I wonder who this could be?

[Askern_reds]

but if a individual dosent no he or she isn't breaking the law?

[Lipsy]

I don't care how much makeup or how "mature" a 15-year-old might look or act, a 27-year-old man knows when he's talking to a minor (or someone in and around that age). If he was 18 or 19, then it might be different (though not legally) as - theoretically - she might actually be a bit more mature than him, but not when there's a 12 year difference...

I also think that it's about time nightclubs and bars got properly stung for letting in minors as well, especially when an offence has been committed. That may not be the case here, but there's been a few things knocking about on Twitter that seem to suggest it might have been.

[Askern_reds]

Lypsy I don't no you from Adam? I chalenge you to walk round donny on a weekend and you point out under age girls by looking or chatting? bet you don't pick 1, and as for slamming the pubs n clubs? They all got door men and women on and they can't spot them and are they not trained?

[Lipsy]

Askern Red, I reckon an 18, mebbe a 21-year-old might be conned into thinking a 15-year-old might be older, but definitely not a 27 year-old. Nope, I can't see it. There was - briefly - an image doing the rounds on Twitter that was supposed to be the girl and - again - no (assuming it was her).

Even so, bars could and should do better - they have a duty to protect their patrons (works well enough in my local, though I appreciate the number of people frequenting it are lower than any club) and also to ensure minors don't frequent them. No ifs or buts. Likewise (and I say this as a father of a daughter), so too should parents. Assuming this complaint has come from the child's family then they too should get a mighty slap for not honoring their obligation to care for and protect a minor - IF this girl has been out clubbing.

Again, IF this is one of those 'picked up a girl at a club' things, then everything has failed: the footballer, the club and her parents. If any one of those three acts appropriately then this could never have happened.

[streatham dave]

A woman who is 27 with a 15 year old boy is committing sexual assault even if he 'consents' and will because of the age gap get charged. A man doing the same thing is charged with rape which tends to get a longer sentence. Someone under the age of consent can not legally consent. The law as it stands is an ass. A woman can not be charged with rape as the law states it is penetration with a penis. The victims penis is penetrating her but he himself is not being penetrated by one. In the case of a woman doing this to a boy it is still not rape even if drugs or a weapon is used, still sexual assault. I think in theory a woman can legally commit rape if she is responsible acting with a man against a boy. As has already been said not knowing is legally not an excuse although might be taken into consideration re sentencing. One final thought from me on this delicate subject is that I know of a case of a 15 year old girl who had sex with a teenage boy (not sure age) over 16. Police became aware but did not want to know. I'd imagine that some would say let them get on with it if age is close and I might agree but for two factors 1) It makes a mockery of the law that the police are meant to enforce  2) It muddies the waters of what is acceptable and what is not.

[Askern_reds]

why should a 27year old spot a under age girl more than a 21 year old? Don't get that what so ever, your local in a village I Dont no if so bet you only no because chances are everybody knows each other's family's? what more can a club or wine bar do than put door persons on? only solution for me is if a girl lies about her age sexually active? and if so a detailed background of her activities should be sought and how old her past lads or men were? and if this is the case the girl should be charged with entrapment if there is such a law and if there isn't then there should be, and never mind nameing and shameing the man the girl should be treated the same as the man

[Lipsy]

We no longer sell cigs to 16-year-olds (though I am sure it still happens in some shite holes) - that changed over the years because the punishments for doing it got heftier. Same applies here. If a club or bouncer faced a heavy kicking for getting it wrong, it wouldn't happen (or it would happen A LOT less). Simple.

[Askern_reds]

a club or bar protects itself by employing people to do a job so they doing there best, a door person makes a mistake? showme someone who's never made a mistake I'll show you a liar? it's the person who's trying to flaunt the law that's at fault no one else's

[Lipsy]

Okay, I am saying that the difference in a 15-year-old and a 27-year-old is so vast that a grown man should be able to spot when he's talking to a schoolgirl.

As for making a mistake? Do me a favour. Two forms of ID (both with a picture) and the bouncer(s) and club fearful of massive fines/loss of job would fix it. It's not even difficult to fix. Make someone scared of losing their job or business and it would be fixed. You and I both know that clubs turn a blind eye if someone looks "close enough". You're effectively saying that people make mistakes and that's okay. It's not. We have a culture of not giving a fig about people and that - I think - can be changed... Otherwise we all just shrug our shoulders and accept that these things just happen.

[CrippyCooke]

Lypsy I don't no you from Adam? I chalenge you to walk round donny on a weekend and you point out under age girls by looking or chatting? bet you don't pick 1, and as for slamming the pubs n clubs? They all got door men and women on and they can't spot them and are they not trained?

I'm 22 and I guarantee I could spot them. As could anyone else with anything about them.

[Askern_reds]

Lypsy there people walking round with fake passports never mind ids, and for Mr cook you must be one in a million all the police and trained door persons on our streets in towns and city's can never identify under age persons yet u can? Don't no what job u got but think you better of at mi5

[idler]

Lypsy I don't no you from Adam? I chalenge you to walk round donny on a weekend and you point out under age girls by looking or chatting? bet you don't pick 1, and as for slamming the pubs n clubs? They all got door men and women on and they can't spot them and are they not trained?

I'm 22 and I guarantee I could spot them. As could anyone else with anything about them.

I'm sure that after talking to a young girl for five minutes anybody with any sense would be able to work her age out somewhere near.

[Askern_reds]

idler sorry mate you in a club a bar can you honestly say you could I no I don't no you so I'm not trying to juge in anyway but could you I no wouldn't be able to tell my brothers had a bar and he use to struggle

[idler]

Ask the right questions in a roundabout way and you soon have a very good idea.

[Askern_reds]

well it's all up for debate idler, we don't no all the story yet but if he does no her age or forced her because that asnt been mentioned yet then heel get what he deserves and rightly so,

[Lipsy]

Well I saw a couple of things on Twitter that looked quite worrying re: all of this. But I'm not going to throw any of it into the mix right now, because Twitter is full of shite at times.

Bottom line (regardless of the specifics relating to the OP): We can - and should - do better than we're doing. Kids can be prevented from getting into clubs and people don't have to leave clubs so inebriated that they don't know what they're doing. WE JUST CAN.

[Askern_reds]

not saying different  lipsy it's hard work for the people in charge to enforce the law, and more must be done by both sides, ie parents for one, any one remember cloughys  quote on hooligans ?

[IDM]

It still doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is on this case, LEGALLY a 15 year old girl OR boy CANNOT consent to sexual intercourse.

End of.

As for the particular case, the hows and whys and wherefores are only speculation until such time as evidence is given in court, statements taken etc.

[Scooter]

as I pointed out earlier scooter did he no she was 15?

I take your point but why at 27 would you be getting in that situation with someone who is clearly 15/16/17?

[Scooter]

It's a moral issue of where you set the age of consent. I believe labour wanted to lower it a few years back.

The point I am making, is that once you set the rules, and pretty much every modern society in existence does so, you have to stick by them. That is where Adam Johnson has potentially dun f***ed up.

And I'm saying that the chances are that he's no more a 'nonce' than a person drinking alcohol at 17 years old is an alcoholic.

A 17 year old tries alcohol once - not an alcoholic
A 17 year old has sex with a 15 year old once - a sex offender

You can't compare them

[bally1950]

And in all of this "What about the duties of the parents"? They are bound by the Law and Morals to ensure the safety of a child and should spot the danger signs or the smell of any drink. If they do nothing then they should, if the girl does not conform though?. Parental Responsibility comes very much into it.

When I was a Policeman and based at Thorne I came across a job where a 14 years old girl at Dunsville Y.C. Drunk. On taking her back to her mother (who had been a celebrity in 60/70s) to read the Riot Act, I was met with "I gave her a couple of glasses before she went out".

Nothing changes - He stands accused, if he has done it then he is a gonner. Nothing has changed but remember lads. "If she says No, then it is No. and if you have any doubts then you must say "No" because 30 minutes of fun can lead to a lifetime of misery for a lot of people". I too have dealt with Rape of women of all ages.  Do not get me wrong but Male and Female are still primitives in many ways
 

[Filo]

And in all of this "What about the duties of the parents"? They are bound by the Law and Morals to ensure the safety of a child and should spot the danger signs or the smell of any drink. If they do nothing then they should, if the girl does not conform though?. Parental Responsibility comes very much into it.

When I was a Policeman and based at Thorne I came across a job where a 14 years old girl at Dunsville Y.C. Drunk. On taking her back to her mother (who had been a celebrity in 60/70s) to read the Riot Act, I was met with "I gave her a couple of glasses before she went out".

Nothing changes - He stands accused, if he has done it then he is a gonner. Nothing has changed but remember lads. "If she says No, then it is No. and if you have any doubts then you must say "No" because 30 minutes of fun can lead to a lifetime of misery for a lot of people". I too have dealt with Rape of women of all ages.  Do not get me wrong but Male and Female are still primitives in many ways
 

Based at Thorne?

I bet you know an ex policeman based at Thorne that supports Derby

[bally1950]

Oh Yes I do, he was my Probationer. He  was at my house a few weeks ago and I see him lots. Always been a good mate, I actually helped him move here and on a very snowy day drove the van to move his stuff from Derby. He did not tell me that he lived at the bottom of a hill.  He still has a season ticket with The Rams too. Great lad, he is one of the best.

[Filo]

Oh Yes I do, he was my Probationer. He  was at my house a few weeks ago and I see him lots. Always been a good mate, I actually helped him move here and on a very snowy day drove the van to move his stuff from Derby. He did not tell me that he lived at the bottom of a hill.  He still has a season ticket with The Rams too. Great lad, he is one of the best.

Does a bit of taxi driving with me

[bally1950]

Yes, that he does but although I had worked out your occupation in the past I did not realise it was so local. I may see him tomorrow as there is a meeting sadly at St Lawrences of many of us that worked at Thorne.  He has many tails to tell of Bally. 

[acko]

young girls have an amazing ability to be like cameleons,can dress and act to suit the situation they want,can look like little innocents one minute,and can change to be like lolitas the next.dont know the full details of this case yet so I am not condoning or condemning,but you can be sure of one thing if it gets to court the prosecuting solicitor will have her dress like a little angel,another point of interest announced this morning teachers,social workers and councillors   are to be held responsible for girls behaviour regarding sexual explortation as in Rotherham but surely the parents are as much responsible if they don't know what their girls are upto

[BobG]

You and Askern are like scatter guns Acko. Stick to one, or at most two points. This constant dragging of red herrings into a debate does you no favours at all. All it does do is underline the weakness of your original point as you are constantly having to drag new ideas in to buttress something that is already falling down.

BobG

[Filo]

Yes, that he does but although I had worked out your occupation in the past I did not realise it was so local. I may see him tomorrow as there is a meeting sadly at St Lawrences of many of us that worked at Thorne.  He has many tails to tell of Bally. 

He liked Policeing at the football and was on duty at Hillsborough he tells me, although not in the ground

[acko]

the point I was making bob was that some young girls are not always what they seem,and parential control as gone out of the window its not always fair to blame teachers etc

[BobG]

Whilst I don't disagree if you limit it to how someone looks, I do disagree when you take into account having a conversation with these youngsters. I assume people do still have a conversation before jumping into bed? 5 minutes chat would show their age very easily. And anyway, Acko, it's very counter cultural these days to suggest some girls may fall victim to predators encouraged by how they present themselves.

BobG