Something Is Rotten In The State Of Denmark

[RedArmy]

 i dont get the feeling for it anymore either, them days at belle vue when we'd have a million chances a good entertaining game or the first few years at the keepmoat the carlisle game for example when hayter scored that roar went on for ages, but its not there anymore no entertainment or buzz just boring.

[BobG]

PS I suppose, once again, I'm about to be cast in the role of Cassandra......[/quote]

More like Rodders. 
[/quote]

If being Rodders gets me that Cassandra - I'm well up for it!

BobG

[Viking Don]

i dont get the feeling for it anymore either, them days at belle vue when we'd have a million chances a good entertaining game or the first few years at the keepmoat the carlisle game for example when hayter scored that roar went on for ages, but its not there anymore no entertainment or buzz just boring.

Still, it's good to support your local team innit moite? Better than bein inda pub watchin Manure beat Villa eh?

[albie]

One thing, I think relevant, that's not been mentioned on this thread so far: who controls the power in DRFC today? It's an important question. We all know the answer of course. But no one has yet suggested that that is perhaps one of the reasons for JR's noticeable lack of visibility. I think that's a thought worth bearing in mind. Further, I think all this is a sign of things to come. Those with the power control the destiny. Just where are we going? DonnyBob has hit the nail right on the head.

BobG

PS I suppose, once again, I'm about to be cast in the role of Cassandra......

As an addition to what Bob G says, the elephant in the room is accountability, and how those who control the company show this.

The majority shareholders are owners of the club, but only JR sits on the Board. In theory, the BoD provides oversight and strategy, and Gavin as CEO implements that strategy.

If major shareholders are making decisions which properly should be made by the BoD, concerning finances and the business, then what is the point of the BoD if it has no real power?

I am not saying that anyone is doing anything underhand, simply that the arrangements are unusual, and I am not clear what the relationship between the BoD and the owners is, if it is different from above.

[BobG]

Or, Albie, about just who was behind the appointment of Gavin and who he takes his instructions from. I have no knowledge at all - but the possibilities are certainly there.


Another thought that makes me curious too: I have yet to see any explanation, any at all tbh, about why all these people have left the BoD. I used to know Stuart Highfield. Maybe I should give him a call? There's something behind it that's for sure. How many have gone in the last 6 or 8 months now? 4? 5? That's not just coincidence.  Something, something, is making them all leave. What is it I wonder?
Now that really is a question the VSC could ask....

Just one final thought: has the VSC been offered a seat on the Board since Andy Liney left and the VSC reinvigorated itself? That used to be one of JR's major selling points. What happened to that I wonder....?

BobG

[Sticky-Rover]

This thread is the perfect remedy for those with insomnia 

[BobG]

Well that just shows the level of your intellectual capacity then Sticky.

Bobg

[Sammy Chung was King]

The day John Ryan walks away from this club,will be a very sad day,and the end of a very enjoyable era,we as a set of supporters seem to have got snobs disease,a bit like those who support premier league teams,think they are better than you,we think we are better than the teams in this league,that we are somehow better,that we are slumming it,we've been in a league that looking at the size of our club,fanbase etc,is too big for us,but as we know just looking at Wigan as an example,it doesn't go on size of teams crowds,it goes on the vision of the manager in charge and the board of directors,and what they are prepared to give the manager to achieve,does anyone honestly think Dean Saunders doesn't see us as a stepping stone to better things,he doesn't want mediocrity,that's part of football getting the best out of what you want,and if you do well the manager will get head hunted for a bigger team,if he got us back in to the Championship,he would have done that good job,i agree with the original poster,that the league is a poor one and there for the taking,i myself have commented on lack of forward thinking in the past,but i think the board have supported the manager to a degree which it is possible to get promotion.
The board have allowed Dean to put a strong squad together,which admittedly a very team orientated squad,could do with a player or two of class to make the difference,i get bored of saying it there is very little between us and the very top teams,i understand that this could be our best chance of going up,with the league being so open,i want us as a club to go for it,but the main thing is that we have a club to support,we haven't the money coming in to make massive signings,and paying loads of money doesn't guarantee the player being what your looking for,remember Carl Alford and Justin Jackson?,big signings at the time for us but didn't work out,i'd like to see us signing say Joel Grant from Wycombe,can play both wings,so would put both wingers places in jeopardy,he can take a player on,this is what we need to get the edge in games in our league,it opens chances up if you have a player that can take two or three players on,another player i've always rated is Joe Garner,a good finisher,smaller type player,like Billy Sharp,who uses his football intelligence to get the space to score,both of these players wouldn't cost that much,if we had Garner,together with Brown,Paynter and Hume that creates massive competition for places,that's what makes the top teams,competition!!

[Sticky-Rover]

So claiming the club is going nowhere and has no plan with just over 1/4 of the season gone, and saying that the fans are alienated/divided/whatever based on what a few people on a message board say seems rather clever then?

[Bristol Red Rover]

If there is a problem with the set up of the club, it would be good to discuss something concrete rather than theorising.

Its a myth about the falling support when you compare like with like - sorry Frosty, do a proper analysis if you are going to try and bang that sham drum. Supporters come and go, always have, always will. That out of ten of whoever, only two still come is par for the course.

For sure we had a good season last time we were at this level, but compare now to 04/05, 05/06, 06/07 seasons and the crowds are up or equal. We had been on a roll with promotions, there was the League cup run and Cardiff and Stoke. We took that roll up into the Championship and had a MASSIVE boost in crowds. So, bubble burst and we are where we are - pretty good so far unless someone can be specific and point out where we are failing?

For sure it would have been good to hold onto some of the increased support. From the side, and in hindsight, there were things we could have done and didn't, but we had grown massively very quickly and that always causes problems in any business. Ten steps forwards and one back. JR and DS have stopped the tide pretty well so far, Canute would have been impressed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DonnyBob

You may, or may not have a valid thesis. I don't know.

I lost interest when you described this division as "tin pot".

I desperately hoped that, during our rise from the depths that we plumbed, we'd retain a sense of proportion and if respect for other clubs. It seems not in your case.

We've spent about 30 of the last 42 seasons playing below this level. Yet you call it "tin pot". When exactly did we earn the right to become so condescending about an excellent standard of football?

[Wellred]

DonnyBob

You may, or may not have a valid thesis. I don't know.

I lost interest when you described this division as "tin pot".

I desperately hoped that, during our rise from the depths that we plumbed, we'd retain a sense of proportion and if respect for other clubs. It seems not in your case.

We've spent about 30 of the last 42 seasons playing below this level. Yet you call it "tin pot". When exactly did we earn the right to become so condescending about an excellent standard of football?

When it suits certain people's agendas Billy

[Colin C No.3]

DonnyBob

You may, or may not have a valid thesis. I don't know.

I lost interest when you described this division as "tin pot".

I desperately hoped that, during our rise from the depths that we plumbed, we'd retain a sense of proportion and if respect for other clubs. It seems not in your case.

We've spent about 30 of the last 42 seasons playing below this level. Yet you call it "tin pot". When exactly did we earn the right to become so condescending about an excellent standard of football?

Can't for the life of me figure out how you would describe the standard of football we are 'enduring' at present as "excellent".

I'm truly astounded at the gulf (make that chasm) of the standard of football served up thus far in Lg1 as opposed to the Championship. I suppose that has been the most difficult thing to come to terms with for me.

Was it really as bad as this the last time we were'here'?

[The Red Baron]

I think BST is right in that we should not be "dissing" the fact we're playing in Division 3 when we have spent much of our history at or below this level. We're in danger of becoming as delusional as the "Champions of Europe" Leeds United about our place in the world.

However, I'd also agree very strongly with Colin C No.3 in that the standard of football is massively below what we've become accustomed to in the last few years. You are right- the standard is much lower- not to mention the quality. It reminds me of the sort of uninspiring fare that was served up at all levels of English football from the mid-80s to the early-90s.

Take the team we had in 2007-08 and put it into League One now and it would be strolling this division- the same goes for any of the top half-a-dozen sides of that era (Swansea, Forest, Leeds, Carlisle etc). By the same token, I think the team we have now would probably be in the bottom six if it travelled back in time a mere five years.

[silent majority]

Or, Albie, about just who was behind the appointment of Gavin and who he takes his instructions from. I have no knowledge at all - but the possibilities are certainly there.


Another thought that makes me curious too: I have yet to see any explanation, any at all tbh, about why all these people have left the BoD. I used to know Stuart Highfield. Maybe I should give him a call? There's something behind it that's for sure. How many have gone in the last 6 or 8 months now? 4? 5? That's not just coincidence.  Something, something, is making them all leave. What is it I wonder?
Now that really is a question the VSC could ask....

Just one final thought: has the VSC been offered a seat on the Board since Andy Liney left and the VSC reinvigorated itself? That used to be one of JR's major selling points. What happened to that I wonder....?

BobG

Change eh! Its a bugger that change thing, it just has to have an ulterior motive doesn't it.

Erm, but if everybody had been paying attention instead of hypothesising on the reasons why its happening then they would have noticed that the reasons have been discussed on here numerous times, but because they are not salacious tittle tattle then nobody pays attention.

This is not a personal attack on you Bob, but I am using the questions you have asked to frame my response to this, after all you have asked why we haven't asked the questions (but we have), albeit with bullet points.


The large board existed before the KM2 joined.
JR has been talking about slimming the board down for the last 5 years
The club now have owners meetings to make decisions rather than board meetings
JR was hurt by all the public flak he took last year and doesn't want to repeat that
Gavin was appointed by JR
Gavin had already had experience in running the Keepmoat when he worked for the local council
The Keepmoat is making a profit, which is part of the 3 year plan issued at the start of the season
The shareholders are having a public meeting early next year why not turn up??
There is a plan in place, its been elaborated  numerous times
The 3 main shareholders are happy with our position and are united in their goals for the club
Why does there have to be a conspiracy behind everything
No leadership? Crikey, do we want somebody like Ken Bates?


If you guys really want answers then join the VSC, I'll put you in front of anybody you want to talk to.

[BobG]

Lol SM. I don't know anything that's relevant. i just wonder - that's all. In the absence of knowledge it's a natural thing to do. Maybe there's nowt. Maybe there's summat. The point is, we don't know. If you are able to elucidate, brill!

Bob

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB.

I agree that the standard in this division is lower than it was last time we were here. Not sure I agree that it is THAT much lower.

We easily forget how bloody awful we were in the early stages of the promotion season. We were regularly nullified by some very straightforward sides. Of course, we had a golden couple of months from Xmas to early-March that gave the overall season its success, but that was sandwiched between some really very poor performances. If O'Driscoll's side struggled against well organised but limited sides in 07/08 like Cheltenham, Yeovil, Brighton, Oldham, Tranmere, etc I don't see why we'd expect things to be so very different against similar quality sides this year.

On playing personnel, my take is that the current first XI is similar in quality to the 07/08 vintage in some areas. Defence (right back omitted) and up front in particular. Of course, in central midfield and in goal we are a long way short of the 07/08 side. But then again, Saunders inherited a squad in crisis, not one that had been developed over several years, and hasn't had the funds to bring in the likes of Stock, Sullivan, Wellens et al.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Colin C

Can't for the life of me figure out how you would describe the standard of football we are 'enduring' at present as "excellent".

I chose that word to describe the standard of the division, compared to what I have witnessed over most of the previous 40 years.

Simple really.  I'm still chuffed to bits that we have a club to support and that it is playing better football, at a higher level, with better players, against better quality opposition than I could expect us to do over most of the period 1972-2000-odd.

Some apparently see "merely" grinding out results at the top end of Div 3 as beneath a club of our quality. For me, given the dross I endured for most of my time as a Rovers fan, and especially given the turmoil of the previous 2 years, I'll grab it with both hands.

[Colin C No.3]

Colin C

Can't for the life of me figure out how you would describe the standard of football we are 'enduring' at present as "excellent".

I chose that word to describe the standard of the division, compared to what I have witnessed over most of the previous 40 years.

Simple really.  I'm still chuffed to bits that we have a club to support and that it is playing better football, at a higher level, with better players, against better quality opposition than I could expect us to do over most of the period 1972-2000-odd.

Some apparently see "merely" grinding out results at the top end of Div 3 as beneath a club of our quality. For me, given the dross I endured for most of my time as a Rovers fan, and especially given the turmoil of the previous 2 years, I'll grab it with both hands.

I've been on 'The bus' since 1968 & have witnessed more lows than highs, but I'm still 'here'.

Using the word excellent to describe the standard of football we are currently watching still baffles me. Am I missing something here?

To say you're using it in the context of what you've witnessed in the past 40 years following the Rovers is a 'tad' ambiguous.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Colin C

Once again, I used the word to describe the standard of the DIVISION. It was in response to DonnyBob calling it a tin pot division.

But since you raise the issue, I'd prefer to watch Rob Jones, Tommy Spurr, David Cotterill, Kyle Bennett and Ian Hume grinding out results at the top of Div 3 than watch some of the dross we've had over the years getting arseholed week in week out at the bottom of Div 4 or in the Conference.

I'm funny like that.

[keepmoatman]

Sadly there were 11 of usall STH's at OBV and the KMS.........there are only the 2 of us who now go regularly and neither of us have season tickets. In my case it's due to my new working hours.
Would I stop going ? Not a chance but there have been a chain of events that have caused this negativity and a split in the fanbase.
Deriding/ignoring DB's post is not the answer , he has made many valid points and hasn't imo derided JR in any way whatsoever. I sense despair in his post and simply can't understand why he merits simple 'one liner' blase and childish responses.
Strange how many couldn't bother to read it but still felt inclined to comment on it's content. 

Only  2  said they could not be bothered to read it and neither of us commented on its content . Try Again !

[Donnybob]

DonnyBob

You may, or may not have a valid thesis. I don't know.

I lost interest when you described this division as "tin pot".

I desperately hoped that, during our rise from the depths that we plumbed, we'd retain a sense of proportion and if respect for other clubs. It seems not in your case.

We've spent about 30 of the last 42 seasons playing below this level. Yet you call it "tin pot". When exactly did we earn the right to become so condescending about an excellent standard of football?

I must confess I always listen to what BST has to say. He frequently writes with a maturity that’s clearly lacking in the posts of many. However, in this instance, I feel he’s overlooking several important details.

The business that is Doncaster Rovers in the 21st Century is a far cry from his references to the last Century. Indeed it is so far removed as to be an inconsequential comparison and an insult to those who led the dramatic and long overdue change. It is the same club in name only. It is a new business operating in new premises with different managerial ambition. The financial rules have changed, the rules on the pitch have changed, the whole game has changed and the club itself declared a different set of aspirations.

Belle Vue was a shambles.
In the 1960’s I regularly sat in the Pigeon Shed before it burned down.
In the early 70’s I stood on the popular side. Unfortunately the stand collapsed and was demolished.
In the late 70’s I sat in the main stand and that was set fire to by the Chairman’s accomplices.
Doncaster Rovers was a tin pot club. A standing joke.
However, I did attend games during that era where the declared attendances were quite remarkable. Burnley – 24,000. Darlington – 22,000 (in Div 4). Luton – 17,000. Notts County – 17,000 (again Div 4). In 1966 the Rovers played in 5 consecutive home games in Div 4 where each crowd was in excess of 15,000. Some of these were night matches. Clearly the club has always had the potential to draw bigger crowds than 5,000.

The post Bell Vue set-up is not comparable with the vast majority of current 3rd and 4th tier clubs. It far exceeds their facilities on every level. We are not a Hartlepool, a Brentford, a Barnet, Lincoln City, Mansfield, Bradford Park Avenue, Newport County, Southport, Workington, Rochdale, Grimsby Town, Luton, Wrexham, Hereford, Aldershot, Newport or Cambridge. All teams that once we would have been favourably compared with or even looked up to.

Doncaster Rovers off the field has grown yet right now we are barely competing on the field with clubs like Stevenage, Crawley and Milton Keynes Dons.

The Board built a Championship club. Surely John Ryan’s vision wasn’t to reach the promised land and then implode, for the club to tear itself apart? There is every justification in calling League One 2012/3 a tin pot league and I’m disappointed that you choose not to recognise this. I merely called it as I see it and cited as evidence a list of teams that recently left it behind. There is but one club in the whole Division today that compares favourably with those mentioned. The facilities at the Keepmoat and at our training ground are far superior to those of 90% of the teams in this league and the one below. Many are light years behind us. We’ve earned the right to see ourselves as a cut above. That view is not disproportionate.

Unfortunately we’ve very quickly fallen behind off the field in our ambitions. We no longer have a declared vision, there’s no clear direction and a lack of visible leadership. Without this, what is there to believe in and to support? Blind faith and hope is all fine and dandy but that isn’t what delivered a decade of growth and success.

Yes Billy, we may have traded at a level below the current one in 30 of the last 42 years but can you not recognise that is an irrelevance? Doncaster Rovers today shares only a name with the club I grew up supporting. Past failures don’t excuse the current lack of direction, it doesn’t make the current brand of football any more palatable and it doesn’t make the current League One any more or less than tin pot. It is a VERY poor league. In much worse state than when we left it last time.

You suggest League One is an excellent standard of football and I smile, for you will still remember the QPR of 1969, Graham Taylor’s Lincoln City and 3rd Division Swindon winning the League Cup. And that was against a backdrop where the top division was populated by English owned teams fielding the very best of the home nation’s footballers. Today the Premiership is a World league and it’s fair to argue that the Championship represents the old 1st Division bolstered by an influx of lesser International status players.

League One should realistically represent the old second tier at least. Where players just short of the England team plied their trade. Sadly it doesn’t. It’s tin pot and we both know it.

And to those who think anyone who criticises John Ryan is the anti-Christ, just think on. If an oil sheikh turned up tomorrow wanting to invest a few hundred million in your club you’d usher him out of the door as cheerfully as you’ve stabbed players in the back who served you so well on the rise through the leagues.

[The Red Baron]

Doncaster Rovers off the field has grown yet right now we are barely competing on the field with clubs like Stevenage, Crawley and Milton Keynes Dons.

The Board built a Championship club. Surely John Ryan’s vision wasn’t to reach the promised land and then implode, for the club to tear itself apart?

Bob- I agree that the Board built a Championship club. The problem was that they didn't get the levels of support they had hoped for. I think they were expecting gates of 12-13K in the Championship and for whatever reasons those never materialised. As a result the club was making huge losses and would have been hugely in debt had JR and the others not funded those losses.

Now the club needs to be rebuilt from bottom up- otherwise we will end up hugely in debt and going down the same road as Plymouth, Portsmouth etc.

My main gripe with this season is that the football at the Keepmoat is so lacking in entertainment value- to the point where it is driving the punters away. I don't expect us to be pushing for the play-offs, less still automatic promotion. But I do wish we could do "mid-table rebuilding" a bit more stylishly- on the field at least!

[bobjimwilly]

Thanks for the detailed post bob but I feel I need to comment on a few things:

Doncaster Rovers off the field has grown yet right now we are barely competing on the field with clubs like Stevenage, Crawley and Milton Keynes Dons.

We're 2 points behind MK Dons and outside the playoffs with a game in hand, only 3 points behind Crawley and 5 points behind Stevenage? How exactly are we "barely competing"?

The Board built a Championship club. Surely John Ryan’s vision wasn’t to reach the promised land and then implode, for the club to tear itself apart?

How exactly is the club imploding or ripping itself apart?

Unfortunately we’ve very quickly fallen behind off the field in our ambitions. We no longer have a declared vision, there’s no clear direction and a lack of visible leadership.

JR is still the chairman, the board are making money available when Dean wants it and have put more money into the squad than the majority of teams in the division? We have a new Chief Exec who is clearly a leader. Dean has said on more than one occasion is overally objective is consolidation this season, with the ultimate aim making the playoffs.

It is a VERY poor league. In much worse state than when we left it last time.

I agree with this, although there is a huge difference between "poor league" and "tin pot" league.

League One should realistically represent the old second tier at least. Where players just short of the England team plied their trade. Sadly it doesn’t. It’s tin pot and we both know it.

The old second tier is now the championship, where many internationals ply their trade. We play in the old 3rd tier. Not that hard really?

And to those who think anyone who criticises John Ryan is the anti-Christ, just think on. If an oil sheikh turned up tomorrow wanting to invest a few hundred million in your club you’d usher him out of the door as cheerfully as you’ve stabbed players in the back who served you so well on the rise through the leagues.

What an outrageous sweeping statement! I think I can speak for the majority on this forum and say we definitely would not usher JR out the door in return for promises of money and glory!

[silent majority]

And to those who think anyone who criticises John Ryan is the anti-Christ, just think on. If an oil sheikh turned up tomorrow wanting to invest a few hundred million in your club you’d usher him out of the door as cheerfully as you’ve stabbed players in the back who served you so well on the rise through the leagues.

What an outrageous sweeping statement! I think I can speak for the majority on this forum and say we definitely would not usher JR out the door in return for promises of money and glory!

[/quote]

We might not, but I tell you who would be the first to usher the oil sheik in, and that would be JR himself!

[Filo]

DonnyBob

You may, or may not have a valid thesis. I don't know.

I lost interest when you described this division as "tin pot".

I desperately hoped that, during our rise from the depths that we plumbed, we'd retain a sense of proportion and if respect for other clubs. It seems not in your case.

We've spent about 30 of the last 42 seasons playing below this level. Yet you call it "tin pot". When exactly did we earn the right to become so condescending about an excellent standard of football?

I must confess I always listen to what BST has to say. He frequently writes with a maturity that’s clearly lacking in the posts of many. However, in this instance, I feel he’s overlooking several important details.

The business that is Doncaster Rovers in the 21st Century is a far cry from his references to the last Century. Indeed it is so far removed as to be an inconsequential comparison and an insult to those who led the dramatic and long overdue change. It is the same club in name only. It is a new business operating in new premises with different managerial ambition. The financial rules have changed, the rules on the pitch have changed, the whole game has changed and the club itself declared a different set of aspirations.

Belle Vue was a shambles.
In the 1960’s I regularly sat in the Pigeon Shed before it burned down.
In the early 70’s I stood on the popular side. Unfortunately the stand collapsed and was demolished.
In the late 70’s I sat in the main stand and that was set fire to by the Chairman’s accomplices.
Doncaster Rovers was a tin pot club. A standing joke.
However, I did attend games during that era where the declared attendances were quite remarkable. Burnley – 24,000. Darlington – 22,000 (in Div 4). Luton – 17,000. Notts County – 17,000 (again Div 4). In 1966 the Rovers played in 5 consecutive home games in Div 4 where each crowd was in excess of 15,000. Some of these were night matches. Clearly the club has always had the potential to draw bigger crowds than 5,000.

The post Bell Vue set-up is not comparable with the vast majority of current 3rd and 4th tier clubs. It far exceeds their facilities on every level. We are not a Hartlepool, a Brentford, a Barnet, Lincoln City, Mansfield, Bradford Park Avenue, Newport County, Southport, Workington, Rochdale, Grimsby Town, Luton, Wrexham, Hereford, Aldershot, Newport or Cambridge. All teams that once we would have been favourably compared with or even looked up to.

Doncaster Rovers off the field has grown yet right now we are barely competing on the field with clubs like Stevenage, Crawley and Milton Keynes Dons.

The Board built a Championship club. Surely John Ryan’s vision wasn’t to reach the promised land and then implode, for the club to tear itself apart? There is every justification in calling League One 2012/3 a tin pot league and I’m disappointed that you choose not to recognise this. I merely called it as I see it and cited as evidence a list of teams that recently left it behind. There is but one club in the whole Division today that compares favourably with those mentioned. The facilities at the Keepmoat and at our training ground are far superior to those of 90% of the teams in this league and the one below. Many are light years behind us. We’ve earned the right to see ourselves as a cut above. That view is not disproportionate.

Unfortunately we’ve very quickly fallen behind off the field in our ambitions. We no longer have a declared vision, there’s no clear direction and a lack of visible leadership. Without this, what is there to believe in and to support? Blind faith and hope is all fine and dandy but that isn’t what delivered a decade of growth and success.

Yes Billy, we may have traded at a level below the current one in 30 of the last 42 years but can you not recognise that is an irrelevance? Doncaster Rovers today shares only a name with the club I grew up supporting. Past failures don’t excuse the current lack of direction, it doesn’t make the current brand of football any more palatable and it doesn’t make the current League One any more or less than tin pot. It is a VERY poor league. In much worse state than when we left it last time.

You suggest League One is an excellent standard of football and I smile, for you will still remember the QPR of 1969, Graham Taylor’s Lincoln City and 3rd Division Swindon winning the League Cup. And that was against a backdrop where the top division was populated by English owned teams fielding the very best of the home nation’s footballers. Today the Premiership is a World league and it’s fair to argue that the Championship represents the old 1st Division bolstered by an influx of lesser International status players.

League One should realistically represent the old second tier at least. Where players just short of the England team plied their trade. Sadly it doesn’t. It’s tin pot and we both know it.

And to those who think anyone who criticises John Ryan is the anti-Christ, just think on. If an oil sheikh turned up tomorrow wanting to invest a few hundred million in your club you’d usher him out of the door as cheerfully as you’ve stabbed players in the back who served you so well on the rise through the leagues.

Much ado about nothing!

[silent majority]

To be honest Donnybob your statement that the club have fallen behind off the field in our ambitions is so wide of the mark. If that's your perception then either you haven't been keeping up with all the developments or we are not getting the message across.

I have a meeting later today with the IFO, the Independent Football Ombudsman, and I can guarantee that DRFC will be mentioned in that conversation as it always is. And it will be mentioned in a positive light as usual. In fairness everybody in football knows about Doncaster Rovers, and everybody talks about them very positively, even last seasons shenanigans are not mentioned, and its my conviction that the only people who feel that we've changed in some major way is DRFC supporters themselves, nobody else ever mentions it or sees us negatively, ever!

We are still admired, praised, and ultimately respected for the journey we have taken in the last 10 years, and that is still felt within the walls of the Keepmoat, that ambition is still there, its your perception that's changed.

[Colin C No.3]

Colin C

Once again, I used the word to describe the standard of the DIVISION. It was in response to DonnyBob calling it a tin pot division.

But since you raise the issue, I'd prefer to watch Rob Jones, Tommy Spurr, David Cotterill, Kyle Bennett and Ian Hume grinding out results at the top of Div 3 than watch some of the dross we've had over the years getting arseholed week in week out at the bottom of Div 4 or in the Conference.

I'm funny like that.

So would I, who wouldn't? Did I ever say I longed for 'those' days back?

The "issue I raised", if that's how you wish to interprete it, was that the standard of football in Lg1 is far worse than I anticipated it could possibly be.

And if you seemingly wish to revert to sarcasm when addressing my post (something I never have you down for), if I had to choose between your description of the standard of football in this division & DonnyBob's, I'd err towards 'tinpot' everytime. That's my opinion of the football in this DIVISION, nothing to do with our days in The Conference or the 'old' Division 4.

But then again, I'm funny like that.

[CusworthRovers]

This League is far far worse than when we were last here.

In fairness I'd rather watch a team with Spurr, Roberts G, Mills, Shack, Stock, Wellens, Copps, Sharp, Bennett.

But then again, I'm also funny like that

[The Red Baron]

TRB.

I agree that the standard in this division is lower than it was last time we were here. Not sure I agree that it is THAT much lower.

We easily forget how bloody awful we were in the early stages of the promotion season. We were regularly nullified by some very straightforward sides. Of course, we had a golden couple of months from Xmas to early-March that gave the overall season its success, but that was sandwiched between some really very poor performances. If O'Driscoll's side struggled against well organised but limited sides in 07/08 like Cheltenham, Yeovil, Brighton, Oldham, Tranmere, etc I don't see why we'd expect things to be so very different against similar quality sides this year.

On playing personnel, my take is that the current first XI is similar in quality to the 07/08 vintage in some areas. Defence (right back omitted) and up front in particular. Of course, in central midfield and in goal we are a long way short of the 07/08 side. But then again, Saunders inherited a squad in crisis, not one that had been developed over several years, and hasn't had the funds to bring in the likes of Stock, Sullivan, Wellens et al.

I was thinking about what you said and although I still maintain that the current vintage of L1 is MUCH weaker than that of 2007-08, I can think of one major tactical change that might explain it.

In 2007-08 as I recall most sides played with two out-and-out strikers. In fact, one of our greatest issue was sorting out the right forward pairing from the doomed "Heff-n-Hayter" combo, via JJ Price, Lewis Guy. Mark McCammon and Gareth Taylor to the eventual Price and Hayter pairing that appeared at Wembley.

Nowadays, under the influence of international and Premier League football, most teams play with one striker supported by a man "in the hole" and/ or wide men (who drop back into midfield when their team loses the ball). This works well enough when your lone striker is of the calibre of Van Persie, Suarez, Aguero or Drogba. When the lone man is a League One journeyman, it can result in some deadly dull fare. When you gain possession you are faced by a bank of five in midfield in front of a bank of four- hence chances are at a premium.

Eventually someone will solve this conundrum and operate with two strikers without being over-run in midfield, but until they do and managers and coaches see this as the way to go, we will have a lot of dreary stalemates with few chances created or shots on target.

You say that we are some way behind the 07-08 side in midfield and there I agree strongly. Indeed, it is because our central midfield consists (so far) of players of limited range and ambition that we are struggling to break teams down. We are also desperately short of pace. I did see some signs on Saturday that Sammy Clingan might be a solution to the first conundrum. Maybe it is also time to dip into the loan market and sign a speedy wide man, especially if Bennett is going to be absent for some time.