Is the squad weaker?

[aidanstu]

Ok it’s being said by a few that we have a weaker squad than last season. Let’s put this one to bed.

GK wise we lost Etheridge. We already have two other good Keepers on the books and our 3rd, Jones, would likely have kept Etheridge out in any event. We effectively lost our 4th choice keeper. Can’t say we are weaker in the GK department.

Central Defensively we have lost Boyle, who was on loan, and Baudry, but this now gives Joe Wright the chance to progress. There is a good chance Wright would have started anyway.

At left back we have lost  Evina. Don’t see anybody too upset at losing him; especially as they would be 3rd and 4th choice behind Andrew and Amos, who has emerged since the start of last season.

At right back we lost Alcock but Lund has come through the ranks.

Defensively we are therefore stronger in my view although I would like to see another centre half through the door as cover.

In midfield we have lost Houghton and Kongolo, who were both on loan and not pulling up any trees;. those 2 have been replaced with Crawford and Kane. Crawford looks a great buy when fit and Kane I’ll reserve judgement on but by all accounts looks to be a star. We also got Max Waters but again I’ll reserve judgement.

In effect then from a first team perspective we lost Houghton and Kongolo and gained Crawford and Kane. Is anybody complaining so far?

Up front we lost Williams, who barely featured and wasn’t great when he did and Mandeville, who I personally would have liked to have been given another chance. We have gained Wilks and Taylor. Again it’s hard to argue we are weaker in attack either.

In my view yes we have a smaller squad, we have adequately replaced those that have left or already have cover in their positions. I simply don’t buy the argument we are weaker although I think to really push on we need another central defender and central midfielder through the door.

[Al4475]

Aidenstu - look at your defense bit again - I think you may have missed out alcock/baudry and Williams from up top.

Great idea by the way - to actually write it all down.

[dickos1]

A few players missing
Alcock, Williams, baudry,

Keegan, Taylor Sinclair and Middleton didn’t play for us last season.

[drfchound]

Neither did Evina but he keeps getting mentioned as a player we have lost from last season.

[aidanstu]

Thanks, I’ve amended the OP except for the Evina but the as he was our player last year although clearly he was on loan and didn’t feature.

[sedwardsdrfc]

On paper by numbers we are worse but as i've said before most of those we've lost weren't performing so it could be said they aren't really a loss.

Imo playing players in their proper positions and not freezing players out will make up for having a smaller squad

[dickos1]

Neither did Evina but he keeps getting mentioned as a player we have lost from last season.

Evina was still our player the others weren’t.

[dickos1]

On paper by numbers we are worse but as i've said before most of those we've lost weren't performing so it could be said they aren't really a loss.

Imo playing players in their proper positions and not freezing players out will make up for having a smaller squad

What do you mean by freezing out players?

[drfchound]

Neither did Evina but he keeps getting mentioned as a player we have lost from last season.

Evina was still our player the others weren’t.

But he didn’t play for us last season so can hardly be pinpointed as a player who has gone and made the squad weaker.

[aidanstu]

On paper by numbers we are worse but as i've said before most of those we've lost weren't performing so it could be said they aren't really a loss.

Imo playing players in their proper positions and not freezing players out will make up for having a smaller squad

What do you mean by freezing out players?

I’m guessing he means Mandeville who at one stage was looking like a real prospect until injury then reportedly getting frozen out because he didn’t openly display upset at being dropped.

[dickos1]

I agree, but we will have been paying some of his wages.
Anyhow let’s just see what happens, if we get injuries to certain players we’re going to be in a bit of a pickle

[dickos1]

On paper by numbers we are worse but as i've said before most of those we've lost weren't performing so it could be said they aren't really a loss.

Imo playing players in their proper positions and not freezing players out will make up for having a smaller squad

What do you mean by freezing out players?

I’m guessing he means Mandeville who at one stage was looking like a real prospect until injury then reportedly getting frozen out because he didn’t openly display upset at being dropped.

Mandeville is all down to his attitude and he’s not really pulled up trees with any other manager has he?

[aidanstu]

On paper by numbers we are worse but as i've said before most of those we've lost weren't performing so it could be said they aren't really a loss.

Imo playing players in their proper positions and not freezing players out will make up for having a smaller squad

What do you mean by freezing out players?

I’m guessing he means Mandeville who at one stage was looking like a real prospect until injury then reportedly getting frozen out because he didn’t openly display upset at being dropped.

Mandeville is all down to his attitude and he’s not really pulled up trees with any other manager has he?

I take your point re the other managers but he still seems to have been frozen out because of his “attitude”. There maybe other incidents but only know of one which in the face of it seems a little harsh.

[aidanstu]

A few players missing
Alcock, Williams, baudry,

Keegan, Taylor Sinclair and Middleton didn’t play for us last season.

Just checked again and they all had squad numbers last season.

[NickDRFC]

A few players missing
Alcock, Williams, baudry,

Keegan, Taylor Sinclair and Middleton didn’t play for us last season.

Just checked again and they all had squad numbers last season.

Not sure how - ATS signed for Plymouth in June 17, Keegan for Waterford in July 17. Middleton I hunk did start the season with us but was out permanently before the end of the transfer window.

[phil old leake]

Only time will tell. Apart from difficulty in buying one I just wish we could get ourselves a “kitson “ figure to support JM. I’d also like to see Vieira on the books. I thought he looked like he had a lot of class.  All that been said we scored 3 in the opener and maybe this season we might see the best of Kiwomya now he’s hopefully fully recovered.  I can’t see that player for player we look stronger. Maybe a bit more flair
I’m hoping we can get another win on Saturday and just keep the momentum rolling.  There’s no fear of relegation in my view it’s just how far from the middle of the table we end up. 

[aidanstu]

A few players missing
Alcock, Williams, baudry,

Keegan, Taylor Sinclair and Middleton didn’t play for us last season.

Just checked again and they all had squad numbers last season.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%9318_Doncaster_Rovers_F.C._season
Not sure how - ATS signed for Plymouth in June 17, Keegan for Waterford in July 17. Middleton I hunk did start the season with us but was out permanently before the end of the transfer window.

[mpc123]

We are stronger than last year in my opinion, all the players we got rifled of were either ones that didn't play to their potential let's put it or constantly injured.

We have replaced with much stronger and younger and have more hunger with better quality.

We pretty much have cover for every position and with players that you can trust can do a half decent job.

The changes which are the key factor are GM and his formation change.

[dickos1]

We’ve no idea how the formation is going to work yet, and we’ve replaced Williams with a loan signing. Baudry and Alcock with a defender that Ferguson signed that McCann might not even rate.
And we’ve signed an attacking midfielder a position which were overloaded with

[Al4475]

it seems Rovers are weaker numbers wise - but stronger ability wise - still room for others tho - if the manager finds somebody 'better than what we have' I'm sure it'll be financed.

[ravenrover]

Yet again why is Anderson not being classed as strengthening the squad and replacing Baudry? after all he was only on loan last season and not one of our own

[aidanstu]

Yet again why is Anderson not being classed as strengthening the squad and replacing Baudry? after all he was only on loan last season and not one of our own

If you’re working on that logic we have to consider the fact that Our current loan signings aren’t ours and can’t be considered to have strengthened the team. If that is the case we are definitely weaker.

[selby]

   In Anderson and Wright we have two young centre halves that will only improve with experience, however we need to be proactive and give Wright a new contract. Without signing anyone, if Mason and Rowe are played in their strongest positions we are better off.
  A fit Kiwomya and playing him in a wider role looks to be an improvement. Marosi is a better goalkeeper and has improved as has Lawlor, so two good more experienced young goalkeepers.
   Andrew hopefully will play a bigger part this season, and with Amos pushing we have two left sided defenders instead of shoe horning Mason or Rowe into playing out of position.
  Wilks in the few games he has played, looks far stronger and quicker than anyone who partnered Marquis upfront last season, and even Beestin and May have more experience at this level.
   Crawford is in a different class as an attacking midfielder if we can keep him fit, Whiteman and Blair have had a season at this level,and McCullough has had a preseason and is fit to play, Lund is an improvement on Alcock, who was not fit for two seasons and was getting slower, and we still have funds that if needed can be used in the loan market.
  Please explain if you think we are weaker, I don't, although I would be trying for a striker, and a defender who can play across the back four in the loan period.

[ravenrover]

Yet again why is Anderson not being classed as strengthening the squad and replacing Baudry? after all he was only on loan last season and not one of our own

If you’re working on that logic we have to consider the fact that Our current loan signings aren’t ours and can’t be considered to have strengthened the team. If that is the case we are definitely weaker.

Afraid you've lost me on that one, are you saying the players we have signed or are on loan have weakened this seasons squad compared to last?
Just remind me who we have lost

[aidanstu]

Yet again why is Anderson not being classed as strengthening the squad and replacing Baudry? after all he was only on loan last season and not one of our own

If you’re working on that logic we have to consider the fact that Our current loan signings aren’t ours and can’t be considered to have strengthened the team. If that is the case we are definitely weaker.

Afraid you've lost me on that one, are you saying the players we have signed or are on loan have weakened this seasons squad compared to last?
Just remind me who we have lost

I was pointing out that if you wasn’t considering a loan signing as a player who strengthens the squad last season, then you would have to exclude loan players when considering the strength of the squad this season to.

In your second point I listed the people we lost in the OP.

I believe we are stronger, certainly a more exciting and attaching squad. We are certainly not weaker.

[Dutch Uncle]

Many thanks to Aidanstu for starting this thread. My analytical tuppence:

First of all we have to compare like with like. For me the best comparison is the squad at the end of last season with that of now. Also I will only compare ‘senior professionals, i.e. not youth players like Blaney, Longbottom, Watters etc with the exception of Amos who now seems to be seen as a first team squad player, and as GM has said, above Garratt in any pecking order. So I count Amos as a new player in this analysis. Also we should not count any of our players on a season long loan at other clubs – so Evina and Lund were ‘not’ our players last year, just as Mandeville and Garratt are ‘not’ this year. That does mean that Lund should be seen as a ‘new’ player this year.

If we count with  those rules then we ended last season with 21 players and 4 loanees:

G: Marosi, Lawlor
D: Butler, Wright, Mason, Andrew, Anderson(L), Boyle(L), Alcock, Garratt, Baudry
M: Coppinger, Rowe, Whiteman, Blair, McCullough, Beestin, ben Khemis, Houghton(L), Kongolo(L)
F: Marquis, May, Kiwomya, Williams, Mandeville

We currently have a first team squad of 20 senior professionals, 2 loanees and Amos. It is not beyond the realms of possibilities to add two loan players before 31 August which is when we really should be comparing. Of the 25 above the changes are:

Def: OUT: Anderson(L), Boyle(L), Alcock, Garratt, Baudry             IN: Anderson, Lund, Amos
Mid: OUT: Houghton(L), Kongolo(L)                                              IN: Crawford, Taylor, Kane(L)
Str: OUT: Williams, Mandeville                                                      IN: Wilks(L)

Defence looks weaker: Boyle as a fifth CB did not need replacing, Amos for Garratt no difference (yet!), Lund for Alcock little difference (based onlast season, not before), and Baudry not replaced means weaker IMHO

Midfield looks potentially better, depending on how Kane works out

Striker is lighter in numbers, but Wilks initially at least looks better than either of Williams or Mandeville based on last season’s contributions.

So not a lot in it IMHO, and if we do get e.g. a loanee striker and defender then we could be definitely better.

However, and here is my main point – all of the above is ‘on paper’ only. Effectively Andrew, Kiwomya and McCullough missed nearly all of last season and could feel like three new players if they stay fit. Also, apart from Amos, no account has been taken above of younger players like Mason, Wright, Whiteman, Beestin who may improve this season.

My glass is definitely half full 


Edit: Aplogies - as Rovers Alias points out I missed Alcock out of departures analysis - now amended, but my overall opinion of not much difference still held.

[DearneValleyRover]

Anderson was a replacement for Baudry last season as he was brought in to cover his injury so he is a direct replacement for him

[Dutch Uncle]

Anderson was a replacement for Baudry last season as he was brought in to cover his injury so he is a direct replacement for him

Maybe he was seen that way DVR, but in the theoretical squad analysis above comparing April/May with August, Anderson is present in both cases, so replaces no-one. However if you say only 3CBs are necessary (I personally would prefer to see 4, although maybe Luke can be seen as a 4th CB) then you could say our top 3 CBs are on a par. If we need 4 then we are weaker.

[silent majority]

Anderson was a replacement for Baudry last season as he was brought in to cover his injury so he is a direct replacement for him

Maybe he was seen that way DVR, but in the squad analysis above comparing April/May with August, Anderson is present in both cases, so replaces no-one. However if you say only 3CBs are necessary (I personally would prefer to see 4, although maybe Luke can be seen as a 4th CB) then you could say our top 3 CBs are on a par.

Is it fair to compare the end of one season with the beginning of another? After all we brought 2 CB's in during the January window to supplement the squad. Shouldn't we be comparing the beginning of last season with the start of this one?

[DearneValleyRover]

DU I would like to see us sign another centre half I don’t believe 3 is enough either but I don’t think you can count Anderson and Baudry as part of the same squad because if we hadn’t had the injuries to Wright and Baudry we wouldn’t have got him on loan last season he then got injured as well so the games in which they both appeared must have been few.