Hillsborough inquests:

[Sprotyrover]

Just read SM's post,Roger Marshall was spot on, SYP had been expecting another walk in the Park as per the previous year,they did not think that the predicted Gate Rush was going to occur and just weren't prepared for it.

[Sprotyrover]

Any poster on here who went to Everton with Rovers Circa 1985 will know how bad grounds were back then when it came to overcrowding,
Once I got in behind the goal area I was stuck there, could barely breathe let alone move.

[turnbull for england]

As inferred above, there was previous at Hillsborough. I was there for a league cup semi between Sheff Wed and Liverpool. I was on the leppings lane end. It was scary.

The authorities were ill prepared. The ground wasn't prepared. Decisions on the day exacerbated these issues and decisions since conspired to deflect responsibility.

Even then, every human being had a right to expect to be reasonably safe when attending a high profile showcase football match.

I was at wednesday manu in a league game 88/99 season and clearly remember man utd fans being lifted up into the top tier and people spilling out

[Bentley Bullet]

I was at Goodison Park that day. I had the air squeezed out of me when leaving the stadium at the end, when a police horse crushed me against a wall, and rolled me round until it had passed.

It made me thankful that we weren't a big club playing with big crowds every week.

[the vicar]

There are a few issues that wrankle me.Firstly heart felt simpathy for the 96 innocents who were killed and also for the families,
As for the 2,000 or so Morons that turned up at leppings lane without tickets and fully intent on rushing the Gates to get in,their behaviour was abhorrent, how they get off Scott free is bewildering.
Next you have the Cowboys in the SYP senior command team who thought it would be a nice little tick in the book for Duckenfields career and advancement into the ranks of ACCPO.
How wrong they were to put their fate into the hands of a man who was regarded by the rank and file as a buffoon long before Hillsborough ever happened,maybe he was in the right Lodge or something.
What happened next needs to be heavily scrutinised,instead of throwing themselves on their swords the senior command team looked for scapegoats and decided that they were clever enough to dig their way out of trouble by throwing a lot of Muck about.
Clearly they weren't and I hope that some of them are brought to book.

What I don't want to see is the rate payers of South Yorkshire having to foot a very hefty bill to pay for something which had nothing to do with them.

if you saw calender tonight a police inspector said they was told to blame ticket less fans and he said there was none of them

[silent majority]

Just read SM's post,Roger Marshall was spot on, SYP had been expecting another walk in the Park as per the previous year,they did not think that the predicted Gate Rush was going to occur and just weren't prepared for it.

I think the change of Chief Superintendent leading up to the game was crucial. Taking out an experienced officer and replacing him with one who had never done a game of football was a major mistake.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Yes, Everton was also scary. I know others did the same as me and climb up on to the girder at the back to avoid being crushed. Some Rovers fans were also lifted up in to the seating area.

[IDM]

I haven't pored over the evidence however it occurs to me that, at that time, it would/should have been expected and anticipated that the crowd would behave - well - as a crowd!  There may have been too many fans arriving at one time, ticketless or not, ans some may have been drinking beforehand.  But the point I make is that that would have been expected and therefore planned for and managed.

Therefore, and this is my opinion only, that the crowd behaving as a crowd would have been expected to, in the 80s, was perhaps a contributory factor but not a cause.  Hence the fans weren't to blame directly.

[normal rules]

out of interest, how many tickets were rovers allocated for the everton match?

and was this figure represented in the ground, or were there others that managed to get in?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's someone who doesn't seem to believe in the British legal system.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sir-bernard-ingham-who-labelled-7837120

[IDM]

I stood in the Shed when Chelsea played Boro in the play offs in 1988 - that was very tight too.  Problem was that once inside the terrace area you could go wherever you wanted to...

[the vicar]

i was also at the Everton game as well but in the seats above as i had my young son with me, and it looked mad at the bottom, it dint help with the Everton sans so close to the left trying to show there muscles

[drfc1951]

Iwas at Hillsborough in 1985 with my bro in law.It was a league game against Liverpool and we were stood on the Wednesday kop. We were in front of a crush barrier and by 2-45 we had been completely turned around, and were crushed against the barrier.We  werent the only ones.The police came and said they were moving us onto the triangle at the Leppings Lane end.While we we moving the turnstiles were still open and hundreds more fans we coming onto the kop end.Iwas suprised there were no serious injuries that day.

[normal rules]

I haven't pored over the evidence however it occurs to me that, at that time, it would/should have been expected and anticipated that the crowd would behave - well - as a crowd!  There may have been too many fans arriving at one time, ticketless or not, ans some may have been drinking beforehand.  But the point I make is that that would have been expected and therefore planned for and managed.

Therefore, and this is my opinion only, that the crowd behaving as a crowd would have been expected to, in the 80s, was perhaps a contributory factor but not a cause.  Hence the fans weren't to blame directly.

IDM you have picked up on one of my initial points here. Its important to know the exact wording of question 7 as put to the jury:

Question 7: behaviour of the supporters
Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Jury’s answer: No.

If your answer to the question above is “no”, then was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Jury’s answer: No.

the key words here for me are: on the part of football supporters and caused or contributed to.

IDM, you yourself have used the term contributory factor, therfore you are also suggestingby definition they contributed something towards the events of the day.

It is this that has got me bewildered as to how the jury came to this decision. It is clear in the cctv footage shown over the years that Liverpool supporters rushed through the gates when opened. Yes, i get that they wanted to get to see the game and yes i get that they may have got to the ground late, but their behaviour, in rushing, in what was already an enclosed overcrowded space was a contributory factor and i cannot see why this has been passed over.

[normal rules]

this image does not get much media coverage.Lions led by donkeys.


http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/78986481-sport-football-pic-15th-april-1989-f-a-cup-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=fOqRSGnZREbdOD5U9z9TH6rVgWYbIZcZpi4lFktfsjqHQVCjm%2bGh8shjULmUyhC2HM2pHLhX5wnusJ%2fX63Q%2fIA%3d%3d

[silent majority]

The key part of the question is 'at the Leppings Lane turnstiles'. Once the gate was opened they were beyond the turnstiles. That question is key because a) the Police lied about the gates being forced, and b) did the supporters have undue influence in forcing the Police to open the gates.

[docothered]

It is a terrible thing what happened on that awful day, no one should ever have to grieve for the loss of a loved 1 who goes to a game of football.
But this is got to be said that a section of  LCF fan's went without tickets and had no intention of paying for 1 plus we're drunk and pushed their way into the ground.
The majority of the blame was undoubtedly the fault of the police and stewards and Sheffield City council.
That said this was in the 80's so why should the current Chief police of South Yorkshire have to resign or be made to retire early.
This is going to have a massive financial impact on the South Yorkshire Police, as well as having the cost of council tax in the South Yorkshire area going up as well.
I am a married man with a family and I feel for those who are grieving  and will carry on grieving but there's got to be a time when you should say enough now.
Their has to be closure and some sort the LFC fan's saying that our fans will never behave like that again and we did not have tickets and we did push our way in and help create to those terrible events.

[IDM]

I used the term "contributory factor" as I did as simply if there hadn't been a big crowd then the disaster would not have happened.  I would contend that the crowd's behaviour was expected and predictable, therefore could have been managed.  Perhaps that is why those answers were given?

An analogy for contributory factors would be a car crash in wet conditions.  The cause is inappropriate driving for the conditions, not the conditions themselves.

[silent majority]

It is a terrible thing what happened on that awful day, no one should ever have to grieve for the loss of a loved 1 who goes to a game of football.
But this is got to be said that a section of  LCF fan's went without tickets and had no intention of paying for 1 plus we're drunk and pushed their way into the ground.
The majority of the blame was undoubtedly the fault of the police and stewards and Sheffield City council.
That said this was in the 80's so why should the current Chief police of South Yorkshire have to resign or be made to retire early.
This is going to have a massive financial impact on the South Yorkshire Police, as well as having the cost of council tax in the South Yorkshire area going up as well.
I am a married man with a family and I feel for those who are grieving  and will carry on grieving but there's got to be a time when you should say enough now.
Their has to be closure and some sort the LFC fan's saying that our fans will never behave like that again and we did not have tickets and we did push our way in and help create to those terrible events.

Once again where is the evidence that supports this argument? These are the lies that the Police fabricated to absolve themselves. The evidence quite clearly demolishes this theory.

[normal rules]

semantics SM. the gate is part of the same wall that encloses the turnstiles.

Had it not been for the overcrowding and surging at and around the turnstiles, the gate would have never been opened. And yes, there was clearly a lie about it being forced. it was allowed to be opened, because of the "behaviour" of the crowd outside.

And before anyone over-reacts, behaviour is not a slur on the crowd as individuals, but merely a reference to the dynamic of a large crowd in an enclosed space. Its called crowd dynamics, and those on the terrace at Everton will understand. Inability to move independently, panic, inability to communicate with other group members etc etc.

[normal rules]

the croiwd dynamic is very apparent on some of the cctv footage outside the turnstiles.

i would have been in a state of panic had i been there. there had to be a release of this pressure. the only sensible option available was to open the gates.

that said, better pre-planning would have prevented this.

i have had experience of leaving wembley on wembley way. metpol stop crowds in groups to stop overcrowding at the tube station in stages - and it works very well. had a similar system been employed at hillsborough then the sad sad day would have been averted.

[The Red Baron]

Just read SM's post,Roger Marshall was spot on, SYP had been expecting another walk in the Park as per the previous year,they did not think that the predicted Gate Rush was going to occur and just weren't prepared for it.

The late rush was caused, at least in part, by travel delays.

[silent majority]

normal rules. Not quite. The question was asked to see if the Liverpool fans behavior was in anyway to blame for the gate being opened, forced or otherwise. The answer quite clearly was no. That's because the surging and congestion was the fault of the Police as disclosed here;

  Supt Roger Marshall, put in charge outside, was new to the role. In his evidence, he accepted the police had no plan to filter people’s entry into the Leppings Lane bottleneck, using police horses or cordons, beyond “some random ticket checking

By 2.48pm, the crowd at the turnstiles had compacted into a dangerous crush, and Marshall radioed the control room, asking if the large exit gate C could be opened. Duckenfield did not respond until Marshall said somebody would die outside if he did not open the gate. At 2.52pm, Duckenfield ordered it open.

[silent majority]

By the way, 30 of the 96 who died were still outside the ground at 2.52pm. They went through the gates that the Police opened and about 10 minutes later they were dead. They all had tickets and were not part of some late, mad, organised mob.

[acko]

I think people are missing a major factor here,football hooliganism in those days and not just one club but the majority,this caused the fencing in supporters so at grounds like Hillsboro no escape from the front.I remember being at Norwich with rovers and personnelly didn't like it

[Chris Black come back]

Duckenfield clearly made errors but I am uncomfortable pinning the blame solely on him.

The guy had no experience of games this size and precious little of football matches more generally.

Who on earth approved him being put in charge of any game let alone one of this magnitude? Absolute madness.

Always feels bit surreal walking into Leppings Lane end to sit in my comfy seat and watch Rovers play there, looking down a few rows on where those poor buggers died.

[The Red Baron]

Duckenfield clearly made errors but I am uncomfortable pinning the blame solely on him.

The guy had no experience of games this size and precious little of football matches more generally.

Who on earth approved him being put in charge of any game let alone one of this magnitude? Absolute madness.

Always feels bit surreal walking into Leppings Lane end to sit in my comfy seat and watch Rovers play there, looking down a few rows on where those poor buggers died.

The David Conn article (link posted above) gives some good insight into the culture which operated in SY Police at that time. It also explains why an experienced match commander was replaced by Duckenfield.

One might have sympathy for Duckenfield in being given a bit of a "hospital pass." However, sympathy soon evaporates when you learn how he operated and, critically, how he made little effort to learn and understand how to carry out the job for which he was responsible.

He then compounded matters by telling an outright lie (about the gate being forced open by fans) which formed the basis for the fiction put about by senior police officers.

Yes, he should not have been given the job of match commander that day, but he made a very inadequate fist of it. So I have no sympathy for him.

[Chris Black come back]

Yes. I read the David Conn article earlier.

The whole structure was wrong, wrong, wrong.

[BillyStubbsTears]

NR

They came charging in once the gate was opened because they were being crushed against the gate! Not because they were trying to force the gate. It's there in the evidence from the Inquest. Go and look at it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

As I've said times many, there was a direct line from the SYP behaviour and fabrication of evidence at Orgreave, straight to Hillsborough 5 years later.

They got away with it at Orgreave, although God alone knows how, given that they implicitly admitted fabricating evidence to try to get innocent men convicted of riot. I've long thought that that experience must have emboldened them and was part of the reason for the combination of cavalier arrogance and mendacity at Hillsborough.

And as someone else has pointed out, in both cases, there was an unhealthily close relationship between them at the Thatcher Government.