot, robbed in the hotel, sexually assaulted, treated as easy pickings and inevitably end up with aids given the rife nature of the disease in that area of the world. In actual fact, we had a great time, there was no bother at all, south africans were very welcoming and proud of having the tournament in their country and their only resentment of the tourists was that it took a world cup to make the streets safe to walk down.

They drum this sort of stuff up at every tournament. You just need to have a little common sense as you would in any major city

[Capmeister]

Germany '06 was fantastic. Really well organised. The most depressing thing was a group of English piss 'eads doing Nazi salutes near Nuremberg train station. Made my stomach churn. I even became embarrassed by the 10 German bombers chant. As for South Africa, now that was feking scary. Jo'burg being the worst. Fortunately, I didnt hang around long. Cape Town was flooded with extra rozzers as was Port Liz. You ad to get to the game through a ghetto and after the match it was well intimidating. Did get a photo outside the ground with Kammy tho

[drfcsteve]

I can't believe people are saying its sensationalist, they spent a month there and in that time they saw:

- Thousands of fans chanting and displaying hateful banners and tshirts towards Jews.
- Thousands of fans making monkey noises to black players.
- Fans attacking police and stewards unprovoked.
- Fans throwing missiles and flares inside stadiums.
- Thousands of fans doing Nazi salutes and chanting about Hitler.
- Fans attacking sections of their own supporters for not being white.
- Police and stewards taking no action at any of the stadiums.
- A senior official denying that racism takes place inside the stadiums.

How some people can say the BBC is just scaremongering is beyond me.

[DRFC-PERKINS]

I can't believe people are saying its sensationalist, they spent a month there and in that time they saw:

- Thousands of fans chanting and displaying hateful banners and tshirts towards Jews.
- Thousands of fans making monkey noises to black players.
- Fans attacking police and stewards unprovoked.
- Fans throwing missiles and flares inside stadiums.
- Thousands of fans doing Nazi salutes and chanting about Hitler.
- Fans attacking sections of their own supporters for not being white.
- Police and stewards taking no action at any of the stadiums.
- A senior official denying that racism takes place inside the stadiums.

How some people can say the BBC is just scaremongering is beyond me.

I'm in the same boat as you mate, if anyone watched it they know full well that there are troubles in these two countries. Hopefully the two goverments will have plently of police/capable stewards in place and no one will suffer from these hooligans. However the fact is even if it all goes well, both country's football seasons will start again next season and still have the ultras calling the shots and being racist/homophobic/pro nazi/anti semitic and more, it's a sad state of affairs.

[Thinwhiteduke]

I can't believe people are saying its sensationalist, they spent a month there and in that time they saw:

- Thousands of fans chanting and displaying hateful banners and tshirts towards Jews.
- Thousands of fans making monkey noises to black players.
- Fans attacking police and stewards unprovoked.
- Fans throwing missiles and flares inside stadiums.
- Thousands of fans doing Nazi salutes and chanting about Hitler.
- Fans attacking sections of their own supporters for not being white.
- Police and stewards taking no action at any of the stadiums.
- A senior official denying that racism takes place inside the stadiums.

How some people can say the BBC is just scaremongering is beyond me.

Exactly.

It was there for all to see.

Are people on here trying to say the Nazi salutes, monkey noises and beating up of own fans just because of the colour of their skin is staged? Or worse acceptable?

The disgusting factor was the head of police claiming there was no problem whatsoever and the Nazi Salute was simply one set of supporters 'pointing' at the opposition set. With that sort of delusional attitude and downright lies - they'll never sort the issue out....wouldnt fill me with confidence that Im safe over there with that delusional muppet in charge.

[FuzzyDuck]

Back at Germany '06, although I saw no trouble, I did hear some idiots singing songs about Germans bombing us and us shooting them down. Total prats, the lot of them.  Incidentally, if you are seen doing a nazi salute; chanting "Sieg heil" or displaying a swastika in any way, you have committed a criminal offence in Germany.

Back to Poland/Ukraine - they definately have major football-related violence problems.  The perpetrators claim to be proud of their countries so lets hope this pride leads to them not causing trouble during the tournament.

That said I wouldn't risk it.

[Donnybob]

There was a similar programme on Sky Sports a week or so ago. Thing is, we're not talking about 90 minutes here we're talking about a near month-long tournament. Fans will be in those countries 24 hours a day during that period and the forces that might defend and protect inside the stadiums cannot do the same rouns the clock across two countries. The level of racism and anti-semitism broadcast in those two programmes suggests it would be a very foolish of any coloured individual to attend or anyone wearing a Tottenham shirt because the fans made that connection with Jews on the Sky show.

The response from FIFA so far deafening again, eh? Problem, what problem? Everything's gonna be alright...

[donnyroversfc]

The security will be that large and strong that i doubt very much if any trouble actually occurs.

The trouble kicks off during their domestic games, which gets hardly any coverage... This is a competition that will be watched worldwide, they will not want their country shown up so the security in place will be enough to stop any aggro.

They'll be more trouble back here in england during the euro's than there will be in Poland/Ukraine.

[Jonathan]

Some sketchy use of the term sensationalism. They didn't invent anything that wasn't going on. It may have been unrepresentative of the wider population (infact I'm sure it was) but the footage they did get was absolutely disgusting and frightening. Violence on a level nobody should have to experience.

You can't blame the BBC. It's clearly a problem and, minority or not, that cannot be glossed over or allowed.

As it happens I hope and expect that it won't spoil a great tournament and I hope all the England fans come home safe and happy. Sol Campbell's comments were perhaps inflammatory, but alongside the footage being shown you could kind of see his point. What perhaps needs emphasisng is the fact that the overwhelming majority of Poles and Ukraninans will be excited at the prospect of hosting a great event, and will condemn the other side of things as much as any rational person would.

[ditch_drfc]

Although what it showed was extremely unacceptable, what country doesn't have this kind of thing going off inside it? f**k me when the edl come out in England, the same racism is shown towards people. They showed a minority on the bbc not the majority. I very much doubt Ukraine/Poland will be an unsafe environment for fans. It's so stupid. I hate how the English press report on this utter bullshit, trying to scaremonger, because that's all it is.

[bobjimwilly]

Great post Jonathan 

[drfcsteve]

Although what it showed was extremely unacceptable, what country doesn't have this kind of thing going off inside it? f*** me when the edl come out in England, the same racism is shown towards people. They showed a minority on the bbc not the majority. I very much doubt Ukraine/Poland will be an unsafe environment for fans. It's so stupid. I hate how the English press report on this utter bullshit, trying to scaremonger, because that's all it is.

When was the last time all the things I listed above happened in England within a month? Absolutely stupid comparison, it doesn't happen in every country like you say and it certainly doesn't happen in ours.

[bobjimwilly]

Although what it showed was extremely unacceptable, what country doesn't have this kind of thing going off inside it? f*** me when the edl come out in England, the same racism is shown towards people. They showed a minority on the bbc not the majority. I very much doubt Ukraine/Poland will be an unsafe environment for fans. It's so stupid. I hate how the English press report on this utter bullshit, trying to scaremonger, because that's all it is.

Scaremongering, yes. Bullshit, no.

When was the last time you went to any game in England and saw even a minority doing nazi salutes??

[drfcsteve]

I can't believe people are saying its sensationalist, they spent a month there and in that time they saw:

- Thousands of fans chanting and displaying hateful banners and tshirts towards Jews.
- Thousands of fans making monkey noises to black players.
- Fans attacking police and stewards unprovoked.
- Fans throwing missiles and flares inside stadiums.
- Thousands of fans doing Nazi salutes and chanting about Hitler.
- Fans attacking sections of their own supporters for not being white.
- Police and stewards taking no action at any of the stadiums.
- A senior official denying that racism takes place inside the stadiums.

How some people can say the BBC is just scaremongering is beyond me.

Exactly.

It was there for all to see.

Are people on here trying to say the Nazi salutes, monkey noises and beating up of own fans just because of the colour of their skin is staged? Or worse acceptable?

The disgusting factor was the head of police claiming there was no problem whatsoever and the Nazi Salute was simply one set of supporters 'pointing' at the opposition set. With that sort of delusional attitude and downright lies - they'll never sort the issue out....wouldnt fill me with confidence that Im safe over there with that delusional muppet in charge.

Couldn't agree more with the last paragraph, it was like something you'd see from a Chinese or North Korean official, "Racism, what racism? There is no racism in this country, stop asking questions".

[RoversAlias]

"Since BBC panorama came out we've learned that they: didn't use their interview with Saidi Ntibazonkiza from Cracovia because he's black Muslim who's not suffered racial abuse & is idolised by club's fans. Didn't show anything from Maor Melikson who's an Israeli Jew playing for Wisla Krakov & claims to have never suffered antisemitism. Also learned that BBC decided not to show any of their film from Polonia Warsaw (they have an area near the stadium dedicated to the uprising against Hitler) because it didn't fit agenda."

Nope, no scaremongering or sensationalism at all!

[silent majority]

I had a look around You Tube and found the previous Panorama programme that they did just after the World Cup in 2006 which focussed on the xenophobia of English fans. Its actually in 7 parts but this one, part 3 is based mostly in Nuremberg. If you're interested my interview is at 2m30 secs in and the cricket match I organised is at 6 minutes in. There were 70,000 England fans in Nuremberg for those few days, and only about 4,000 of us actually had tickets to the game.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9WpaDXBDt4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9WpaDXBDt4</a>

[PDS]

Out of interest, how many of those saying it's sensationalism or those saying it's an accurate portrayal actually travel abroad to watch football? Are you basing your views and expectation on what you've been shown on the TV or through experience?

Danny Dyer did a series on football firms a few years ago roughly the same time i started following England. He visited quite a few of the grounds / cities i subsequently went to. Each time he showed footage of it "getting pretty nawty" quickly followed by him papping himself in fear and leaving the ground. He managed to rustle up some footage and whilst i'm not saying these trips were incident free (they weren't - some people had very poor experiences in Moscow and at the hands of the police in Zagreb), what you saw in the grounds in the programme did not match the reality. there may of course be a big difference in watching international vs club football and it's rivalries.

[Jonathan]

For me the purpose of the programme needs separating from Sol Campbell's statement. To suggest people will die if they go to the tournament is inflammatory and there is a case to say it's scare mongering.

However, if the programme was made to highlight the fact that extremely violent racism is a problem in that area then I don't think its accuracy can be disputed. It may well have been unrepresentative of the wider population and, like all documentaries and even 'the news,' footage is selected to portray a certain and chosen theme. However that footage inside the stadium wasn't staged or invented, and that kind of thing shouldn't just be dismissed or swept under the carpet.

However big or small on a relative scale, it it still a serious problem that should be addressed by the authorities. Hopefully it has been and nothing like that will be seen in the tournament.