Another referendum?

[Lipsy]

But that's my point. Referendums don't need facts. A similar thing was posted about Brexit last year - it was a total work of fiction, but that didn't stop it from being shared 100s of thousands of times and seen by goodness knows how many more people. Facts are immaterial when people see and read things that chime with what they want to hear or read. Add England's nationalism into the mix, which is being used as a sign that we're ignoring Ireland and Scotland, and we have a heady brew coming our way, I fear.

Still, the current names for the little 'ole England are looking good:

'FUK' (Former United Kindom) or 'Poundland' - not sure which I prefer.

There are plenty of Brexiteers that are happy for Scotland and (presumably) N.I. to go, so it's all good.... It's what people voted for, I'm sure. Which is nice.

[Filo]

What Scotland has to realise, is if they vote to leave the union then come running back cap in hand a broke Country they will not get back what they had, the rest of the UK will surely play hardball with them

[Lipsy]

You mean Wales and England, surely? It has plenty of resources and the means to go it alone. As I believe I have said already, if the will is there to leave then no amount of half-hearted threats or bullying is going change that.

It's what Brexiteers wanted, though. No silly half-border with an EU country in Ireland and a nice hard border to patrol to keep those pesky Scotch folk at bay. I'll leave it to Farage to get the bulk order for razor wire in...

[Bentley Bullet]

What do you mean it's what Brexiters wanted? Have you any evidence of that? Since when did Brexiters want the Scots to have independence?

[Lipsy]

Well, they want to take back control - it's a bit hypocritical if 'we' are allowed to but 'they' are not, no? It makes no sense whatsoever. Brave Brexiteers fought hard to win back sovereignty they already had and to get control of their borders (which we already controlled) - why shouldn't Scotland, which had a specific pledge in its manifesto to hold a referendum, not do the same? Also, wasn't the last Scottish referendum in part won with the old 'Stay in the UK or you might end up outside of the EU and face economic ruination' line? Some would argue it played its part. Again, a bit hypocritical now...

Moreover, we all had plenty of time to read up prior to the Brexit vote. I certainly read plenty before and since the referendum that warned of this potential outcome. In part, it's why I voted the way I did. It follows that, given that warnings were made (and I think that Farage batted the threat of Scotland leaving prior to the vote), I think it's safe to assume that Brexiteers were unconcerned about the union...

Besides, any Brexiteer saddened by the news from Ireland and Scotland should just accept it as collateral damage for winning.

[Lipsy]

There you go, Farage did say it: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14507821.Farage_says_idea_Sturgeon_will_call_second_Scottish_independence_pool_after_Brexit_is__moonshine_/

So, as I said, the discussion was being had prior to June 23rd...

[Sprotyrover]

Just been looking at Scotlands 'Resources ' wind power wow, fishing ........equals Spanish and French pirates plundering their seas and Fishing Quotas.
Unfortunately for us the Jocks are like a chuffing great boil on our neck 64 % of Their trade is with us, without us they are nothing,they need a few home truths telling to them to be Honest!

[Lipsy]

So you think it would be foolish for the Scottish to leave their nearest and biggest trading partners - even though they're in a union they think doesn't always work in their best interests? 

[Ldr]

No but it is foolish wanting them to stay part of the union, let them go then we can find out which one of you above spouting your own versions bullshit can be proved right

[idler]

Divide and conquer.

[Bentley Bullet]

There you go, Farage did say it: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14507821.Farage_says_idea_Sturgeon_will_call_second_Scottish_independence_pool_after_Brexit_is__moonshine_/

So, as I said, the discussion was being had prior to June 23rd...

Where does Farage say he wanted Scotland to be independent?

[Lipsy]

Er, I mentioned in a post above that before the referendum even took place that people were talking about the distinct possibility of the union breaking up if we voted to leave the EU. I mentioned that Farage had said that there wouldn't be another referendum in Scotland if we voted to leave the EU; that link shows that a) we were talking about the union breaking up (as a side note: we were talking about it over a year ago) and that b) Farage had said another ref vote wouldn't happen in Scotland.

I certainly wasn't saying Farage wanted Scotland to leave.

[Bentley Bullet]

You said that brexiters wanted an independent Scotland. I asked if you had any evidence of that and you replied with a story about Farage, with the comment 'There you go, Farage said it'. He didn't.

If anything there will probably be more Remainers than Brexiters in Scotland wanting independence.

[Lipsy]

I thought that's where you were trying to go with that... Oh dear.

Right, Farage knew that the union would have been at risk if we voted to leave (he was asked about it in the link I provided). His party's entire raison d'etre was to get the country out of the EU - he's hardly likely to admit that voting to leave the EU could risk the union...

If he knew it was a risk (and he did), he was more than happy to lie about it and deal with the fallout. Ergo, he was happy to risk the union just to get what he wanted and was happy enough for Scotland to go.

You do know how politicians work, yeah?

[Lipsy]

Well, they want to take back control - it's a bit hypocritical if 'we' are allowed to but 'they' are not, no? It makes no sense whatsoever. Brave Brexiteers fought hard to win back sovereignty they already had and to get control of their borders (which we already controlled) - why shouldn't Scotland, which had a specific pledge in its manifesto to hold a referendum, not do the same? Also, wasn't the last Scottish referendum in part won with the old 'Stay in the UK or you might end up outside of the EU and face economic ruination' line? Some would argue it played its part. Again, a bit hypocritical now...

Moreover, we all had plenty of time to read up prior to the Brexit vote. I certainly read plenty before and since the referendum that warned of this potential outcome. In part, it's why I voted the way I did. It follows that, given that warnings were made (and I think that Farage batted the threat of Scotland leaving prior to the vote), I think it's safe to assume that Brexiteers were unconcerned about the union...

Besides, any Brexiteer saddened by the news from Ireland and Scotland should just accept it as collateral damage for winning.

I think you missed this post, BB - and then clicked on the link in the post after it thinking that was my "proof". I have highlighted the more important bit.

[Bentley Bullet]

So you think people voted Brexit because they wanted Scotland to have another independence referendum, assuming, of course, that they knew the Scots would vote a Remain majority, and also assume that if the Scots did have another independence vote, it would be successful?

[Lipsy]

No, I think that people (including Farage) knew that the union was at risk if they voted to leave the EU but prioritised voting to leave the EU over the future of the union of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, etc... (A bit like, if I fancied porking someone else I would be prioritising my dick over my marriage... and therefore I would have to be happy with the consequences of my action, like divorce or having my tackle removed.)

So to repeat:
As we voted to leave, we clearly were less concerned about the United Kingdom over our desire to leave the EU. Therefore, having voted the way we did, we have to be happy with the consequences...

[Bentley Bullet]

So, unless we all knew the Scots would vote a majority to remain, and that if the vote went to leave Jimmy Crankie would want another vote on independence, and of course assuming the Brexiters knew that such a vote would be allowed (considering it is STILL not known whether it will be), don't you think it's a very far-reaching risk of ifs and buts for it to have been of main consideration when deciding on one's EU vote.

[Lipsy]

Jesus wept, BB. I don't think I can explain it in any simpler way without using pictures. As I have said, it was made clear that the union would be at risk - it was even covered by the Mail over a year ago http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3460706/Tony-Blair-claims-UK-break-Britain-leaves-EU-intervention-former-Prime-Minister.html. Farage tweeted about it. It was covered, mentioned, discussed. Simple as.

If people went into the vote ignorant of the potential consequences of their vote then God help us all. And even if people were ignorant of the potential consequences, you still have to suck up (and be happy with) the consequences. It's very simple stuff, really. You can't go "Oh, I didn't realise that a thing that people said was going to happen might actually happen" nor can you go "Oh, I was totally ignorant about that so I'm not responsible" - it doesn't work that.

Equally, you can't have your cake and eat it.

[Bentley Bullet]

Bloody Hell! The Mail! I'm surprised that you used the Daily Mail, you'll be slain by the lefties for believing owt in that rag!

On a serious note, what I'm saying is people who considered the possibility of Scotland requesting a second referendum, having the request granted, and the vote going in favour of independence, didn't give that If, if, and if outcome of events priority over what they thought were other, more important advantages of leaving the EU.

Then, of course, there will no doubt be some voters who probably didn't care, or even wanted Scotland to go alone.

That's another argument.

[Lipsy]

Well, I didn't say that the Mail believed what Tony 'WMD' Blair was saying at the time, did I? Just that it was out there and had been discussed across broad sections of media - even ones that might have dismissed it.

I think that the rest of what you said mirrors what I have been saying, tbh. Though I may have thrown you a little with my overuse of the word 'happy' - I am not saying that Leave voters across the country will be dancing in the streets over the (potential) break up of the UK (though some would, I guess). But - regardless of their knowledge or ignorance - they have to accept it because it was always a (potential) consequence of their vote choice.

[Bentley Bullet]

OK, fair do's mate.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Jesus wept, BB. I don't think I can explain it in any simpler way without using pictures. As I have said, it was made clear that the union would be at risk - it was even covered by the Mail over a year ago http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3460706/Tony-Blair-claims-UK-break-Britain-leaves-EU-intervention-former-Prime-Minister.html. Farage tweeted about it. It was covered, mentioned, discussed. Simple as.

If people went into the vote ignorant of the potential consequences of their vote then God help us all. And even if people were ignorant of the potential consequences, you still have to suck up (and be happy with) the consequences. It's very simple stuff, really. You can't go "Oh, I didn't realise that a thing that people said was going to happen might actually happen" nor can you go "Oh, I was totally ignorant about that so I'm not responsible" - it doesn't work that.

Equally, you can't have your cake and eat it.

Oh come on now, it's only the Remoaners who have to do that! 

[Yargo]

Jesus wept, BB. I don't think I can explain it in any simpler way without using pictures. As I have said, it was made clear that the union would be at risk - it was even covered by the Mail over a year ago http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3460706/Tony-Blair-claims-UK-break-Britain-leaves-EU-intervention-former-Prime-Minister.html. Farage tweeted about it. It was covered, mentioned, discussed. Simple as.

If people went into the vote ignorant of the potential consequences of their vote then God help us all. And even if people were ignorant of the potential consequences, you still have to suck up (and be happy with) the consequences. It's very simple stuff, really. You can't go "Oh, I didn't realise that a thing that people said was going to happen might actually happen" nor can you go "Oh, I was totally ignorant about that so I'm not responsible" - it doesn't work that.

Equally, you can't have your cake and eat it.

Oh come on now, it's only the Remoaners who have to do that! 

I'm currently wearing EU underpants and flying the EU flag whilst singing its anthem,but i'm an ardent anti-Nationalist,even if i think Scotland should negotiate its own trade deal whist an EU member,or maybe i just write any old cobblers?

[RedJ]

You're right about that one.

[Lipsy]

Makes you proud, dunt it?

https://vimeo.com/208529700

It would be churlish of me to guess which way he voted in the EU referendum, but he is exhibiting snowflake tendencies... 

[ravenrover]

Lipsy I'm no Economist but what currency do you think Scotland will have and what about the financial support required to back it? I can't see Alfies Mum allowing them to keep the pound

[Lipsy]

God alone knows that one - it would be an out and out mess, tbh. As we stand, we're a very, very long way from there being the will for another referendum in Scotland or one in N.I and the Republic, but as the situation changes (and we start to feel the pinch of Article 50 being triggered and Brexit as a whole) that could change very quickly. If and when that does happen, I don't think voters will care about those kinds of details and will vote with their hearts and not necessarily with their heads, which is kind of what we have been talking about throughout this thread.

I think it's going to be fun to watch, tbh.

[RedRover45]

I wouldn't have thought it was much fun you watching it judging by the amount of moaning you've done in this thread.

[Lipsy]

I'm not moaning at all. I genuinely find all of this fascinating - it's a massively interesting (and fun) time at the moment. We're all passengers now, so watching it all happen and unfold is better done with a bucket of popcorn than crying into your beer.