Is Roy right?

[Jonathan]

Rather than revelling in our past failings I still have hope and belief in this young team. Maybe I'm deluded but I'm English and a football fan so I'm going to believe we can build on the positive signs on show so far in this tournament and still do something.

Most of these players are not associated with the history of disappointments so I take no pleasure in looking back at it all and casting aspersions over the limitations of this team. We have all got a bit frustrated but it'll be interesting to see how this group of players rise to the challenge of knockout football. We may fall flat but I hope we have a good crack at it, starting next Monday.

[Bentley Bullet]

YOU ARE BEING WATCHED, ENGLAND.............No pressure like!

[The Red Baron]

Puts it better than I could:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36580159

But what about all them chances?

We created chances, but not enough clear cut ones. The point he's making is that it was folly to make so many team changes.

Going back to chances and conversion, we've left the best pure box predator back at home.

Theo?

Ha, ha! No, I was thinking Defoe. Doesn't offer you what Kane, Sturridge or Vardy do but would be very handy to bring on in a tight game.

[Copps is Magic]

You can't expect the same team of players to play 7 games in 29 days - in heat, in frenetic paced international football, and win the tournament. We're going need a squad to win it.

I was thinking about that. However, would you rather run out of steam in the semis or get knocked out in the quarters or before simply because you'd caused yourselves to go down a tougher route?

Anyway, by the time you get to the last four, most teams will be running on adrenaline anyway.

Tougher? I'm not so sure. Wales will (most likely) have to play Croatia, Belgium/Portugal, then Spain or something similar. We basically have to play France and Germany. In both half of the draws we were due to play someone decent in the 1/4 final. So It's academic about player fitness really, you're going to have to beat someone decent eventually.

As for adrenaline. I think possibly teams like Brazil in the last world cup were running on adrenaline but unfortunately teams like Germany were still running on skill and stuff like that.

[Samson Vidal]

Players are apparently of world class levels (they definitely are pay-wise). so the talent is there.

Surely then it must be poor managerial skills from the pensioner up top?

[IDM]

Hmm... We are through to the second round, unbeaten.  We have created chances in every game but need to improve in the final third, be more ruthless in front of goal.

Remember the world cup in 82?  Italy were poor in their group, 3 draws was it? 

I am not saying England now are the same as Italy in 82, but the point is that in tournament football there is time to improve.

[The Red Baron]

You can't expect the same team of players to play 7 games in 29 days - in heat, in frenetic paced international football, and win the tournament. We're going need a squad to win it.

I was thinking about that. However, would you rather run out of steam in the semis or get knocked out in the quarters or before simply because you'd caused yourselves to go down a tougher route?

Anyway, by the time you get to the last four, most teams will be running on adrenaline anyway.

Tougher? I'm not so sure. Wales will (most likely) have to play Croatia, Belgium/Portugal, then Spain or something similar. We basically have to play France and Germany. In both half of the draws we were due to play someone decent in the 1/4 final. So It's academic about player fitness really, you're going to have to beat someone decent eventually.

As for adrenaline. I think possibly teams like Brazil in the last world cup were running on adrenaline but unfortunately teams like Germany were still running on skill and stuff like that.

We could drop lucky, but most times you're going to be more likely to win against a team that finished third in their group than one that finished second.

[The Red Baron]

Hmm... We are through to the second round, unbeaten.  We have created chances in every game but need to improve in the final third, be more ruthless in front of goal.

Remember the world cup in 82?  Italy were poor in their group, 3 draws was it? 

I am not saying England now are the same as Italy in 82, but the point is that in tournament football there is time to improve.

I was discussing this the other night. The "winners start slowly" idea. Doesn't seem to work in England's case.

[IDM]

Let's just wait and see who we get?  The game may be more open and goals may come.

[Copps is Magic]

Plus we haven't had a major surprise in this tournament yet. There's always a surprise.

I certainly think N.Ireland can get a draw against Germany if they defend for their lives potentially putting them in the other half of the draw to England.

[bobbymax]

We're now up against the second-placed team from what looks the weakest group on the evidence so far so that's a result.
Whoever you get in the quarters and semis are going to be decent but we've already beaten Germany and France this year so neither of those teams should frighten England.
We've dominated every game we've played and one of those was with a virtual reserve side. If the goals come, this team could go a very long way but I still don't think it will peak until 2018. 

[Alan Southstand]

I agree totally with the 'clueless' tag. I think we had run out of ideas by half time - the 2nd half was dire watching. This manager is made for qualifying but is absolutely hopeless when it comes to the proper stuff - he's like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

Had a good listen to the West Ham manager after the game last night and you would all do well to rewind your recordings and have a good listen to him (what a find for ITV by the way).

We need new ideas rather than this tried, tested and failed management. He should have gone after the World Cup, imho. But, he's still here and we have to put up with more of the same.....again. His squad 'picks' (pre tournament) certainly raised a few eyebrows, with Wilshere and Henderson being allowed to travel, despite their injury nightmares, and to have Sterling in there at all totally baffled me. How we could have done with a bit of pace last night - something that only the full backs currently seem to be able to put to good use, Vardy excused.

I'm in the BST camp on England and I believe a lot of our failings are down to the ineptitude (albeit at a high level) of the current management set-up.

One final point - where are all those that were suggesting there wasn't even a place for Rooney in the side? I agree, he is no impact player from the bench as we learned last night, but he has been (arguably) our best midfield player by a country mile!

[BillyStubbsTears]

In both half of the draws we were due to play someone decent in the 1/4 final. So It's academic about player fitness really, you're going to have to beat someone decent eventually.

There are scales though.

Setting England aside, list the top 7 other sides in the competition. The ones who, all other things being equal, if the best sides progressed, you'd expect to make the last 8.

France
Germany
Spain
Italy
Belgium
and a couple from
Portugal, Croatia, Poland, maybe Switzerland

Now, had be won our group, the only ones of those that we could realistically end up playing in the QFs would have been Belgium, and Portugal. As it is, assuming we get there, our QF opponent is likely to be France. That looks like a significantly harder match. I'd have expected us to be favourite or at least on level odds against either Belgium or Portugal. We'll be very much the underdog against France. We've made it much harder than it needed to have been. Which, I suspect, will set us up for another underwhelming final outcome.

Fingers crossed that I'm wrong.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm not one to put ALL the blame for England's half-century of under performance at the door of the manager. The core of our problem is the inability to produce genuinely world-class players with ability, intelligence and discipline. But management decisions like last night's hardly help, do they?

[wing commander]

    I don't think the changes were the problem,if we haven't got squad players capable of beating a poor team like that we haven't a hope...I also agree with how tactically inept we are at adapting..We did exactly what they hoped we would do,play aimless balls across free space in midfield while looking to find a ball through a packed defence...Wilshere isn't fit,any fool can see that he shouldn't have been on the plane and Berkely should have played....

    It is totally beyond me how bad our crossing is from either set pieces or general play,i'm not exaggerating when I say it's Sunday League standard...

The first thing I would like to do is make them put all the carpet slippers they play in these days in the bin and make them play in proper boots which means you can beat the first man from a dead ball...Especially Henderson but hopefully that's the last we've seen of him...

   I thought we were inept,cluless and plain awful against a team that once again every other good team would beat everytime....Clyne was the only positive and once they doubled him up our chance was over...As we always do we've made life hard for ourselves in a group we should win at a canter and made our passage through so much harder..We've come second to Wales for gods sake,a team made up of championship and league 1 and 2 footballers and while ever other team with a chance of winning it has been able to stroll through the last game saving mental and physical energy we had to push to the end...

     I agree with the theory we will do better against sides who now have to come out and play but last night was simply not good enough,and once again showed how far behind we are with our ability to manage a football game and adapt tactically....However well we do from here Hodgson shouldn't get another contract...

   

 

[Copps is Magic]

It is totally beyond me how bad our crossing is from either set pieces or general play,i'm not exaggerating when I say it's Sunday League standard...

For me it's the running in the box that is the problem. Cahill is basically stationary 12 yards out on corners and free-kicks. He should be bombing in there from deep. He also seems to be the only one who gets on the end of balls. Where are the others?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Rather than revelling in our past failings I still have hope and belief in this young team. Maybe I'm deluded but I'm English and a football fan so I'm going to believe we can build on the positive signs on show so far in this tournament and still do something.

Most of these players are not associated with the history of disappointments so I take no pleasure in looking back at it all and casting aspersions over the limitations of this team. We have all got a bit frustrated but it'll be interesting to see how this group of players rise to the challenge of knockout football. We may fall flat but I hope we have a good crack at it, starting next Monday.

I think you're confusing "revelling" with "being aware of and tempering one's expectations as a result".

[wing commander]

   They probably worked out it wasn't worth the effort making the runs as the corner either failed to beat the first man (mostly) or was aimed at Skirtels head on the 6 yard line...Something he's made a career defending against for Liverpool week in week out...
   And if they were crossing from the wings the best position to attack the ball was sat next to the cameraman behind the goal....

[Alan Southstand]

Not ALL the blame BST, but most of it. Our obsession with an Englishman has seen us with some right tools as managers over the years. Then, when we did eventually look abroad, we got Sven and Capello! Says a lot for the hirers and firers.

The present incumbent is ok and he's a nice guy but he's from a time 20 years ago, not the here and now.

We have some good young lads and, on recent evidence, some good ones in the U21's - please let's not waste the opportunity we have to build on what we have - instead of floundering from one debacle to the next.

[Jonathan]

Rather than revelling in our past failings I still have hope and belief in this young team. Maybe I'm deluded but I'm English and a football fan so I'm going to believe we can build on the positive signs on show so far in this tournament and still do something.

Most of these players are not associated with the history of disappointments so I take no pleasure in looking back at it all and casting aspersions over the limitations of this team. We have all got a bit frustrated but it'll be interesting to see how this group of players rise to the challenge of knockout football. We may fall flat but I hope we have a good crack at it, starting next Monday.

I think you're confusing "revelling" with "being aware of and tempering one's expectations as a result".

It's just a perception of how it comes across, that's all.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm just a jaded old get who expended all his naive enthusiasm on England years ago.

I've seen this "This time we've got a different set" plenty of times. I've yet to see anything from this group to suggest that they are any more capable of living up to that concept than their forebears. Here's hoping they prove me wrong.

[wing commander]

I'm just a jaded old get who expended all his naive enthusiasm on England years ago.

I've seen this "This time we've got a different set" plenty of times. I've yet to see anything from this group to suggest that they are any more capable of living up to that concept than their forebears. Here's hoping they prove me wrong.

    That's a fair point Billy and I agree with it...If you had confidence the old mistakes have been eradicated maybe I could get a bit more excited but it has previous history written all over it..Fail to win a simple group without been able to save mental energy,which gives us a much harder draw going forwards to what ends up with the inevitable quarter final defeat...

    I really wanted to be positive about Englands chances this time around but they have to offer the fans something to get behind and make a statement to all the other teams...

[Copps is Magic]

I think this was the first tournament in a long time people went in to with a pragmatic appraisal of England's chances. Everyone knows the history. To start drawing on it after we've absolutely dominated all three games in the group stage is just odd timing.

[wing commander]

    I cant understand this fascination with getting excited about dominating games it means absolutely nothing and is no reflection on performance....We've dominated possession because the opposition were happy for us to do so, confident that we can do little with it and they have been proved right...Russia had the same plan as the Slovaks,both worked for them and in both games apart from one set piece free kick we failed to break either team down.!!!

[Copps is Magic]

Dominating a game is no reflection on performance? Really? You're going to have to explain that one to me WC.

In the first half against Russia we were fantastic, in the 2nd half against Wales it was wave after wave of attack and against Slovakia they hardly even made it into our half.

It's no good being wet flannels at this point lads. You have to give credit where it is due. Does it mean anyone is getting excited about actually winning the tournament? Of course not.

[wing commander]

   I have explained it Copps..It was nothing to do with our good play that we dominated both games.Both Russia and Slovakia's game plan was for us to have possession in a certain area limiting us to long range shots and chances with low percentage of conversion...We had lots of both that the opposition were happy with,forget the stats we had 2 good chances all game,the rest were nothing other than speculative chances when we ran out of ideas how to break them down...

 If you believe that both those teams had started the game with a intention of getting at us and it was our good play that gave us that dominance then we will have to disagree...

[Mike_F]

The game plan from Russia and Slovakia was clear.

I would hope that in the knockout stages, teams will be a bit more attack-minded as they will need to score to progress. That said, If I was managing ANYONE against England in a knockout match I'd try to take it to penalties...

[Samson Vidal]

   I have explained it Copps..It was nothing to do with our good play that we dominated both games.Both Russia and Slovakia's game plan was for us to have possession in a certain area limiting us to long range shots and chances with low percentage of conversion...We had lots of both that the opposition were happy with,forget the stats we had 2 good chances all game,the rest were nothing other than speculative chances when we ran out of ideas how to break them down...

 If you believe that both those teams had started the game with a intention of getting at us and it was our good play that gave us that dominance then we will have to disagree...

Completely agree, annoys me at the upmost when i see all these pundits and reporters saying that we dominated a team that parked the bus. what they need is a good slating from the press and manager, but can you see roy hodgson grilling the england squad?

We need a manager who has passion for the game and gets the players to realise that they are representing the country such as west hams' slavan bilic bloke.

somebody needs to bring these players down to earth, because i cannot see a spark of creativity or desire from half of these players.

[Copps is Magic]

When Poland beat Ukraine and Germany draw with N. Ireland people will start realising Roy's played a blinder and should be knighted.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Since it appears that one or two people have misinterpreted my take, I'll spell it out.

I have wanted to see my country show that they are a match for the best since I first understood what football was.

 As a infants school kid I saw Gunter Netzer run rings round us in 1972. Tomakiewski and the marvellous Polish team finish us off the year after. Every couple of years since I've wanted us to prove that we're as good as the others.

But we never have. And I realised a couple of decades ago that we probably never would. Because our game has neither the wit nor the interest to do so.

But every generation we suspend disbelief and tell ourselves that maybe this group might be the one. And whilst ever we're prepared to big up the current crop and look for positives where they don't really exist, it'll never get any better. 

So yeah, we've "dominated" three group matches. But those three group matches are the equivalent of a regiment Trooping the Colour. Let's see what happens when they come up against oppositions who fire big bullets from big guns.

Enthusing about dominating possession (and failing to Winnie scored rom open play) against sides as weak as Slovakia and Russia is your right. Telling yourself that we created a host of chances and were denied by miraculous defending is fine if that's your choice.

But we really ought to be better than that. Maybe this lot will prove me wrong. But there was nothing in last night's performance to indicate that they will.