Hillsborough inquests:

[the vicar]

Fans unlawfully killed, jury concludes: thank god for that JUSTICE AT LAST

[Avsuptem]

Here here.

[wing commander]

   it's a very emotive subject isn't it....I cant help feeling this conclusion was nailed on though whatever the thousands of pages of evidence that were produced suggested..The authorities wanted this to go away,it has dragged on for so long and cost so much money..Of course they will now look at prosecutions but the people involved will now be elderly and retired which I don't agree with......
    Sometimes in life bad things happen,disasters occur that we have to learn from to make sure they don't happen again,its very easy to look back and say he should have done this etc etc but times were so different then...  so I do have sympathy for all sides in this issue...

[Red wizard]

Hindsight, best tool in the box.

[Hitchin Exile]

Same old scousers never their fault.
Try telling that to th Juventus fans at  the Heysel Stadium

[normal rules]

IT is interesting that the blame had been laid fairly and squarely with the police, the engineering consultants who designed the ground, swfc and even south Yorks ambulance for their perceived lack of response on the day.
Yet the supporters that day have been found to have played no part in the events that unfolded.
This single fact for me undermines the whole inquest.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hitchin

Might have escaped your attention but it isn't Liverpool fans saying Liverpool fans were not responsible for Hillsborough. It is the British state saying it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

IT is interesting that the blame had been laid fairly and squarely with the police, the engineering consultants who designed the ground, swfc and even south Yorks ambulance for their perceived lack of response on the day.
Yet the supporters that day have been found to have played no part in the events that unfolded.
This single fact for me undermines the whole inquest.

Why? Do you know something that wasn't put before the jury during the past two years that they should have been made aware of?

[the vicar]

Same old scousers never their fault.
Try telling that to th Juventus fans at  the Heysel Stadium

I agree with that in part, but how would we feel if it was your or our family members, put your self in there position then tell it again

[normal rules]

Glyn Wigley. Did you ever attend football matches in the eighties, in particular with any of the big clubs like Liverpool, Man U or Leeds?

[normal rules]

There have been two inquests, one decided accidental deaths and now this one deciding unlawful killing.
I suspect the actual truth is somewhere in the middle.
Those with which the blame has been laid are all culpable in differing measures. To exconerate Liverpool supporters of ANY involvement in the events on that sad day, is, in my opinion, bewildering.

[the vicar]

you can blame them if they where drunk out side the ground but if they had not opened the gated then it would not of happened, so it is the authority's fault for doing just that and nor cordoning of the sectioins

[normal rules]

Anyhow, justice for the 96 will no doubt now morph into compo for the 96. I wonder how much syp third party liability runs into?

Criminal charges for David duckenfield? They won't be happy until he is incarcerated and the key thrown away too I suspect.

I've heard today that some are calling for the resignation of the current chief constable of syp.

This will go on and on and on and on.

It was of course a very very sad day for everybody.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn Wigley. Did you ever attend football matches in the eighties, in particular with any of the big clubs like Liverpool, Man U or Leeds?

How does whether I did or not change ANYTHING about the evidence that the jury have spent two years looking at and then deliberating upon?

Are you saying that if the members of the jury didn't attend the football matches you're referring to then their opinion of the evidence is irrelevant and their verdict is worthless? Because that's what you're implying.

[acko]

After the furore has settled and normality resumes steps will be taken to try and ensure this never happens again,i wonder how the liverpools,man unts and the other clubs with big support would react if the police and ambulance services say they cant offer the policing and emergency ambulance services to the crowds expected,so the clubs are told to restrict there gates accordingly instead of 60k only 30k.

[Glyn_Wigley]

As for Duckenfield, I get the impression that he was either incompetent or overwhelmed by the events of the day. That's not to say he wasn't responsible, he was, but wasn't the right person to be in charge.

I'd place much more guilt on (and actively pursue criminal cases against) those who deliberately conspired to and did pervert the course of justice - because they did know EXACTLY what they were doing and why they were doing it.

[acko]

To whome are you implying glynn

[wilts rover]

After the furore has settled and normality resumes steps will be taken to try and ensure this never happens again,i wonder how the liverpools,man unts and the other clubs with big support would react if the police and ambulance services say they cant offer the policing and emergency ambulance services to the crowds expected,so the clubs are told to restrict there gates accordingly instead of 60k only 30k.

No chance of that Acko, the police get a lot of money from attending football matches, they are certainly not going to give that up. I believe the ambulance services are St John's - which again will be charged.

Major steps were taken to stop it happening again - the foremost of which was the introduction of all seater stadiums. The merits and safety of which have been debated on here several times.

[normal rules]

Glyn Wigley. Did you ever attend football matches in the eighties, in particular with any of the big clubs like Liverpool, Man U or Leeds?

How does whether I did or not change ANYTHING about the evidence that the jury have spent two years looking at and then deliberating upon?

Are you saying that if the members of the jury didn't attend the football matches you're referring to then their opinion of the evidence is irrelevant and their verdict is worthless? Because that's what you're implying.

I'm not privy to the evidence as presented. I hope it becomes available for all to see. What I will say is that during the eighties there was a culture, especially by supporters of big clubs of jibbing. Jibbing was a term used by those who attended big football matches to gain entry without a ticket. I experienced this first hand during the eighties going to matches with my mates watching teams like Leeds, Man U and Liverpool. It was rife. I'd love to know how many Liverpool supporters were in hillsborough that day compared with the safe capacity of the ground. I suspect this key information will never be known.
Yes, I whole heartedly agree the policing was catastrophic, and that part of the ground was not fit for purpose and the tunnel gate should have been shut, but there were other factors in play that day that seem to have been disregarded.

Let's not forget too that the jury was just nine and on the key vote, it was only 7-2.  A majority, yes, but not fully conclusive?

[silent majority]

There have been two inquests, one decided accidental deaths and now this one deciding unlawful killing.
I suspect the actual truth is somewhere in the middle.
Those with which the blame has been laid are all culpable in differing measures. To exconerate Liverpool supporters of ANY involvement in the events on that sad day, is, in my opinion, bewildering.

The Taylor Report also blamed the Police for 'losing control' and exonerated the Liverpool supporters. How many more reports have to be done before people realise that the Liverpool fans are being judged on reputation rather than the facts of the day?

If you wish to read a very comprehensive account of what happened and when then go no further than this by David Conn;

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=share_btn_tw

[Sprotyrover]

There are a few issues that wrankle me.Firstly heart felt simpathy for the 96 innocents who were killed and also for the families,
As for the 2,000 or so Morons that turned up at leppings lane without tickets and fully intent on rushing the Gates to get in,their behaviour was abhorrent, how they get off Scott free is bewildering.
Next you have the Cowboys in the SYP senior command team who thought it would be a nice little tick in the book for Duckenfields career and advancement into the ranks of ACCPO.
How wrong they were to put their fate into the hands of a man who was regarded by the rank and file as a buffoon long before Hillsborough ever happened,maybe he was in the right Lodge or something.
What happened next needs to be heavily scrutinised,instead of throwing themselves on their swords the senior command team looked for scapegoats and decided that they were clever enough to dig their way out of trouble by throwing a lot of Muck about.
Clearly they weren't and I hope that some of them are brought to book.

What I don't want to see is the rate payers of South Yorkshire having to foot a very hefty bill to pay for something which had nothing to do with them.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn Wigley. Did you ever attend football matches in the eighties, in particular with any of the big clubs like Liverpool, Man U or Leeds?

How does whether I did or not change ANYTHING about the evidence that the jury have spent two years looking at and then deliberating upon?

Are you saying that if the members of the jury didn't attend the football matches you're referring to then their opinion of the evidence is irrelevant and their verdict is worthless? Because that's what you're implying.

I'm not privy to the evidence as presented. I hope it becomes available for all to see. What I will say is that during the eighties there was a culture, especially by supporters of big clubs of jibbing. Jibbing was a term used by those who attended big football matches to gain entry without a ticket. I experienced this first hand during the eighties going to matches with my mates watching teams like Leeds, Man U and Liverpool. It was rife. I'd love to know how many Liverpool supporters were in hillsborough that day compared with the safe capacity of the ground. I suspect this key information will never be known.
Yes, I whole heartedly agree the policing was catastrophic, and that part of the ground was not fit for purpose and the tunnel gate should have been shut, but there were other factors in play that day that seem to have been disregarded.

Let's not forget too that the jury was just nine and on the key vote, it was only 7-2.  A majority, yes, but not fully conclusive?

I'm just going to repost something SM posted in another thread about 'ticketless fans' earlier today. Something I didn't know about and I suspect you don't either.

And further to that the CCTV used a head-counting system to see how many fans were in and around Leppings Lane at the time. They compared that to how many tickets had been sold and there was no significant difference meaning the stories about hundreds of ticket less Liverpool fans was untrue.

Most hadn't even been near a pub either as severe traffic problems between Liverpool and Sheffield meant the bulk of fans were turning up later than normal. Another major reason for delaying the kick off.

[Glyn_Wigley]

As for the 2,000 or so Morons that turned up at leppings lane without tickets and fully intent on rushing the Gates to get in,their behaviour was abhorrent, how they get off Scott free is bewildering.

Where's this spurious '2000' figure come from? Where's the evidence of anyone 'rushing the gates'?

Could it possibly have come from:

the senior command team looked for scapegoats and decided that they were clever enough to dig their way out of trouble by throwing a lot of Muck about.

[bpoolrover]

To be fair they did rush the gates,there are enough videos showing that,but it comes down to whoever is in charge to control that

[BillyStubbsTears]

I am frankly appalled by some of the ignorance being demonstrated on here.

The evidence has all been laid out and pored over at the Coroner's Court. Every single day, there were detailed reports of the evidence set out on line.

ANYONE can go and check that evidence. I did on a daily basis because I had a particular professional and historical interest in the Hillsborough disaster.

People on here are repeating 1/4 century old lies and half truths which have been shown to be groundless at the inquest.

The bleeding Internet exists for this purpose. Rise above your bloody prejudices and go and look at the facts that are out there.

[normal rules]

Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen. I was there the year before in 1988 when Forest Played Liverpool in an identical fixture and i stood on the Lepping Lane Terrace with my mate. It was terrifying.

This makes interesting reading:

Hillsborough was a regular venue for FA Cup semi-finals in the 1980s, hosting five matches. A crush occurred at the Leppings Lane end of the ground during the 1981 semi-final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers after hundreds more spectators were permitted to enter the terrace than could safely be accommodated, resulting in 38 injuries, including broken arms, legs and ribs.[11] Police believed there had been a real chance of fatalities had swift action not been taken, and recommended the club reduce its capacity. In a post-match briefing to discuss the incident, Sheffield Wednesday chairman Bert McGee remarked: "b*llocks—no one would have been killed".[12][13] The incident nonetheless prompted Sheffield Wednesday to alter the layout at the Leppings Lane end, dividing the terrace into three separate pens to restrict sideways movement. The terrace was divided into five pens when the club was promoted to the First Division in 1984 and a crush barrier near the access tunnel was removed in 1986 to improve the flow of fans entering and exiting the central enclosure. Its capacity remained unaltered and the safety certificate was not updated. After the crush in 1981, Hillsborough was not chosen to host an FA Cup semi-final for six years until 1987.

Serious overcrowding was observed at the 1987 quarter-final between Sheffield Wednesday and Coventry City[14] and again during the semi-final between Coventry City and Leeds United at Hillsborough.[15] A Leeds fan described disorganisation at the turnstiles and no steward or police direction inside the stadium, resulting in the crowd in one enclosure becoming so compressed he was at times unable to raise and clap his hands. Other accounts told of fans having to be pulled to safety from above.

Liverpool and Nottingham Forest met in the semi-final at Hillsborough in 1988, and fans reported crushing at the Leppings Lane end. Liverpool lodged a complaint before the match in 1989. One supporter wrote to the Football Association and Minister for Sport complaining, "The whole area was packed solid to the point where it was impossible to move and where I, and others around me, felt considerable concern for personal safety".[16] After changes to the ground's layout in 1981, its safety certificate became invalid and was not renewed. At the time of the disaster, the ground had no safety certificate (source: wikipedia)

[silent majority]

To be fair they did rush the gates,there are enough videos showing that,but it comes down to whoever is in charge to control that

They didn't rush the gates, it was as described here;

Supt Roger Marshall, put in charge outside, was new to the role. In his evidence, he accepted the police had no plan to filter people’s entry into the Leppings Lane bottleneck, using police horses or cordons, beyond “some random ticket checking and … some checks for drunkenness”. Repeatedly played footage of the mass congestion that developed, Marshall admitted that it was a problem starting at 2.15pm, with thousands more people still arriving, and by 2.35pm, police had “completely lost control”.

[Sprotyrover]

Them little 'Saintly' Liverpool fans had done the same thing at a match about 2 months prior and got away with it because the Police Commander 'Buckled' under pressure, SYP had received intelligence from Merseyside Police football intelligence 3 days prior to e match informing them this was going to happen That a ticketless contingent was expected to turn up and they did nothing about it.they had over 1100 Bobbies at their disposal, a cordon of several hundred could have easily have been deployed to prevent the mob getting anywhere near the gates.

[normal rules]

As is common at domestic matches in England, opposing supporters were segregated. Nottingham Forest supporters were allocated the South and East ends (Spion Kop) with a combined capacity of 29,800, reached by 60 turnstiles spaced along two sides of the ground. Liverpool supporters were allocated the North and West ends (Leppings Lane), holding 24,256 fans. (notice the big issue here?)

[DonnyBazR0ver]

As inferred above, there was previous at Hillsborough. I was there for a league cup semi between Sheff Wed and Liverpool. I was on the leppings lane end. It was scary.

The authorities were ill prepared. The ground wasn't prepared. Decisions on the day exacerbated these issues and decisions since conspired to deflect responsibility.

Even then, every human being had a right to expect to be reasonably safe when attending a high profile showcase football match.