Corbyn's Conference Speech

[Ldr]

Let’s be realistic, neither main party is fit to govern

[Sprotyrover]

Let’s be realistic, neither main party is fit to govern

Agread

[BillyStubbsTears]

On economic matters, Labour's policies are bang in the mainstream of established economic theory. They are sensible and well supported by evidence.

The Tories' economic policies have been a f**king car crash for a decade. The Right used to have a strong body of economic theory to support its policies. Now it's all Voodoo and smoke & mirrors. They don't even understand how capitalism is supposed to work.

There really is no competition between the parties on the economics. Labour wins hands down. Some of the smarter Tories know that and they are shitting it.

Whether Labour's approach to foreign policy stops them ever getting into power is a different issue.

[Boomstick]

On economic matters, Labour's policies are bang in the mainstream of established economic theory. They are sensible and well supported by evidence.

The Tories' economic policies have been a f**king car crash for a decade. The Right used to have a strong body of economic theory to support its policies. Now it's all Voodoo and smoke & mirrors. They don't even understand how capitalism is supposed to work.

There really is no competition between the parties on the economics. Labour wins hands down. Some of the smarter Tories know that and they are shitting it.

Whether Labour's approach to foreign policy stops them ever getting into power is a different issue.

Ok, I'll bite.
Which of the smarter Tories know it and are shitting it ? Do you have any evidence to back up your statement ? 

[wilts rover]

In a risk of slipping over onto a different forum topic I thought this poll that came out yesterday was fascinating:

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1048223569883410432

2/3rds of people who voted leave in 2016 would vote tory in the next GE. Less than 1/5th would vote Labour.

That's your next election campaign there. How can Labour appeal to leave voters? Will those Tory voters desert the party if their idea of Brexit doesn't match with what it actually turns out to be?

[BillyStubbsTears]

On economic matters, Labour's policies are bang in the mainstream of established economic theory. They are sensible and well supported by evidence.

The Tories' economic policies have been a f**king car crash for a decade. The Right used to have a strong body of economic theory to support its policies. Now it's all Voodoo and smoke & mirrors. They don't even understand how capitalism is supposed to work.

There really is no competition between the parties on the economics. Labour wins hands down. Some of the smarter Tories know that and they are shitting it.

Whether Labour's approach to foreign policy stops them ever getting into power is a different issue.

Ok, I'll bite.
Which of the smarter Tories know it and are shitting it ? Do you have any evidence to back up your statement ? 

Use your brain. Why do you think, with no hint of this over the past 8 years, May suddenly announces last week that Austerity is over?

Back at the start of the 2017 Election campaign, she was still falling back on that stupid but powerful line that if we don't stick with Austerity...Greece. They'd peddled that one since 2010. It was always b*llocks, but it worked politically.

Now the tide is turning. Labour's economic policies have got a broadly supportive hearing from business. And they are addressing the core problems of our chronic underperformance.

And...whaddya know? Suddenly May totters onto the stage and says it's the end of Austerity.

You need to be lobotomised not to see the link.

[Boomstick]

On economic matters, Labour's policies are bang in the mainstream of established economic theory. They are sensible and well supported by evidence.

The Tories' economic policies have been a f**king car crash for a decade. The Right used to have a strong body of economic theory to support its policies. Now it's all Voodoo and smoke & mirrors. They don't even understand how capitalism is supposed to work.

There really is no competition between the parties on the economics. Labour wins hands down. Some of the smarter Tories know that and they are shitting it.

Whether Labour's approach to foreign policy stops them ever getting into power is a different issue.

Ok, I'll bite.
Which of the smarter Tories know it and are shitting it ? Do you have any evidence to back up your statement ? 

Use your brain. Why do you think, with no hint of this over the past 8 years, May suddenly announces last week that Austerity is over?

Back at the start of the 2017 Election campaign, she was still falling back on that stupid but powerful line that if we don't stick with Austerity...Greece. They'd peddled that one since 2010. It was always b*llocks, but it worked politically.

Now the tide is turning. Labour's economic policies have got a broadly supportive hearing from business. And they are addressing the core problems of our chronic underperformance.

And...whaddya know? Suddenly May totters onto the stage and says it's the end of Austerity.

You need to be lobotomised not to see the link.

So, again. Which Tories think labours economic policy is better?

[Sprotyrover]

On economic matters, Labour's policies are bang in the mainstream of established economic theory. They are sensible and well supported by evidence.

The Tories' economic policies have been a f**king car crash for a decade. The Right used to have a strong body of economic theory to support its policies. Now it's all Voodoo and smoke & mirrors. They don't even understand how capitalism is supposed to work.

There really is no competition between the parties on the economics. Labour wins hands down. Some of the smarter Tories know that and they are shitting it.

Whether Labour's approach to foreign policy stops them ever getting into power is a different issue.

Ok, I'll bite.
Which of the smarter Tories know it and are shitting it ? Do you have any evidence to back up your statement ? 

Use your brain. Why do you think, with no hint of this over the past 8 years, May suddenly announces last week that Austerity is over?

Back at the start of the 2017 Election campaign, she was still falling back on that stupid but powerful line that if we don't stick with Austerity...Greece. They'd peddled that one since 2010. It was always b*llocks, but it worked politically.

Now the tide is turning. Labour's economic policies have got a broadly supportive hearing from business. And they are addressing the core problems of our chronic underperformance.

And...whaddya know? Suddenly May totters onto the stage and says it's the end of Austerity.

You need to be lobotomised not to see the link.

So, again. Which Tories think labours economic policy is better?

So the Tory Government takes a look at the books and decides it's safe to end austerity how does that equate to them following Labours economic Poliicies?

[Boomstick]

It doesnt, he's talking bobbins again ! 😂

[BillyStubbsTears]

The ones who are saying that they are going to ditch their policies of the past decade and ape Labour.

It's not hard. If you engage your brain.

It's how politics always works. When you are scared that your opponent is controlling the agenda,you copy them.


What are you asking for? A senior Tory to go on the record saying "We've been wrong for 10 years and Corbyn is right"? You reckon politics works like that?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty.

But the books DON'T say that. The books say that we won't be running a structural balance until 2025. So, given that the sum of Austerity was to eliminate the structural deficit, and given that they've spent a decade telling  us we were going to shit  unless we eliminated the structural deficit, it's to think that the Tories would CHOOSE to ditch Austerity now.

Of course, if you don't actually engage with facts and just look for a pointless argument, you may well spout this sort of shite.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Oh aye. And if they reckoned they'd balanced the books and could end Austerity for that reason, don't you think the Chancellor might have mentioned it? Given that it's his area of responsibility.

But not a word from him about it. It was May who suddenly announced the End of Austerity.

But go on. Keep on spinning it how you want the world to be.

[bpoolrover]

While I found his speech very good the latest you gov poll has the tories 6 points ahead, which at this stage is Very surprising, is it simply people just don't like him and McDonnell and will vote anyone but them or something else?

[Boomstick]

The ones who are saying that they are going to ditch their policies of the past decade and ape Labour.

It's not hard. If you engage your brain.

It's how politics always works. When you are scared that your opponent is controlling the agenda,you copy them.


What are you asking for? A senior Tory to go on the record saying "We've been wrong for 10 years and Corbyn is right"? You reckon politics works like that?

Nope, but until they do it's still your overinflated opinion.

[wilts rover]

While I found his speech very good the latest you gov poll has the tories 6 points ahead, which at this stage is Very surprising, is it simply people just don't like him and McDonnell and will vote anyone but them or something else?

I posted about this earlier up the page blackpool. It's still Brexit. The polling company found that more Leavers would vote Tory than Remainers would vote Labour.

[wilts rover]

Errr you do all know that May said austerity was over 18 months ago after she lost the election she won. She wasn't right then....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/austerity-is-over-may-tells-tories-vvhrjk0tj

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-austerity-brexit-plans-uk-leave-eu-hard-soft-latest-tax-cuts-welfare-benefit-a7787001.html

[albie]

BST,

The shadow banking system was well understood within the financial sector.
The greater tragedy is that the development of shadow banking was a consequence of policy failures.

At the time, Brown was dedicated to the idea of co-existence of New Labour with the City. The view was that to be a success, Labour needed to be an acceptable managerial option to the Tories. The liberation of the City from effective regulatory controls was a part of this charm offensive.

Needless to say, it did not work, and Brown was too far up their fundament to get out of the way in time to avoid the financial bums rush.

The real problem is the response after 2008. Instead of wholesale reform of the banking sector, we have reverted to the default assumptions of privatised banking practices.

Iceland took a more robust approach;
https://theconversation.com/how-to-deal-with-the-next-financial-crisis-take-some-lessons-from-iceland-104354

No reports of people eating rats as a result.
Same old story here.

[bpoolrover]

While I found his speech very good the latest you gov poll has the tories 6 points ahead, which at this stage is Very surprising, is it simply people just don't like him and McDonnell and will vote anyone but them or something else?

I posted about this earlier up the page blackpool. It's still Brexit. The polling company found that more Leavers would vote Tory than Remainers would vote Labour.

.  Thanks wilts I hadn't seen your other post, you're probably right

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie

I couldn't agree more that the reforms haven't been instigated since the crash.

But your comments on Brown are fatuous (and all too familiar from the new Corbynistas unfortunately).

Your comments about he shadow banking system are nonsense. No one really understood the risks that were being taken. No one even understood how big the global shadow banking system was until years after the crash and no one seriously can claim to have predicted what happened. Admittedly, several people DO make that claim but their cases never stack up.

And the Iceland comments just put the cherry on the daft cake. Iceland could, and did get away with letting THEIR banks fail. Because THEIR banks didn't lose a systemic risk to the entire global financial system. That wasn't the case with the UK or the US banks. Or German,  French, Spanish, Italian banks. Which is why all those countries, one way or another, bailed out their banks.

The Iceland story is a stupid one to extrapolate to eco omies and banks that were orders of magnitude larger. But it's done regularly by folk on the Left who want to write off everything that anyone on the Centre Left did as some sort of plot to keep the bankers in clover. I would say it's very silly. But it's not. It's actually a very dangerous re-writing of history.

EDIT. I may have misunderstood your meaning about Iceland. I assumed you were talking about them letting banks go bust. If you're really talking about the robust way in which they have shackled their banks since then, I fully agree with you. But that's nothing to do with what I was saying about how we'd have been eating rats if the global banking system had collapsed (and it came within days of doing so) in 2008. The two are different issues.

[albie]

BST,

The shadow banking system was a product of the withdrawal of regulation in the US.  The danger of over extension into sub-prime housing was flagged as early as 2006...nothing happened.

Brown (as Chancellor, as well as later as PM) sought to follow the lead of the Federal Reserve on this side, and looked to influence the European banking system on the same model.

The point about injecting liquidity into the banks as an emergency measure was to protect the wider economy from the predatory instincts of the banking sector.

Reform of the regulations was the necessary change to the banking market to revise the investment strategy in the future.

Both interventions require the other to take effect. Bailing out the banks to then allow them to repeat the scam is about as sensible as pissing down your own leg.

Iceland is important because they have made the case for liability. Bankers who take the same actions will in future face consequences. They have personal "skin in the game", and so will manage probabilities accordingly.

Your point about the UK banks being much bigger is correct, but that also implies the larger consequence of getting the response proportionate and direct...neither of which have happened.

It is worth considering who was exposed by the failure of the sector. Are we looking to the postion of institutional investors hunting profit taking positions, or small investors with their life savings?
It might be possible to safeguard the latter without parachuting the former away from their own greed. Perhaps one size fits all was not the only option.

Conventional wisdom talks about the value of the financial industry in the UK, but consideration of the counter argument is helpful;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/costing-country-britains-finance-curse/

Anyway, business as usual in Merrie Old England.
Rat pie anyone?

[wing commander]

    Why are labour struggling so badly???

    Lets face it even a staunch tory like me has been disappointed with the performance of this administration..It has to be one of the most unpopular administrations that I can remember..So Labour should be flying in the polls mirroring Blair and new labours performance prior to election.Right now they shouldn't have anything to beat!!!

   Yet labour still find themselves adrift in the polls and I'm going to give my reasons why.Billy wont agree with most of them but facts are facts and the electorate are just not buying it..

Identity??? Labour seems to have a problem appealing to its party membership and the average voter at the same time..The party membership is staunch socialist, where as the average voter is more centre left..The membership gives the impression of controlling the party and it's senior officials views are too left wing with the average Labour voter needed to win...

Brexit?? Now the Tory's have made a right mess of this granted but despite some posts on here,the British people don't quite know were Labour stands on it tbh,The people who voted leave but support Labour are torn as they don't like the wishy washy statements from the senior leadership depending on what suits..

Foreign Policy....This is a bigger factor than most people believe I think..Corbyn is a dove,not just any old Dove but a big fluffy one with sad eyes...That doesn't sit well with voters.Brittain has a history of standing up for what we believe in and fighting for it..And people are worried that he will just give up places like Gibraltar and the Falklands at a stroke of a pen,They also worry that we will be seen as a soft touch and will lose our place on the top table of world power..

Economy..Now this is a bone of contention,the tory's have failed to bring down the debt that we have and even Austerity hasn't achieved this..Yet Labour keep announcing all these spending plans which they say are fully funded but people are struggling to believe it.They remember the last Labour administration and how spending spiralled,they remember the note in the drawer mocking the incoming Tory government that there was nothing left in the bank...And they don't believe them...

  Now I respect everybody's opinion whoever they vote for and some can give fancy rhetoric on why they are correct,but it's not people like that who will get Labour enough votes to get into government..It's your average voter who isn't interested in going that deep into every subject.They vote with there gut feeling,and I believe the reasons above are why they wont get into power with the senior leadership they have....I'll get my tory tin hat on guys..lol


   

[i_ateallthepies]

I'm a centre-left voter, always have and always will be but you pretty much have summed up the way I see it, wing commander.

[wilts rover]

All very valid points but as I said in my earlier post - according to yougov it is down to Brexit.


https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1048223569883410432

Labour have strong support among people, over 50%, of those who voted Remain but are only polling at 17% with those who voted Leave. In contrast 66% of those who voted Leave said they would vote Tory.

That has always been Corbyn's dilema. How can he appeal to Leave voters when most of his party want to remain in the EU?

In contrast what does 'Leave' mean to the Leave voters and will those who say they will currently vote Tory desert the party if their idea of Brexit doesn't match with what it actually turns out to be?

[Sprotyrover]

The average Labour voter has views which are slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan in relation to benefits, access to social housing and Health care. They live in areas over run by Eastern European workers who they perceive to have a deal from the state than themselves.
If you don't agree with me get yersens down to Page Hall, Eastwood or Hexthorpe.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The average Sprotyrover spouts b*llocks. If you don't agree with me read the above post.

[roversdude]

Whilst he deserves credit for sticking to his views unfortunately I personally could never vote for him/Labour at the moment

[bobjimwilly]

rgearding brexit, I don't see why Labour don't use Corbyn's anti-europe stance to their favour in pulling (moderate) brexit voters over? He can be honest and say he would have voted the same as them, he sees the failings of the EU, like them, and believes Britain can thrive outside of the EU, like them. HOWEVER he can also see, like them, that the Tories have completed messed up Brexit and to leave at his point would be a bad decision for the UK.

[DonnyOsmond]

rgearding brexit, I don't see why Labour don't use Corbyn's anti-europe stance to their favour in pulling (moderate) brexit voters over? He can be honest and say he would have voted the same as them, he sees the failings of the EU, like them, and believes Britain can thrive outside of the EU, like them. HOWEVER he can also see, like them, that the Tories have completed messed up Brexit and to leave at his point would be a bad decision for the UK.

He spent ages getting a massive youth movement in the last election who for the majority are against Brexit, it'd be daft to alienate them.

[bobjimwilly]

He spent ages getting a massive youth movement in the last election who for the majority are against Brexit, it'd be daft to alienate them.

Fair point. The youth vote is an interesting point too regarding a 2nd referendum vote, as 1.5m more people have turned 18 since the last vote, and 1.3m have died!
That fact alone would point to a remain victory, and maybe also the correct result - should the votes of the dead matter more than those who are alive and have to live with any consequences?

[wing commander]

  The democratic process which we live by was laid out at the time..The country voted,the article was triggered and that should be that..Unless you believe in the SNP policy of keep asking for a referendum until you get the result you personally want..!!