Who Got Thrown out At Hartlepool?

[hoolahoop]

No silent majority you are wrong.

If this was a minor scuffle why is there four pages on it???????

As I said when this gets into the Free Press and families who are potential fans see it then it will make them think twice about coming to games. It isn't the first time it has happened this season and we have a hooligan issue at the moment which needs stamping out.

If someone had fallen or stumbled over a seat and banged their head they could have died today. Would you have still called it a minor scuffle then.

It's down to the club now to tell a few fans in the minority who are spoiling it for the majority to pi$$ off!!!!!!

No I'm not. And I have much more experience in this area than you. So lets look at the points you are making.

Firstly, because there are 4 pages on this issue then its a major disturbance? Erm, I don't see the connection, its either a major disturbance involving hundreds of supporters or its not, the length of the thread doesn't make it more serious than it is.

We have a hooligan issue at the moment? Not according to the Safety Officers Association we don't, nor do we according to the local SAG or the local Police Liaison Officer. You need proof? Join me in my next meeting with them. Don't overreact is my stance.

People falling over a seat and banging their head could have died? Whilst I would never wish harm on anybody I do think you're searching for a reason to support your argument. There's much more chance of people falling over and getting hurt in stadiums that hold 70 or 80,00 people when goals are scored, certainly not in an away end that's got 600 people in it and a handful are having a scuffle. Don't over dramatise the situation.

Yes, if we can identify actual trouble makers, and believe you me the club, Police and Safety Officers know who these people are, then they will be dealt with. Lets keep our heads here.

SM you can make your points in the debate without being apparently both presumptive and condescending. I'm sure it was unintended as it has been on a number of your posts of late.  Alan , Dagenham and me think these events are beginning to escalate of late and far from over-reacting he is concerned as are others and to dismiss him is absurd.

[Blue Beard]

I'm a Hartlepool United fan who was at the game today and I'm sure that I can speak for a fair few of my fellow supporters when I say that we realise that every club has a minority of 'fans' who can't handle their ale, can't handle banter and largely fail to be decent human beings from time to time.

We all have them; we all suffer them.

On the whole - apart from you buggers getting that 89th minute equaliser , I had an enjoyable day today and had some craic with a few Donny lads in the Corner Flag pre-game.

A handful of our fans have done us a disservice over the last few years - and even very recently - and so we would hate for the wider footballing community to presume we were all inbred divs. So it would be ridiculous to tar each individual with the same brush.

I've heard nothing but good reports regarding Donny fans and could understand why the police presence today was minimal to say the least.

It's just an unfortunate occurrence - but it'll blow over I'm sure.

[StocktonRover]

I'm with SM on this one - this thread is blowing the whole incident out of proportion.

Being a local in the North East, I met up with a work colleague before the game for a drink and had banter with him through the game by phone - his take of the incident was a couple of fans having handbags, an overly enthusiastic bit of stewarding and punches thrown like girls....

Put into context, we have had no trouble whatsover at far more games than we have had trouble at - and lets not link the Orient incident as that was something totally different.

[dickos1]

Today's events can't be described as a major disturbance, there were 7 or 8 people involved. We do however have an increased number of 15,16,17 year olds that travel to away games and get bladdered, and they do their best to cause aggro, they like to think they're hooligans but I'm pretty sure if they came across a group of leeds, millwall fans they'd shit their pants.

[silent majority]

No silent majority you are wrong.

If this was a minor scuffle why is there four pages on it???????

As I said when this gets into the Free Press and families who are potential fans see it then it will make them think twice about coming to games. It isn't the first time it has happened this season and we have a hooligan issue at the moment which needs stamping out.

If someone had fallen or stumbled over a seat and banged their head they could have died today. Would you have still called it a minor scuffle then.

It's down to the club now to tell a few fans in the minority who are spoiling it for the majority to pi$$ off!!!!!!

No I'm not. And I have much more experience in this area than you. So lets look at the points you are making.

Firstly, because there are 4 pages on this issue then its a major disturbance? Erm, I don't see the connection, its either a major disturbance involving hundreds of supporters or its not, the length of the thread doesn't make it more serious than it is.

We have a hooligan issue at the moment? Not according to the Safety Officers Association we don't, nor do we according to the local SAG or the local Police Liaison Officer. You need proof? Join me in my next meeting with them. Don't overreact is my stance.

People falling over a seat and banging their head could have died? Whilst I would never wish harm on anybody I do think you're searching for a reason to support your argument. There's much more chance of people falling over and getting hurt in stadiums that hold 70 or 80,00 people when goals are scored, certainly not in an away end that's got 600 people in it and a handful are having a scuffle. Don't over dramatise the situation.

Yes, if we can identify actual trouble makers, and believe you me the club, Police and Safety Officers know who these people are, then they will be dealt with. Lets keep our heads here.

SM you can make your points in the debate without being apparently both presumptive and condescending. I'm sure it was unintended as it has been on a number of your posts of late.  Alan , Dagenham and me think these events are beginning to escalate of late and far from over-reacting he is concerned as are others and to dismiss him is absurd.

I disagree Hoola, and your falling into the same trap. I'm not presumptive or condescending but stating facts. Alan tells me I'm wrong but I'm condescending if I don't agree? I've been dealing with the Policing and Stewarding issues for the FSF for years and I've seen and heard it all. But I sit in meetings with the authorities where these issues are discussed and when I say that the SOFA and the local SAG think we don't have issues then we don't, lets not talk ourselves into a situation that doesn't exist.

This small issue this afternoon is a minor exception, lets not create a storm around something that we don't or can't know all the details about.

[MachoMadness]

For me it's not that it's a major thing, I accept that you're always going to get a few d**kheads who can't handle their beer trying to stir up trouble. However just this season we are having a few more problems than usual with a troublesome minority than we have for years. Usually this kind of thing would only happen a couple of times a season, if that (at least publicly anyway), but this season it seems like we've had a couple of incidents occur in a relatively small space of time. Maybe that's just with everyone being on facebook/twitter and spreading stuff about faster, I don't know.

It's just a bit worrying because with social media being what it is, it'll only take a couple more incidents and it'll be (rightly or wrongly) blown out of proportion by people as it spreads (as all stories are, it's human nature), and we'll be getting an unwanted reputation. And then the stewards WILL start being more heavy handed, and the d**khead element of other fans might start to become more prominent when we're in town, and so on. It doesn't take much with social media being what it is to spread a story, see: Orient.

[MrFrost]

No silent majority you are wrong.

If this was a minor scuffle why is there four pages on it???????

As I said when this gets into the Free Press and families who are potential fans see it then it will make them think twice about coming to games. It isn't the first time it has happened this season and we have a hooligan issue at the moment which needs stamping out.

If someone had fallen or stumbled over a seat and banged their head they could have died today. Would you have still called it a minor scuffle then.

It's down to the club now to tell a few fans in the minority who are spoiling it for the majority to pi$$ off!!!!!!

No I'm not. And I have much more experience in this area than you. So lets look at the points you are making.

Firstly, because there are 4 pages on this issue then its a major disturbance? Erm, I don't see the connection, its either a major disturbance involving hundreds of supporters or its not, the length of the thread doesn't make it more serious than it is.

We have a hooligan issue at the moment? Not according to the Safety Officers Association we don't, nor do we according to the local SAG or the local Police Liaison Officer. You need proof? Join me in my next meeting with them. Don't overreact is my stance.

People falling over a seat and banging their head could have died? Whilst I would never wish harm on anybody I do think you're searching for a reason to support your argument. There's much more chance of people falling over and getting hurt in stadiums that hold 70 or 80,00 people when goals are scored, certainly not in an away end that's got 600 people in it and a handful are having a scuffle. Don't over dramatise the situation.

Yes, if we can identify actual trouble makers, and believe you me the club, Police and Safety Officers know who these people are, then they will be dealt with. Lets keep our heads here.

SM you can make your points in the debate without being apparently both presumptive and condescending. I'm sure it was unintended as it has been on a number of your posts of late.  Alan , Dagenham and me think these events are beginning to escalate of late and far from over-reacting he is concerned as are others and to dismiss him is absurd.

I disagree Hoola, and your falling into the same trap. I'm not presumptive or condescending but stating facts. Alan tells me I'm wrong but I'm condescending if I don't agree? I've been dealing with the Policing and Stewarding issues for the FSF for years and I've seen and heard it all. But I sit in meetings with the authorities where these issues are discussed and when I say that the SOFA and the local SAG think we don't have issues then we don't, lets not talk ourselves into a situation that doesn't exist.

This small issue this afternoon is a minor exception, lets not create a storm around something that we don't or can't know all the details about.

It clearly isn't an exception though is it? There have been several other incidents this season alone.

[NathanDRFC]

Get fined by the FA? Why? Firstly this competition has nothing to do with the FA, so they have no right to get involved. If you meant the Football league then you may be correct but they won't be interested in a minor scuffle between a few fans and a couple of stewards.

All offences on or around the field of play come under the FA.
The FA could/will act as this is a breach of FA Regs E20A and the fan entering the pitch is an E20(b) offence.

[hoolahoop]

Ouch SM won't be happy with that post if correct Nath

[Barmby Rover]

So proud to have this sort of fan on board, can they all go away and start watching Millwall with the other numpties please? The rest of us just want to watch football at a football ground, not be bothered looking over our shoulders at which knuckle dragger will start to kick off next. Chuck 'em out forever, they are not welcome.

[Sammy Chung was King]

According to the Radio Sheffield commentator,the trouble was caused by a ball-boy and the away following was about 1600 i take it from what's been said both are wrong?,don't be surprised if the trouble was caused by people from Donny who actually support other teams!!

[MachoMadness]

Think you might have some wires crossed there SCWK, the ball boy incident was over at the Blades game! I did hear them say the away following was 1600 though, when it was apparently just above 600.

[Sammy Chung was King]

Oh right macho,i don't think my hearings what it was,worrying when your only in your thirties!!,i thought there was no way it could be right,six hundred that's a good following,shame about the incident's but they do sound like a very small minority,though there do need to be some standards in society in general for me,if someone try's to enter a ground and they've had too much to drink,they shouldn't be let in for me,it's people like that who will eventually lead to decent supporters not being able to have a drink at the game,which would be a shame.

[silent majority]

 

Ouch SM won't be happy with that post if correct Nath

Give over Hoola, Nathan is talking about the fan entering the pitch whereas everybody else is talking about the incident in the stands. Not the same issue.

The FA are pretty much toothless anyway, they have no history of getting involved at this level over such minor incidents. Today's game was part of the FL competition, a lg1 fixture, and if anybody has anything to say it will be them.

 

[wilts rover]

I think you are wrong SM

20. Each Affiliated Association, Competition and Club shall be responsible for ensuring:
 
(a) that its directors, players, officials, employees, servants, representatives,
 
spectators, and all persons purporting to be its supporters or followers, conduct
 
themselves in an orderly fashion and refrain from any one or combination of the
 
following: racist, violent, threatening, abusive, obscene or provocative behaviour,
 
conduct or language whilst attending at or taking part in a Match in which it is
 
involved, whether on its own ground or elsewhere; and


it seems quite clear to me there, our supporters are required to conduct themselves in an orderly fashion and they have not done so. I dont really know why you are trying to defend it? I can understand the need to put it in perspective, but it is something we dont need. People go to football matches to watch football, not to be abused.

We have had an unpleasant element at Rovers for sometime now and in my opinion the VSC should be looking to take a lead on stamping it out rather than looking for ways to condone and downplay it.

Speaking only for myself the abuse of our own players and general antagonistic attitude at the Keepmoat doesnt really enthuse me to drive 300+ miles to 'enjoy it'. How many other local people has it put off? And the 'muppet' at Yeovil may only have been one bloke annoying a few people, but there is no need for it.

[donnievic]

Interesting if thats the case, and not the first time I've known seating cause trouble.

Personally I'm backing the bloke standing up - its a football match, people stand up, accept it or f&ck off! Come on... lets ave yer then yer fat arsed sitters!

[/b]

Its ok saying that in most cases but the lad who was stood up was on the 3rd row and wasn't even (sat or stood)there,he went to talk to a mate and was also one of the pissed up ones in the crowd,a few year back stewards wouldn't of let a dozen or so would't have normally got in.

 As for those who didn't go and want to know what happened,you should of paid  the £25 like the rest of us lol,must it was funny though seeing what looked like a 12 year old wanting to fight a steward.

[donnievic]

Rovers fans were trying and failing to stop it the whole time, the one bloke who was grabbed by the throat  was being verbally abused by fans at the back of the stand too, knock your teeth out etc.
But he just wouldn't shut up the guy, too pissed.
Just don't think we can blame the stewards on this occasion, even at the end near the toilets there were young lads speaking to the stewards and police like they were some kind of gangster.

The guy who went and stood down near the front was the lad from the back who was pissed,if your saying the steawards were right going in which did make it alot worse maybe they were right but it really only all kicked off when they tried to get one of the lads and get him out and then his mates were trying to stop them doing it.Pherhaps the other lad(wasnt pissed) mentioning no names who eventually grabbed hold of the other lad in the 1st place shouldn't have called him back down from the back.

 Another note on the stewards if people say they were only doing there job is where all the idoit pissed up fans were at the back who about 20 rolled in right on the kick off then wanted the seats behind the goal all deciced to stand with others so there was 3 people stood in front of one seat.

[The Red Baron]

Blimey- five pages! I was expecting a re-run of Luton v Millwall 1985, not a few lads who couldn't handle their ale.

I think the chap from Hartlepool put it into perspective rather well.

[hoolahoop]

I'm with wilts, barmby, macho, daggers and many others on this one in that I agree that each incident (although fairly minor) when taken in isolation is beginning to add up to a catalogue of misbehaviour.
For years we as supporters have been generally treated fairly well when at away games due to the lack of trouble from our fans. If this continues then we will find our new reputation will proceed us and generally means tougher policing and stewarding for ALL our supporters when on their travels..........not a thought to be relished!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (for SM btw  )

The club, VSC and Supporters club should be doing all in their power to nip this in the bud. Do the supporters (I use this expression loosely) in question travel in the official coaches to away games for instance, if so don't allow them a seat. 

Incidentally for some on here to suggest that it is fans from 'other' clubs who are causing the trouble for us is simply ludicrous. Most are known to some and do they go to every away game now to swell our numbers ?

[Eagle eye]

Hartlepool Fans opinion. I looked on this from afar so I have no idea what was said, but this is how it look from my point of view. I could clearly see a scuffle between your supporters which quickly became an incident which the stewards had to respond to which is their job. The stewards went in to break up those fans who were holding on to each other.  Other Donny fans then joined in as is always the case from any set of supporters when they see their mates being manhandled by the stewards. I cannot say wether they were too heavy handed, but the stewards were then clearly attacked, ie punches thrown. One steward certainly fought back by throwing punches.  Despite the police being at the Vic yesterday in numbers (something our chairman was complaining about in the program before the game) it took a while before the got there to help the stewards. Further punches were thrown at the police. As is also typical in these situations the Donny fans (as others do) then started chanting.  Eventually more police came and 4 or 5 Donny fans were ejected.

Having read this thread it is clear that this was started because of a dispute over standing. The away end at the Vic is all seater for which away fans pay an over inflated price.  The fact that someone in the first 3 rows had got away with standing for enough time to cause a ruck is surprising. In recent seasons Pools' stewards have enforced the rules regarding no standing in seated areas quite robustly, however I can't recall that happening today.  Also, given that the stewards came from the corners of that stand they certainly weren't in your supporters faces when the incident started.

As far as this being a minor incident it didn't look like it. Any neutral observer would see stewards and police being puched as serious and especially for the times we live in and not the bad old days which some still want to live in. From the comments above you appear to be having some problems with a particular bunch of wannabe hooligans. Maybe this sad and sorry incident might be the opportunity for your club to sort them out. As for the empty seats. Yes there were plenty but why shouldn't someone sit in a seat they've paid a small fortune for. If you want to stand go to the back and do so, which most clubs allow and the fans want to do. Don't arrived drunk and usually late and expect to do what you want just because you are a so-called passionate football fan.  That doesn't excuse anti-social or criminal behaviour.  As for stewards, I've met some brilliant ones and some that have no idea how their behaviour impacts on the fans they are stewarding. However if the first response of the fans is to act aggresively towards them when they are doing their job then this kind of thing is bound to happen. One final comment.  Good news of Pools fans went round the world back in May when a Smurf army went to Charlton. 2 home games ago the news was that Pools fans are racists because of one idiot shouting at black players.  Any incident like this can only be bad for your club whatever the rights or wrongs of it might be.

[hoolahoop]

Thank you Eagle Eye that was a good post and seems to reflect what most of us are saying on here i.e. there is no place for this behaviour anywhere and excusing it , pretending it was a minor incident, was caused by other clubs supporters etc. is simply not going to address the situation .
There are some on here that think these so called 'minor' incidents are both acceptable and de rigeur when going to a game. Currently I would not take my youngster to an away game whilst these nobheads are getting away with it.
In times of hardship , dwindling crowds etc we all need to make these environments as safe as possible for all without making them too sterile.
The problem needs addressing not brushing under the carpet as some would seek to do.

Good luck for the rest of the season btw..........

[silent majority]

 ;)Wilts,

I'm not defending or condoning the behaviour at all, what I'm suggesting though is that we should put this in perspective, we have not become a trouble club overnight, and the incident in terms of football issues is still a very small one. Admittedly for us it does seem a major issue, but that is because, in general, we have one of the best reputations in football, something to protect and be proud of.

Some of us, and here I'm going to wear my VSC and FSF hats, give up a lot of our spare time to help resolve issues with regard to fan behaviour and find better ways to police football matches. As I've stated on this thread already I've lost count of the amount of meetings I've attended with the Police, both local and national including ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) UKFPU (United Kingdom Football Police Unit) to get agreement on how football fans should be policed. The FSF are currently running some pilot programmes with WYP and more specifically with West Midlands Police in the hope that we can find a better balance. We engage with 'experts' in this field, people such as Dr Clifford Stott, who is recognised as the leading authority on how to control football crowds.

I also attend meetings with SOA (Safety Officers Association) and the local SAG (Safety Advisory Group), the FA, Premier League and Football League and the UKSGA (United Kingdom Sports Ground Safety Association) again in the hope that dialogue helps each party to understand the other. Its at these meetings that I often discuss the reputation that DRFC has as a club.

On top of that I've handled hundreds of cases for the FSF over the years where football fans have suffered at the hands of the authorities, sometimes in circumstances that you wouldn't have thought credible. I think all of that gives me a much better understanding of what football trouble and violence is about, what causes it and how to resolve it. I know that sounds somewhat condescending, but I do all of that because I like football and believe that 99.9% of football supporters deserve better treatment than what they currently get.

For all of you..

 

[Wellred]

I dare say it was probably a small flare up because someone was standing in front of someone who wanted to view the game from his seat without having to stand up.
We all know it is common sense that IF you want to stand up. (Something which isn't allowed in seating areas of football grounds incidentally) then you should go to the back of the stand.

I don't think it helps when certain individuals on this forum carry on this debate about whether or not they can or should stand at football matches.

Until standing is legalised then it is NOT ALLOWED and as long as people stand up in front of others who want to sit to watch the game then problems like this will happen again.

[The Red Baron]

I agree with SM. Don't forget that because these idiots chose to kick off inside the ground they will have been filmed on CCTV and indeed some may have been arrested on the day. They can be expecting a trip back up to Hartlepool, a fine and a banning order. That will stop them in their tracks and also maybe act as a deterrent to those who might fancy joining in another time.

As I said above, the size of the thread would make anyone think there was a full scale riot yesterday. It needs dealing with, certainly, but it doesn't mean we have a hooligan problem.

I actually found the accounts of fans who had been threatened and attacked walking back to the station after the game at Bramall Lane far scarier. I bet that happens every week, well away from the gaze of CCTV, and will seldom be dealt with by the police.

[The Red Baron]

I don't think it helps when certain individuals on this forum carry on this debate about whether or not they can or should stand at football matches.

Unless you have a debate, then you'll never change the legislation. And having a debate about the creation of safe standing areas is not the same as advocating illicit standing in seated areas.

Personally I think standing at football matches is a relic of a bygone era, rather like muddy pitches, balls with laces and oversized wooden rattles. But I'm not opposed to the issues being debated.

[dickos1]

I don't think anybody on here is suggesting it was acceptable

Thank you Eagle Eye that was a good post and seems to reflect what most of us are saying on here i.e. there is no place for this behaviour anywhere and excusing it , pretending it was a minor incident, was caused by other clubs supporters etc. is simply not going to address the situation .
There are some on here that think these so called 'minor' incidents are both acceptable and de rigeur when going to a game. Currently I would not take my youngster to an away game whilst these nobheads are getting away with it.
In times of hardship , dwindling crowds etc we all need to make these environments as safe as possible for all without making them too sterile.
The problem needs addressing not brushing under the carpet as some would seek to do.

Good luck for the rest of the season btw..........

I don't think anybody is saying what happened was acceptable, it was a small minority 2 or 3 people until the stewards came which they had to do.
And then there were 7 or 8 involved its not a major incident and probably happens on a weekly basis around the country.
But I do feel we have a bunch of clowns currently who come to the games thinking they're part of the football factory when in reality they're just little kids.
The incident didn't even involve them, but they got involved when the stewards and police came and 3 or 4 of them got arrested.

[silent majority]

I don't think it helps when certain individuals on this forum carry on this debate about whether or not they can or should stand at football matches.

Unless you have a debate, then you'll never change the legislation. And having a debate about the creation of safe standing areas is not the same as advocating illicit standing in seated areas.

Personally I think standing at football matches is a relic of a bygone era, rather like muddy pitches, balls with laces and oversized wooden rattles. But I'm not opposed to the issues being debated.

And this is where I pitch in with my bit about 'Safe Standing', if you want to know more here's a great place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_standing

[Alan_Rovers]

Silent majority, have you attended any meeting with police before???? I'm not sure if you have told us yet.

[silent majority]

Silent majority, have you attended any meeting with police before???? I'm not sure if you have told us yet.

Quite a few over the last 12 years or so. I obviously don't put the details on here.

[FuzzyDuck]

Ok I got through 2 pages of comments and can't stand to read any more.

"it was the steward's fault" - no it bloody wasn't! Of you can't watch a football match without having a scrap then I've no sympathy.  I can imagine some stewards aren't as good as others but they shouldn't be needing to get involved.

Stone wall gang?  Don't give these people tags or labels (other than brainless Pillocks) give their names over to the police and the club.  They should be banned for embarrassing my club, my home town and my county.