Mike F's questions

[The Red Baron]

My speculative punt on fairly common surnames just got me thinking. How many players have ever played a first team game for the club?

Any idea, Dutch/RB et al?

That question opens up other avenues too:
- How many have played one game only (Mirsad Bubalovic, Chris Black etc.)? No doubt plenty in THAT season.
- How many players (not including loans) have had pro contracts with us but never played? (Hakan Hayrettin etc.)?

First of all, a caveat. As there is no definition of a "First Class" football match (unlike cricket) I have been forced to make a rather arbitrary decision. I have included for the purposes of the above the following:

Football League (including Play Offs)
Football League Cup
Associate Members Cup/ FL Trophy and its predecessors
FA Cup Competition Proper
Football Conference (including Play Offs)

Not included are as follows:

FA Cup Qualifying Rounds *
FA Trophy
Conference League Cup (Endsleigh/ Macmillan)
Sheffield County Cup
Sheffield & H Senior Challenge Cup
Midland League
Yorkshire League
Other local cups
Wartime games (other than the 1945-46 FA Cup)

(* In 1924-25 two FA Cup Qualifying Rounds were the equivalent of the First and Second Round Proper now, so these are included. After that the rounds were redesignated).

[The Red Baron]

Question 1. Total Number of Players. As at the end of last season, 1141. No. 1 was Frank Bailey, who was first alphabetically in the Rovers side that played Burslem Port Vale in their first ever Football League fixture (7th September 1901). No. 1141 is Will Longbottom, who made his debut against Burton Albion in the final game of last season.

(PS. If I included the FA Trophy and Conference League Cup in my numbers, which are the two competitions I agonise over the most, the number would be 1144. See below).

[The Red Baron]

Question 2. One game wonders. Amazingly the total is exactly 100!

ALDRIDGE, Stephen Paul (Steve)
AMEOBI, Oluwatomiwo (Tomi)
BANN, Fred
BARRETT, Charles Roger (Roger)
BEDFORD, Samuel (Sam)
BEIRNE, Michael Andrew (Micky)
BELL, George William
BINNS, Ernest Dalton (Ernie)
BLACK, Christopher David (Chris)
BODEN, Kenneth (Ken)
BORG, John Carmel Adam
BRADLEY, Mark
BRENTANO, Stephen Ronald (Steve)
BUBALOVIC, Mirsad Mimi
BUKOVINA, John Frank
BURGE, Ryan James
BUSSINGHAM, Charles (Charlie)
CHALMERS, Grant
CLARK, Robert Jack (Robbie)
COADY, Lewis
CRABTREE, Richard Edward
CULLEN, Anthony Scott (Tony)
CYGAN, Paul
DALE, Leo
DALEY, Alan James (Digger)
DANIELS, Stephen Richard (Steve)
DARBY, Alan
DOWELL, Wayne Anthony
EADES, Colin
FAWCETT, George T.
FINNEGAN, Evan
FLETCHER, John
FOY, Keith Patrick
FRANCE, Darren Brian
GALLAGHER, Nicholas (Nicky)
GARNETT, Malcolm John
GILLIGAN, Augustine Anthony (Gus)
GLIDDEN, William Sidney (Sid)
GORDON, Arthur
GRAYSON, Bradley Andrew
HARKIN, James (Jimmy)
HARLING, Edwin (Eddie)
HATTON, John William
HAWKINS, Harold St.John
HERRINGTON, Eric
HOLLAND, Simon Luke David
HOWARD, David Cecil
HOY, Kristian (Kris)
ILLMAN, Neil David
JONES, David J.
KIRKLAND, Christopher Edmund (Chris)
LECYGNE, Eddy
LEE, Robert
LIEVESLEY, Harold
LINDLEY, William (Manny)
LONG, Nigel
LONGBOTTOM, William Radley (Will)
MANSELL, George William
MASON, Stuart James
MCCARTHY, Jonathan David (Jon)
MCKAY, Mark Brian
MCKAY, Paul
MEADE, Joshua Ryan
MILLAR, William (Billy)
MOORE, Brian
MORRIS, Neil Anthony
NELSON, Edward (Ted)
NETTLETON, William (Willie)
NOTTON, Cecil Leonard Roger
O'BRIEN, Robert Louis (Rob)
OHANDJANIAN, Demis Armen
PAYNE, Joshua James (Josh)
PEDWELL, Ralph
PENMAN, James
PENNY, Christian Vincent (Chris)
PEPPER, Francis (Frank)
PETTIT, James H. (Jimmy)
PITTMAN, Jon-Paul
REECE, Paul John
REES, Abraham (Abe)
RODGERS, Alwyn
ROGERS, Lee Julian
RORRISON, James Armstrong (Jim)
RUSHBY, Alan
RYAN, John Michael
SMITH, Charles Godfrey
SMITH, David Alan
SMITH, Peter Lee
SPEDDING, Thomas William (Tom)
SPEIGHT, Martyn Stephen
STABLES, John (Jack)
STEVENSON, Andrew John (Andy)
TELFORD, Robert (Bob)
THOMPSON, Tyrone I'Yungo
THORNLEY, Roderick Neil (Rod)
VARNEY, Frank
WALKER, Steven (Steve)
WHEELER, Adam Lawrence
WILLIAMS, David
WILLIAMS, Dean Anton


NB: The three players mentioned above are not included here. They are Richard Powell, Marc Ridley and Robert Wild. Three youth players who appeared in a Conference League Cup tie against Southport in 1998.

[The Red Baron]

Question 3. Difficult to quantify the number of players who had professional contracts but never made an appearance. I came across an example the other day, C.H. Walker (aka Mickey Walker senior) who was on Rovers' books in 1946-1948 but never made the first team. The best I can offer is possibly a list of players who were named as substitutes for the first team but never made it onto the pitch. The number of times they were named on the bench is also shown (there are 53 of them):

MAXTED, Jonathan James (Jon)   83
NIELSEN, Tonny   15
TAYLOR, James M.   12
DAVIES, Matthew Allen (Matty)   11
ASKINS, Benjamin Jack (Ben)   9
COLLIN, Adam James   9
MORRIS, Elliot   9
WILKINSON, Ian Matthew   9
FERGUSON, Lewis Edward   8
HOWIESON, Cameron Drew Neru   8
WALKER, Andrew William (Andy)   7
BRADSHAW, Jordan Andrew   6
FLITNEY, Ross Daniel   6
BEENEY, Mark Raymond   4
BUXTON, Nicholas  Gareth (Nick)   4
JONES, Louis   4
KINDEL, Dennis   4
PACEY, Robert William (Rob)   4
COCKERHAM, Lee Andrew   3
NOBLE, Matthew James (Matty)   3
RADFORD, Oscar Stuart   3
ALNWICK, Benjamin Robert (Ben)   2
BYNG, David Graeme   2
CARBERRY, Michael George   2
DIATTA, Lamine   2
FISHER, Charles Oliver   2
HAYRETTIN, Hakan Ramis   2
JONES, Aaron Lee   2
KEARNEY, Martin R.   2
LUCAS, Brett   2
PLESSIS, Damien   2
PUGH, Joseph James   2
REEVES, Darren   2
WILLIAMSON, Michael James (Mike)   2
BINNS, Jordan Thomas   1
BROWN, Scott Peter   1
DICKMAN, Christopher (Chris)   1
FELL, Darren Michael   1
GALLEN, Steven James (Steve)   1
HILTON, James   1
HORAN, Mark   1
JONES, Michael   1
LETHEREN, Kyle Charles   1
LINLEY, Jordan Alex   1
M'BUTI, Sala Kevin (Kevin)   1
MCLAREN, Jack   1
MIDDLEMASS, Scott Lee   1
MULLEN, Patrick James (Paddy)   1
OLDHAM, Robert Ralph (Robbie)   1
PALLANT, Sean Paul   1
SUNLEY, David   1
WHALEY, Simon Paul   1
WILDING, Edward Mark (Eddie)   1

[Mike_F]

Thank you RB. That's a brilliant bit of work in a short time. You're a good man and I'll happily buy you a drink when I see you next.

Reading some of those one game wonders was particularly fun. Dean A Williams played half a game against Darlo if I remember correctly and was so poor he was never seen again.

Chris Black the enigma. John Michael Ryan: never heard of him!

[The Red Baron]

Thanks Mike. I suppose I shouldn't say this but it didn't take me very long. Just a question of pushing a few buttons. I have everything in a database and I spend a day at the end of the season updating everything.

A few years back I did an exercise to assign a number (like those given to Test Cricketers) to each player. I have all the work and I've kept it up to date. I haven't published it though because the issue of  "what is a first class match" is such a can of worms.

[Chris Black come back]

Ahem...

What about Simon Black, one of influx of players in I think 94 close season who never turned out for us but was on squad photo?

[Chris Black come back]

Thank you RB. That's a brilliant bit of work in a short time. You're a good man and I'll happily buy you a drink when I see you next.

Reading some of those one game wonders was particularly fun. Dean A Williams played half a game against Darlo if I remember correctly and was so poor he was never seen again.

Chris Black the enigma. John Michael Ryan: never heard of him!

I am proud to say that I Was There when Dean A Williams made his appearance for Rovers at Belle Vue. If memory serves me correct he was subbed and never again graced the hoops.

[The Red Baron]

Plenty of those. I'll raise you Ross Thompson, Mark Wroe and Alan Impey.

[The Red Baron]

Thank you RB. That's a brilliant bit of work in a short time. You're a good man and I'll happily buy you a drink when I see you next.

Reading some of those one game wonders was particularly fun. Dean A Williams played half a game against Darlo if I remember correctly and was so poor he was never seen again.

Chris Black the enigma. John Michael Ryan: never heard of him!

I am proud to say that I Was There when Dean A Williams made his appearance for Rovers at Belle Vue. If memory serves me correct he was subbed and never again graced the hoops.

I was there too. He was cack. Ditto Rod Thornley who played in the same game as Weaver's fat neighbour.

Minor point but Dean A. Williams didn't play in hoops for us.

[Mike_F]

How many of us have got the Dean A Williams/Chris Black/John Ryan hat-trick then?

Bonus point for Mirsad Bubalovic.

And another for Weaver's fat mate!

[NickDRFC]

Think I'm a bit young for Dean A Williams (may have seen him but don't remember) but I was there for Weaver's mate, at Oxford (I believe) for CB and at Hereford for John. I don't specifically remember seeing Bubalovic but I missed only a game or two of the home games in the conference so must have been there.

[Chris Black come back]

Thank you RB. That's a brilliant bit of work in a short time. You're a good man and I'll happily buy you a drink when I see you next.

Reading some of those one game wonders was particularly fun. Dean A Williams played half a game against Darlo if I remember correctly and was so poor he was never seen again.

Chris Black the enigma. John Michael Ryan: never heard of him!

I am proud to say that I Was There when Dean A Williams made his appearance for Rovers at Belle Vue. If memory serves me correct he was subbed and never again graced the hoops.

I was there too. He was cack. Ditto Rod Thornley who played in the same game as Weaver's fat neighbour.

Minor point but Dean A. Williams didn't play in hoops for us.

Brilliant piece of Rovers pedantry for your final point. With it being a home game it must have been the all red kit with Doncaster Star as sponsors. The away kit that season was all blue. Actually looked pretty good.

[Chris Black come back]

How many of us have got the Dean A Williams/Chris Black/John Ryan hat-trick then?

Bonus point for Mirsad Bubalovic.

And another for Weaver's fat mate!

I can only lay claim to the golden double of Dean A Williams and Chris Black.

[GlennKirkwoodFanClub]

On the subject of the two Dean Williams, I was invited back in 1993 when I was living in London to the match between Brentford and Exeter. In the game both Dean's played and I believe it was the debut of one of them.Then by the start of the following season I'd moved back to Doncaster and saw the debut of both for Rovers v Darlington.

[The Red Baron]

Thank you RB. That's a brilliant bit of work in a short time. You're a good man and I'll happily buy you a drink when I see you next.

Reading some of those one game wonders was particularly fun. Dean A Williams played half a game against Darlo if I remember correctly and was so poor he was never seen again.

Chris Black the enigma. John Michael Ryan: never heard of him!

I am proud to say that I Was There when Dean A Williams made his appearance for Rovers at Belle Vue. If memory serves me correct he was subbed and never again graced the hoops.

I was there too. He was cack. Ditto Rod Thornley who played in the same game as Weaver's fat neighbour.

Minor point but Dean A. Williams didn't play in hoops for us.

Brilliant piece of Rovers pedantry for your final point. With it being a home game it must have been the all red kit with Doncaster Star as sponsors. The away kit that season was all blue. Actually looked pretty good.

I loved that 1994-95 kit. I had both shirts. May still do.

[Chris Black come back]

How many first team games did our friend Ignacio Ibarra make in the 98-99 season? Can't have been many at all.

[The Red Baron]

How many first team games did our friend Ignacio Ibarra make in the 98-99 season? Can't have been many at all.

Off the top of my head about half a dozen.

[The Red Baron]

Actually five.

http://www.doncasterrovers.co.uk/players/XtoZ/Ybarra,Nacho.htm

He also played one game in the FA Trophy against Frickley when he was sent off by Howard Webb.

[DRNaith]

Should Louis Tomlinson be on the Q3 list, being on the books but never making a first team appearance?

[1879Rovers]

I was at Oxford for the Chris Black game. He wound up the Oxford fans all afternoon. I thought they had kidnapped him on the way out.

[The Red Baron]

Should Louis Tomlinson be on the Q3 list, being on the books but never making a first team appearance?

I suppose he would, although strictly speaking he wasn't on a professional contract, just on non-contract forms (as was JR). But as I explained such a list would be almost impossible to construct. Perhaps with access to FL records, which I believe are held at the National Football Museum in Manchester, it could be done.

The list of unused subs was the best alternative I could think of.

[The Red Baron]

How many of us have got the Dean A Williams/Chris Black/John Ryan hat-trick then?

Bonus point for Mirsad Bubalovic.

And another for Weaver's fat mate!

I saw them all. I'm not sure which was least effective. Chris Black was easily the best of the bunch.

[Jonathan]

Ahem...

What about Simon Black, one of influx of players in I think 94 close season who never turned out for us but was on squad photo?

I remember him. Talked up a bit when we signed him from Birmingham.

Didn't we sign Darren Roberts from Wolves around the same time? Started pre season training, then a few weeks later he changed his mind and went to Chesterfield.

[The Red Baron]

Ian Atkins signed him and when Atkins got the tin tack he decided he didn't want to stay.

[Jonathan]

How many of us have got the Dean A Williams/Chris Black/John Ryan hat-trick then?

Bonus point for Mirsad Bubalovic.

And another for Weaver's fat mate!

All of the above. Micky Beirne too. Another one from the Manchester suburbs. Blazed a decent chance high over the Rosso end, never seen again.

My memory obviously fading slightly though, as I thought Beirne and Thornley played in the same match but separate to the fat keeper. Also thought Steve Gallen played more than once.

Great work from TRB pulling together the lists, and a very enjoyable topic looking back over some of the shite we've had!

[Dutch Uncle]

Thanks Mike. I suppose I shouldn't say this but it didn't take me very long. Just a question of pushing a few buttons. I have everything in a database and I spend a day at the end of the season updating everything.

A few years back I did an exercise to assign a number (like those given to Test Cricketers) to each player. I have all the work and I've kept it up to date. I haven't published it though because the issue of  "what is a first class match" is such a can of worms.

TRB - I doff my hat to you (again) for a fabulous piece of work. I remember your article very well, and I enjoyed it more than any other stat based Rovers thing I have ever read (Of course I did not re-read it to make my guess of total Rovers players). I think we discussed it at the time, and I still feel your concept and format are so good I think the club should adopt it (if you are willing of course).

Truly great piece of work 

[The Red Baron]

Beirne played in the season before Smith and Thornley. Subsequently he returned to Belle Vue with Flixton in a FA Cup qualifying match in 1998.

Steve Gallen never got on the pitch and was only named on the bench once. He was injured a lot of the time he was with us. I remember seeing him start a pre-season game at Tamworth. Within a few minutes he had to go off with a cut head.

Despite that he actually won a cap for the Republic of Ireland under-21s while he was with us! Quite amazing!

[Jonathan]

Beirne played in the season before Smith and Thornley. Subsequently he returned to Belle Vue with Flixton in a FA Cup qualifying match in 1998.

Steve Gallen never got on the pitch and was only named on the bench once. He was injured a lot of the time he was with us. I remember seeing him start a pre-season game at Tamworth. Within a few minutes he had to go off with a cut head.

Despite that he actually won a cap for the Republic of Ireland under-21s while he was with us! Quite amazing!

Cheers, your encyclopedic knowledge is amazing on this subject, I love it!

I must have watched Gallen in the reserves a bit as I'm sure I saw him a few times! I had a feeling we had three Irish lads at that time - Gallen, Darren Finley and perhaps one other. But again I could be wrong.

[Chris Black come back]

Finlay was an Ulsterman and recall being capped for them at u21 level when with us.

At time I thought it couldn't get much better than that.