Hillsborough inquests:

[BillyStubbsTears]

Always feels bit surreal walking into Leppings Lane end to sit in my comfy seat.

Cheers CBCB. That seating layout was designed by yours truly. Now THAT job truly was a surreal experience for a young lad, I can tell you. 

[les@donr]

Perhaps something will now be done for all the miners injured and wrongly  charged by Police at the "Battle of Orgreave".

[albie]

Why is it that in the UK we seem unable to accept that miscarriages of justice need to be reversed as soon as possible....not decades after the event.

The constant repetition of propaganda lies to cover the backs of SY Police, amplified by the media echo chamber, has prevented the families of those lost from moving on for all these years. This is tragedy as farce.

It is worth remembering the contributions of some who could not be bothered to listen to people at the game. Not just Kelvin Mackenzie and the Sun...here is Boris Johnson throwing his evidence free opinion into the ring;
Bigley's fate | The Spectator

God help us all if he ends up with his hands on the tiller!

[bally1950]

Anyhow, justice for the 96 will no doubt now morph into compo for the 96. I wonder how much syp third party liability runs into?

Criminal charges for David duckenfield? They won't be happy until he is incarcerated and the key thrown away too I suspect.

I've heard today that some are calling for the resignation of the current chief constable of syp.

This will go on and on and on and on.

It was of course a very very sad day for everybody.

The Current Chief retires in a few months, he was due to go earlier but agreed to stay on until this was done.

[bally1950]

Any poster on here who went to Everton with Rovers Circa 1985 will know how bad grounds were back then when it came to overcrowding,
Once I got in behind the goal area I was stuck there, could barely breathe let alone move.

True. I was there too but we were pushed against the front wall

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's true that Hillsborough could have happened at any big ground in the 80s. Could easily have happened to us at Goodison that day. I got lifted clean off my feet in one surge.

The saddest thing about Hillsborough is that it was a chain of events that all congealed into the disaster. If any one hadn't occurred, the disaster would never have happened.

If the police hadn't lost control outside. If Duckenfield had instructed coppers to block the entrance to the tunnel to the central pen. If the barrier hadn't collapsed. If changes had been made to the entrance approach. If fans of all clubs hadn't been acting like Kitsons for years, leading to us being penned into cages.

If, if, if.

Lots of errors that individually were not disastrous, but collectively conspired to turn a difficulty into a catastrophe. As my old boss said under cross examination at the Inquest, "If certain steps had been taken, we would not be here today."

[bally1950]

TRB

As I've said times many, there was a direct line from the SYP behaviour and fabrication of evidence at Orgreave, straight to Hillsborough 5 years later.

They got away with it at Orgreave, although God alone knows how, given that they implicitly admitted fabricating evidence to try to get innocent men convicted of riot. I've long thought that that experience must have emboldened them and was part of the reason for the combination of cavalier arrogance and mendacity at Hillsborough.

And as someone else has pointed out, in both cases, there was an unhealthily close relationship between them at the Thatcher Government.

BST... They as you call them have not got away with it at Orgreave. The IPCC have delayed their announcement whether they are to allow an enquiry or not, until after the Inquest was completed, it has has, so it is down now to the IPCC to give their decision.  South Yorkshire Police was created in April 1974 and I joined in July 1974, YES it was totally built around Sheffield and Rotherham and took many years to sort itself out.. If you went on duty to a Semi as I did several times, you never got near the ground, that was the luxury of those dee dahs. we always ended up either in the city, down a pokey street or at Wadsley Bridge Station.

[Filo]

TRB

As I've said times many, there was a direct line from the SYP behaviour and fabrication of evidence at Orgreave, straight to Hillsborough 5 years later.

They got away with it at Orgreave, although God alone knows how, given that they implicitly admitted fabricating evidence to try to get innocent men convicted of riot. I've long thought that that experience must have emboldened them and was part of the reason for the combination of cavalier arrogance and mendacity at Hillsborough.

And as someone else has pointed out, in both cases, there was an unhealthily close relationship between them at the Thatcher Government.

BST... They as you call them have not got away with it at Orgreave. The IPCC have delayed their announcement whether they are to allow an enquiry or not, until after the Inquest was completed, it has has, so it is down now to the IPCC to give their decision.  South Yorkshire Police was created in April 1974 and I joined in July 1974, YES it was totally built around Sheffield and Rotherham and took many years to sort itself out.. If you went on duty to a Semi as I did several times, you never got near the ground, that was the luxury of those dee dahs. we always ended up either in the city, down a pokey street or at Wadsley Bridge Station.

An old colleague of yours told me he spent the whole afternoon sat in a van away from the ground in reserve unaware of what was unfolding

[bally1950]

It's true that Hillsborough could have happened at any big ground in the 80s. Could easily have happened to us at Goodison that day. I got lifted clean off my feet in one surge.

The saddest thing about Hillsborough is that it was a chain of events that all congealed into the disaster. If any one hadn't occurred, the disaster would never have happened.

If the police hadn't lost control outside. If Duckenfield had instructed coppers to block the entrance to the tunnel to the central pen. If the barrier hadn't collapsed. If changes had been made to the entrance approach. If fans of all clubs hadn't been acting like Kitsons for years, leading to us being penned into cages.

If, if, if.

Lots of errors that individually were not disastrous, but collectively conspired to turn a difficulty into a catastrophe. As my old boss said under cross examination at the Inquest, "If certain steps had been taken, we would not be here today."

You know Billy I wore that uniform for 27 years before having to retire on medical grounds. I got crushed at Barnsley v Leeds on the railway station. My mate got his head caved in by a brick in same fixture.. Policemen are not well errr were not robots, they made mistakes, they were human they got frightened. WE ALL DID. But we had the b*llocks to give it a go

[bally1950]

TRB

As I've said times many, there was a direct line from the SYP behaviour and fabrication of evidence at Orgreave, straight to Hillsborough 5 years later.

They got away with it at Orgreave, although God alone knows how, given that they implicitly admitted fabricating evidence to try to get innocent men convicted of riot. I've long thought that that experience must have emboldened them and was part of the reason for the combination of cavalier arrogance and mendacity at Hillsborough.

And as someone else has pointed out, in both cases, there was an unhealthily close relationship between them at the Thatcher Government.

BST... They as you call them have not got away with it at Orgreave. The IPCC have delayed their announcement whether they are to allow an enquiry or not, until after the Inquest was completed, it has has, so it is down now to the IPCC to give their decision.  South Yorkshire Police was created in April 1974 and I joined in July 1974, YES it was totally built around Sheffield and Rotherham and took many years to sort itself out.. If you went on duty to a Semi as I did several times, you never got near the ground, that was the luxury of those dee dahs. we always ended up either in the city, down a pokey street or at Wadsley Bridge Station.

An old colleague of yours told me he spent the whole afternoon sat in a van away from the ground in reserve unaware of what was unfolding

Yes Filo he was not alone in that. Road Traffic were told it was a public order issue. The radio servive at Hillsborogh in those days was totally U.S. it would have been easier to have a carrier pigeon or a runner to get messages to any one else.

[bally1950]

Sorry my responses are not being added, but no arguments here

[Filo]

Sorry my responses are not being added, but no arguments here

They're added, just in the middle of the txt you quoted, anyway Dave told me he only found out about what had happened when they were stood down. He remembers at the time that he had to be interviewed even though he had no knowledge of the events, he said even then that those doing the interviews were trying to put words into his mouth

[silent majority]

Sorted!

[Al4475]

I agree with BST about Hillsboro when he says this: Lots of errors that individually were not disastrous, but collectively conspired to turn a difficulty into a catastrophe.

It was an awful, awful tragedy but imo there were far too many variables and factors that all conspired at the same time which resulted in the disaster!

Whichever way you dress it up tho - the key concept and ingredient is that the bottle neck over-flow gate/turnstiles further down the road weren't opened as anyone with a modicum of simple common-sense would have realised - Is that one individual person's area/error? I don't know and personally don't believe so - so one particular scapegoat/target of the 'finger of blame' would be very difficult to swallow.

If, as has been reported at some point, there were many Liverpool fans drunk and without tickets descending on Hillsboro that's not great!

If, has been reported at some point, gates weren't opened that's not great either!

If, has been reported at some point, spectators weren't moved to deal with the bottleneck and allow others in - neither's that.

What other stuff has been reported? Such and such an individual said 'yes' too late? Ambulance crews didn't do their duties quickly enough? Paramedics spent too long dealing with individuals that weren't as seriously hurt as others? The ground wasn't up to standard? Police were badly advised? etc etc etc.

Too many 'little' things went wrong and when all added together and snowballed they resulted in this big feckin awful disaster!

Now I haven't seen any reports or, sadly, had the time or inclination to delve into the depths of this - but to me I can't see how one body over another can be held responsible on their own!

Many people say police were out of order and got stuff very wrong, others say Dukenfield was the main reason, some blame SWFC and Hillsboro, some blame the LFC Fans for being drunk/ticketless, or footy fans/hooligans in general that had ensured that cages and pens (as if for animals) became the norm, some blame the company who built/modernised the stadium, others say Ambulance crews and paramedics. I have no overriding conclusion personally - I just think too many thinks went wrong and snowballed into the horrendous events.

Thankfully, and perhaps callously (tho not meant to be) there are silver linings that arose from this - safer, more modern stadia, a more savvy police/steward system and SAGs allied to the stadia - gotta be good for the game despite the perceived lack of atmosphere, sky-high prices, prawn sarny army etc etc etc.

In the late 70s/early 80s the culture revolving around attending footy matches and hindsight tells us Hillsboro was waiting to happen and why didn't we spot it - there had been some serious close calls before. I can't see anything like that happening in this country again as things stand at the moment - that's gotta be a good thing - right?

[bally1950]

Sorry my responses are not being added, but no arguments here

They're added, just in the middle of the txt you quoted, anyway Dave told me he only found out about what had happened when they were stood down. He remembers at the time that he had to be interviewed even though he had no knowledge of the events, he said even then that those doing the interviews were trying to put words into his mouth

Filo.. Very true what Dave said about the investigating people, many had Liverpool accents that were sent over here. I counselled several who had been interviewed both before and after their interviews

[The Red Baron]

Anyhow, justice for the 96 will no doubt now morph into compo for the 96. I wonder how much syp third party liability runs into?

Criminal charges for David duckenfield? They won't be happy until he is incarcerated and the key thrown away too I suspect.

I've heard today that some are calling for the resignation of the current chief constable of syp.

This will go on and on and on and on.

It was of course a very very sad day for everybody.

The Current Chief retires in a few months, he was due to go earlier but agreed to stay on until this was done.

I may be missing something, but I don't understand what is achieved by calling for the current Chief Constable to resign.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

It's about the conduct of South Yorks Oolice during the Inquest.

Here's what one if the lawyers representing the Liverpool families said.
 “It is all the more shameful that, rather than focusing on the search for truth and despite having made public apologies, the approach to the inquests taken by South Yorkshire police and the Yorkshire ambulance service was to fight tooth and nail to avoid adverse findings by the jury.

“This turned the inquests into an adversarial battle that probably doubled the length of time it might otherwise have taken."

[The Red Baron]

Fair enough. I hadn't appreciated that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually, on reflection I've removed my final paragraph above. It was unfair. The police media team were simply providing a summary of every day of the proceedings.

[bally1950]

It really does not matter who said what...It is done, it is finished. There are many who cannot understand why the decision has gone as it has. BUT it will never bring those poor souls back. May they rest in peace and may their families have closure. What is not right though is that the families now have the answers of how their loved ones died behind big fences which were erected due to the behaviour through those ages, even at the Rugby League Cup Final at Wembley (bearing in mind now that I was a Bobby) I asked a Met Bobby why the fences were up as it was not a football match. He said by Order of the stadium, you lot are Northerners. He did say I might add that he thought it was ridiculous but still the Police had no say in it.   

May I just add this point. I have always disliked Liverpool FC and their fans since being to Anfield to see Donny in FA Cup, they were singing that they were the Best Behaved Supporters in the Land, at the same time throwing coins at us in the side stand and then chasing us all the way to the Railway Station. Everton fans by comparison were streets better behaved. The biggest thugs that were around at Goodison were the Coppers. Many of you will also remember buckets for collecting  for The Miners Strike that were taken by Donny lads, they were well full too. Lots of Donny Coppers put money in them as well. 

We are, non of us any different. Will you all stop bickering, yes you can have a view but it ain't gonna bring them back.

[bally1950]

Actually, on reflection I've removed my final paragraph above. It was unfair. The police media team were simply providing a summary of every day of the proceedings.

Billy, I was not going to get into a slagging match on your comments because prior to the Inquest or the Investigation starting SYP instructed that there would be no comments until after the decision, in an effort to allow all the matters. which are not yet finalised to be concluded fully. I do not think you will see them getting into a slagging match despite some challenges already in the tabloids

[Sammy Chung was King]

From what i know, the Liverpool fans had twenty three gates to enter through, whereas the Forest fans who were not as great in number had twenty four.
They opened the gate to alleviate a massive backlogue of Liverpool fans wanting to get in to watch they're team. But opening the gates led to a surge of too many people entering an already overfilled terrace.
The man in charge of operations admitted he froze and didn't know what to do. Many of the officers could see what needed to be done but were not given the order to open different areas, to lessen the fans all going into one area.
Then after making all these mistakes the reports of different officers were changed to suit what they wanted to be said. The local council hadn't done the neccesary checks to see if it was safe enough. The ground lay out also contributed to the disaster. Also ambulances were delayed in being able to get to the hurt or dying.

The families lost people then were lied to and they're loved ones who died were painted as the ones who caused the disaster. When it was a combination of factors, the main one being the incompetence of the police to organise it properly.
And to kick the families in the teeth even more they cover up the real facts!, much like todays government is doing the same. They have to wait twenty seven years for a justice they should have received in the first place!.
Any compensation will be richly deserved for what these families have gone through.
Stupidly you expect the police force to be above the things they have done to these families. I feel sorry for all who witnessed this on that terrible day, supporters, ground staff, players and even the police who saw this happening, some were not aware that they're statements had been changed.

It must be something that you will never get over seeing. In modern day life we are not used to seeing things like this. It was one of those days where you remember exactly where you were when it happened!.
 I hope this decision allows the families to have some sort of peace of mind. Whether this decision leads to custodial sentences for those who were in charge  i don't know, but something like this should never have happened!. Really sad that the families had to fight for so long for some semblance of justice!.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Murdoch eh? That f**king cancer in our society. The owner of The Sun which wrote those vile lies about Hillsborough.

Just been browsing the papers this morning.

Not a word about Hillsborough on the front page of The Sun. Not a word on the front page of The Times. First mention in The Times was page 12.

Horrible, disgusting man.

[Not Now Kato]

Here's a very interesting article on the police hierarchy at Hillsborough, both during and afterwards. 
 
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/south-yorkshire-police-who-did-what-at-hillsborough

[MachoMadness]

Murdoch eh? That f**king cancer in our society. The owner of The Sun which wrote those vile lies about Hillsborough.

Just been browsing the papers this morning.

Not a word about Hillsborough on the front page of The Sun. Not a word on the front page of The Times. First mention in The Times was page 12.

Horrible, disgusting man.

It seems the Times realised their boo-boo (you know, leading with a photo of a bloke shovelling snow and a banner about handbags instead of the longest legal case in UK history coming to a revelatory end after 27 years, just a minor mistake) and altered that for their second edition.

Just to further highlight, the Sun instead decided that a feeble sex pun based around Cameron's aides using Whatsapp was worthy of the front page headline, whereas Hillsborough was not. Funny that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Murdoch eh? That f**king cancer in our society. The owner of The Sun which wrote those vile lies about Hillsborough.

Just been browsing the papers this morning.

Not a word about Hillsborough on the front page of The Sun. Not a word on the front page of The Times. First mention in The Times was page 12.

Horrible, disgusting man.

It seems the Times realised their boo-boo (you know, leading with a photo of a bloke shovelling snow and a banner about handbags instead of the longest legal case in UK history coming to a revelatory end after 27 years, just a minor mistake) and altered that for their second edition.

Just to further highlight, the Sun instead decided that a feeble sex pun based around Cameron's aides using Whatsapp was worthy of the front page headline, whereas Hillsborough was not. Funny that.

'Kin 'ell

Not very often I'm ahead of the social media trends, but I was this morning!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36148748

[albie]

It looks like their might have been some funny handshakes going on;
Freemason police officers tried to ‘shift blame’ after Hillsborough disaster, inquest told | Football | The Guardian

Masons in the establishment, whatever next!

Liverpool Echo saying the same;
Police watchdog probing possible freemasons link to Hillsborough cover-up - Liverpool Echo

Any Masons on here in the know?

[Donnywolf]

... and responding to no particular posts I have to lay the blame (or a proportion of it) at the feet of any Football fan(s) who fought tooth and nail with each other in the previous number of years - say 64 onwards ?

Long running pitch battles and vendettas with a string of "gangs" for want of a better word at most Clubs resulted in the Fences going up around the Country.

The fighting / pitch invasions / breaches of the peace resulted in the Fences being deployed and in the case of Hillsborough the Fences resulted in the deaths of so so many innocent people who had only gone to watch a Football Match

[bally1950]

Woolfie that us you and me. Certainly me I have to say. Yes all part of blame

[bally1950]

Here you go Be Happy, Be Very Happy. A man who was not even in SYP in 1989/

South Yorkshire Police chief suspended over Hillsborough

I will not say any more. other than Utter