Premier league

[not on facebook]

Think there was only 3 or 4 players in whole Squad that have played in
A CL final

[Copps is Magic]

To deny that the percentage of foreign players playing in the English national league has no effect on the performance of the national team is short-sighted.  The relationship is complicated but it exists. Spanish players play a higher percentage of minutes in the Spanish league in comparison to English players in the English league. As do the Germans. In fact, it's the same for pretty much every league in Europe. The added difference is that England exports fewer players than most other countries which means we, in effect, have severely reduced pools of players.

This suggest, as BST says, that England just doesn't produce enough top quality players to compete. This is true to an extent but it's not the full story. The argument has also been put forward that foreign players in the premiership improve the overall quality and therefore improve the quality of English players. This argument can only hold as long as there are enough English players in there to be learning and the continuing decline to around 30% of minutes played suggest there arn't

One of the complicating factors is relative wealth and living conditions between countries. For many players from poorer European countries and non-European countries a job as a footballer in England is a lucrative livelihood strategy. The same kind of incentives are not there for English players moving abroad (and cultural factors such as living in a mono-linguistic nation doesn't help) therefore many low-to-mid level players will inevitably get cut-off from the prospect of the top level when cheaper imports are readily available. This is where the financial power of the premiership becomes a downfall - clubs are set up to cherry-pick the best of world talent and not to produce teams of native youngsters. (It also means a perverse improvement for the English national team may actually come with the rise of the MLS and the incentive for English players to move to the states).

This is a point that is often forgotten in the debate; that football is a team sport and not about producing spectacular individuals. Germany look awesome now because they have a team which all have a similar level of ability. The same for the Spanish team just gone. Our whole 'philosophy' in England (i.e. the globalised nature of the premiership) just doesn't provide any incentives to produce teams of kids like this.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The last England manager to have won an English league championship (barring Howard Wilkinson as caretaker) was Don Revie....

[not on facebook]

The last England manager to have won an English league championship (barring Howard Wilkinson as caretaker) was Don Revie....

Look at some Of the non british  managers that have landed  at our clubs
Some Of could not speak english  Ffs

[Wild Rover]

OK. How many of the French WC winning team played IN FRANCE from youth to winning WC, how many Spanish same. Or indeed the Dutch side Spanish beat.

[Belle-Vue-Ghost]

But back on topic, why the f*** doesn't Wilshire start every game. He is so technically gifted, he could be our Pirlo.

Boomstick - Is this a wind up?

I can honestly never say I've ever seen anything technical about Wilshire.  He runs around a bit, attempts a tackle (usually a late one), and every time hes tackled and hits the floor he looks as though he'll be injured for the next 6 months.

[Bentley Bullet]

The entire England squad plays in the Premier league. This means that their club team probably has better players than the England team has. What could be a major reason why the players struggle for England is that they are playing with inferior players compared to their usual playing colleagues.

[Boomstick]

OK. How many of the French WC winning team played IN FRANCE from youth to winning WC, how many Spanish same. Or indeed the Dutch side Spanish beat.

Irrelevant, they STARTED at the highest French clubs, before the premier league took the easy option and bought them.(and pushed english players to the bench or football league) Instead of cultivating english players.

[Wild Rover]

Did they?. Look again.

[DonnyNoel]

Wouldn't matter if they said all 11 starters had to be English, the same squad as are out in Brazil would remain, as they are the best English 11. ( or 23 ).

Your missing the point, in say 10 years time the team would be vastly better.
It's time to give the english lads REAL chance. aswell as promoting skill and technical ability over speed and strength.

No.....I am not missing the point. If ten years ago people were able to play more "English" in their teams, todays England would still be the same squad, as they are the best of that age .

Your mistaken, the abundance of english talent would be ALOT bigger.

No, the pond would be bigger, the fish the same.

Your wrong, the players would be a lot better. Because the emphasis on technicial ability would be greater.

Its nothing to do with playing in their teams (why do the teams have to be English btw? Why can't our young talent go abroad and learn but anyway...) its to do with how we coach at a young level. You can't do anything to affect foreign participation levels in the PL - the money dictates clubs will buy the best players and they aren't English on the whole.

However, if the best 16-19 year olds in the world were English they wouldn't be going out buying foreign players. The problem needs addressing at a younger age. Better coaching = better youngsters = less need for foreign imports. Look at the number of qualified coaches across top nations, compare this with the UK, we're way behind.

[Dare to dream!]

In the past 15 years we have reached the european u21 championship finals once and we got beat 4-0 by Germany, now look at the team line ups

Germany - Neuer, Beck, Howedes, Boateng, Boenisch, Hummels, Johnson, Castro, Khedira, Ozil, Wagner.

England - Loach, Cranie, Richards, Onuoha, Gibbs, Cattermole, Muamba, Noble, Milner, Walcott, Johnson

Neuer, Boateng, Hummels, Khedira and Ozil all started for Germany's opener against Portugal and play for top teams in Europe. Only Milner makes the squad for us and Scott Loach has just signed for Rotherham.

We are producing players who are talented but we aren't taking them to the next level like other nations do.

[Boomstick]

But back on topic, why the f*** doesn't Wilshire start every game. He is so technically gifted, he could be our Pirlo.

Boomstick - Is this a wind up?

I can honestly never say I've ever seen anything technical about Wilshire.  He runs around a bit, attempts a tackle (usually a late one), and every time hes tackled and hits the floor he looks as though he'll be injured for the next 6 months.

He's not a tackler - granted. But neither is alonso, Pirlo or zidane. his game is picking out defence splitting passes.
You looking for the wrong qualities in players, and this is the same up and down the country, right down to grass roots.

I are this all the time with my kids teams, the bigger and stronger kids are getting picked over the better technically gifted players.

[Boomstick]

A case in point is jay Emmanuel Thomas, very technically gifted but hasn't been nurtured.
He is lazy with a poor work rate and attitude, if he was nurtured properly, and he KNEW he would be given a proper chance - he would be a hell of a lot better player. And be I'm the premier league. 
But instead you have arsenal buying players like carzola, who isn't any better technically but has the work rate and attitude to make it at the top level. But most important - he was given the chance

[not on facebook]

Best english player over the years to have built a team round would have
Been GLEN hoddle ,as he was out Of This world .

But the national team management could not see that along with the fans and media i guess as we all went for blood and thunder type Of players ,hence hoddle was never first name on team sheet.

So When we do have the tools management still have fcuked it up

[Bristol Red Rover]

I don't think it's the lack of talent but the coaching that is the problem. I think the style of English football worked well with heavy leather balls and muddy pitches.

What little I've exerienced of coaches in English football, I'm not impressed. I'm sure there are a few gems in there but the basic way they work is leaden and a few handles short of a cup. That's partly to do with who it is that become coaches and with the FA directives which are as dim as the FA in general.

The FA are  just collecting dust as they meander around in a brandy soaked stupor. My suggestion would be to cull them, and pay people who are capable of doing the job properly.

[RedJ]

It doesn't help that (I'm sure I've read) our coaching courses are among the most expensive in Europe.

[Dare to dream!]

It doesn't help that (I'm sure I've read) our coaching courses are among the most expensive in Europe.

Im sure i saw something saying its the equivalent of £200 in Spain whereas here its comething like £1500 here

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boomstick

Liverpool are awash with England "stars". The England team last night included Gerrard, Johnson, Henderson, Sterling, Sturridge plus Lambert and Lallana. They are the very model of what you'd like to see.

Did any of those players look like anything better than first round group fodder last night?

And in the meantime, if you "weaken the Premier League initially", where do you think the money is going to come from?

Liverpool are a shining example, if every club did the same. Then England WOULD do better at the World Cup.

Aye. We could have a team full of Gerrards, Johnsons and Hendersons.

I'm wetting my kecks in anticipation.

[Bentley Bullet]

The truth about last night is that England were better than Uraguay, but Uraguay had Suarez.

[Orlandokarla]

But instead you have arsenal buying players like carzola, who isn't any better technically but has the work rate and attitude to make it at the top level. But most important - he was given the chance

Yeah, that Arsene Wenger, never one to give young players a chance. 

Are you talking about the same Cazorla who won Euro 2008 and Euro 2012 with Spain, only missing the World Cup win due to surgery, and has gained more than 60 caps in inarguably one of the most competitive squads in the history of international football? The same Cazorla who once made the top 10 best players in the world list? Former Spanish footballer of the year Cazorla? The same Cazorla who is so comfortable with either foot that he isn't entirely sure which foot he is better with? Made PL team of the season in his first season?

JET is as good technically??? JET is technically good enough to playing alongside özil, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas etc? 

I'm not having a go; your comments just blew my mind.

As far as man management goes, JET has seen it all; he has been nurtured like a baby at Arsenal, and left to sink or swim elsewhere, to varying degrees. He has failed to apply himself wherever he has been. He has had enough chances to fulfil his undoubted talent, but he clearly can't be arsed. Lazy in training I can understand, but lazy on the pitch? I've never been able to comprehend how somebody can't be arsed to run themselves into the ground for 90 minutes, for the kind of money on offer.

[pib]

In the past 15 years we have reached the european u21 championship finals once and we got beat 4-0 by Germany, now look at the team line ups

Germany - Neuer, Beck, Howedes, Boateng, Boenisch, Hummels, Johnson, Castro, Khedira, Ozil, Wagner.

England - Loach, Cranie, Richards, Onuoha, Gibbs, Cattermole, Muamba, Noble, Milner, Walcott, Johnson

Neuer, Boateng, Hummels, Khedira and Ozil all started for Germany's opener against Portugal and play for top teams in Europe. Only Milner makes the squad for us and Scott Loach has just signed for Rotherham.

We are producing players who are talented but we aren't taking them to the next level like other nations do.

Or maybe whoever picks the U21 side doesn't have a very good eye for the players with potential?

[Boomstick]

But instead you have arsenal buying players like carzola, who isn't any better technically but has the work rate and attitude to make it at the top level. But most important - he was given the chance

Yeah, that Arsene Wenger, never one to give young players a chance. 

Are you talking about the same Cazorla who won Euro 2008 and Euro 2012 with Spain, only missing the World Cup win due to surgery, and has gained more than 60 caps in inarguably one of the most competitive squads in the history of international football? The same Cazorla who once made the top 10 best players in the world list? Former Spanish footballer of the year Cazorla? The same Cazorla who is so comfortable with either foot that he isn't entirely sure which foot he is better with? Made PL team of the season in his first season?

JET is as good technically??? JET is technically good enough to playing alongside özil, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas etc? 

I'm not having a go; your comments just blew my mind.

As far as man management goes, JET has seen it all; he has been nurtured like a baby at Arsenal, and left to sink or swim elsewhere, to varying degrees. He has failed to apply himself wherever he has been. He has had enough chances to fulfil his undoubted talent, but he clearly can't be arsed. Lazy in training I can understand, but lazy on the pitch? I've never been able to comprehend how somebody can't be arsed to run themselves into the ground for 90 minutes, for the kind of money on offer.

Hahaha! Don't read too much into that example I gave you muppet!
It was just off the top of my head. Not the best example I could have given.

But I maintain carzola has no more technical ability than JET. - fact.

Jack wilshire is England's best technically gifted player, why isn't he starting every game? he's head and shoulders above that slogger Gerard.

Why has Wellens never given a chance in the premier? Because strength and pace are wrongly valued more than technical finess.
If I had the choice of Wellens or Gerard, I'd pick Wellens all day as the more gifted footballer.

[Boomstick]

Boomstick

Liverpool are awash with England "stars". The England team last night included Gerrard, Johnson, Henderson, Sterling, Sturridge plus Lambert and Lallana. They are the very model of what you'd like to see.

Did any of those players look like anything better than first round group fodder last night?

And in the meantime, if you "weaken the Premier League initially", where do you think the money is going to come from?

Liverpool are a shining example, if every club did the same. Then England WOULD do better at the World Cup.

Aye. We could have a team full of Gerrards, Johnsons and Hendersons.

I'm wetting my kecks in anticipation.

No, England would have more choice, with a bigger pool of better players to choose from. We wouldn't have to pick dog shit players like jagielka, Gerard etc.

[Boomstick]

If Pirlo was English, he'd be in league 1, and that is a sad fact of football ethos in England

[Orlandokarla]

The truth about last night is that England were better than Uraguay, but Uraguay had Suarez.

... And Cavani. 2 WC strikers England can only dream of having the likes of.

[Orlandokarla]

But instead you have arsenal buying players like carzola, who isn't any better technically but has the work rate and attitude to make it at the top level. But most important - he was given the chance

Yeah, that Arsene Wenger, never one to give young players a chance. 

Are you talking about the same Cazorla who won Euro 2008 and Euro 2012 with Spain, only missing the World Cup win due to surgery, and has gained more than 60 caps in inarguably one of the most competitive squads in the history of international football? The same Cazorla who once made the top 10 best players in the world list? Former Spanish footballer of the year Cazorla? The same Cazorla who is so comfortable with either foot that he isn't entirely sure which foot he is better with? Made PL team of the season in his first season?

JET is as good technically??? JET is technically good enough to playing alongside özil, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas etc? 

I'm not having a go; your comments just blew my mind.

As far as man management goes, JET has seen it all; he has been nurtured like a baby at Arsenal, and left to sink or swim elsewhere, to varying degrees. He has failed to apply himself wherever he has been. He has had enough chances to fulfil his undoubted talent, but he clearly can't be arsed. Lazy in training I can understand, but lazy on the pitch? I've never been able to comprehend how somebody can't be arsed to run themselves into the ground for 90 minutes, for the kind of money on offer.

Hahaha! Don't read too much into that example I gave you muppet!
It was just off the top of my head. Not the best example I could have given.

But I maintain carzola has no more technical ability than JET. - fact.

Jack wilshire is England's best technically gifted player, why isn't he starting every game? he's head and shoulders above that slogger Gerard.

Why has Wellens never given a chance in the premier? Because strength and pace are wrongly valued more than technical finess.
If I had the choice of Wellens or Gerard, I'd pick Wellens all day as the more gifted footballer.

Ridiculously comparing JET to Santi Cazorla gives me just cause to call you worse than a muppet.
It's hardly my fault if you back up your point with piss-weak examples.
You can state "fact" all you like, but to suggest that JET has the ability to amass 60+ caps for the Spanish team of the last 6-8 years, or be player of the year in any major league is absolutely mental.

Of course Wilshere is far better than Gerrard, but he's only had what, 30 minutes of competitive football (if that) since a lengthy injury. Like the last half a dozen managers, Roy can't give up on his old guard until they finally embarrass themselves, or retire with dignity intact.

Wellens looks better because he isn't up against the same class of player. I played in a local league over here for a few years, despite my legs having gone years ago, and at a slower pace, and given space and time on the ball, I was like Dennis bloody Bergkamp!
Quality of opposition is EVERYTHING.

Did Gerrard ever have pace? Scholes? Lampard? Stamina perhaps, but that's mostly down to conditioning.

[Glyn_Wigley]

JET - the man so technically gifted that he is the only player I've ever seen jump to head the ball and bottle it and duck out of it so much that the ball went over his head and back and hit him on the arse. Comedy gold.

[NickDRFC]

Haha JET more technically gifted than Cazorla, what a load of b*llocks! He is/was an effective player more because of his lack of technique and you never knew which way the ball was going to bounce off him when he ran with it!

In my eyes Coppinger is a far more technically accomplished player than JET. I can't call it fact, but I'm pretty sure most who've seen both play for Rovers would agree with me. I'm also sure all in their right mind would agree that Santi Cazorla is some way above the pair of them combined

[Milepostuk]

I think you need to look at the youth squads, and making potential england players play at every level for england, not just dump them into the 1st team after one year in the under-21s. That would be as good a place to start as any...

I agree 100% with this. At least they may get into the habit of winning at International level and, build a bond with the other lads they grow up with.

[bfdoncaster west]

wot player wood you buy for doncaster