Solution to VAR

[since-1969]

When I decision is under VAR , a clock should appear on the screen set at 30 secs if there isn’t a decision by the time gets to zero then the disputed discussion should stand even it’s a goal or penalty award . Too much time is being lost in games killing the momentum and the celebrating of goals . If it’s clear and obvious then it should go to the clock !

[no eyed deer]

Best solution...Don't watch the premier league !!

[BillyStubbsTears]

If it ever comes in at a level that we play at, that's me done with going to matches.

THE most stupid innovation in football in my lifetime. It sucks out what is the core of the experience of being at the match - that instant of elation or deflation.

It's designed for armchair fans who can sit on the edge of their seats watching the replays. But that's where the money is at the top...

[niteowler]

Best solution to VAR is to cancel it altogether , but it wont happen as the armchair glory hunters would have nothing to discuss.

[Chris Black come back]

Least interesting discussion since last time someone raised transfer spending. Worst element of VAR is that there is so much discussion around VAR.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's an unarguable reason why VAR is flawed for offside decisions.

It's based on the premise that there is a single instant of time when the ball is played, and that the cameras can identify precisely where every player is at that instant.

Big problem there.

There ISN'T a single instant at which any ball is ever played. The ball and the players' anatomy and footware are elastic. So contact between the ball and the player is not instantaneous. I'd estimate that contact will be smeared out over a few milliseconds, perhaps 10-20milliseconds. That's much faster than the blink of an eye, but a player running at full tilt will move 10cm in 10ms. And the VAR officials are claiming to be able to make judgements far finer than that, like the ridiculous one with Son for Spurs today.

It's fundamentally flawed concept, which gives an incorrect impression of accuracy and certainty, at the same time as destroying the spirit of the game.

[mjg]

Solution to VAR put it were it belongs , in the rubbish bin

[mjg]

I don’t watch any game with it in . If it arrives in our league I will not go and watch . It totally spoils the game

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Here's an unarguable reason why VAR is flawed for offside decisions.

It's based on the premise that there is a single instant of time when the ball is played, and that the cameras can identify precisely where every player is at that instant.

Big problem there.

There ISN'T a single instant at which any ball is ever played. The ball and the players' anatomy and forward are elastic. So contact between the ball and the player is not instantaneous. I'd estimate that contact will be smeared out over a few milliseconds, perhaps 10-20milliseconds. That's my h faster than the blink of an eye, but a player running at full tilt will move 10cm in 10ms. And the VAR officials are claiming to be able to make judgements far finer than that, like the ridiculous one with Son for Spurs today.

It's fundamentally flawed concept, which gives an incorrect impression of accuracy and certainty, at the same time as destroying the spirit of the game.

Solution to this, use the cricket concept of umpires call. If it's really close the on field decision stands.

[IDM]

I don’t  get the “I won’t go and watch” thing..

First of all, if DRFC are competing in a fixture which warrants using VAR then we are playing at a higher level or in a decent cup round.

Secondly, there are plenty of inconsistencies and controversies with crap referees and cheating players already, so having one more detail
To debate won’t make much difference.

I was at a women’s World Cup match this summer and VAR was used but didn’t spoil the game.

Had we had VAR yesterday then the foul on Gomes should have been changed to a penalty..

[GazLaz]

They brought in VAR to ensure they get more decisions correct. That’s happened. I don’t see the issue. It’s not going to get every decision 100% right and I think some of the laws don’t make sense but I don’t think it’s a bad thing. The game is that fast and athletic these days that the refs do need help.

[RoversAlias]

My main issue has been with the application of certain laws. The new offensive handball rule is unfair to me and against the spirit of the game, and some of these marginal offsides are pathetic. Like Son yesterday for Moura's goal. If it is that tight and the on-pitch decision is a goal, then leave it be.

VAR itself is good. It is how it is applied by the human officials and the protocols put in place for it.

I still think they should do it "Manager's Challenge" style like the NFL.

[i_ateallthepies]

I agree, use the cricket concept, it should only be used to prevent the clear howler decisions.  Those that are blatantly wrong.  Anything else, umpire's call.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Gaz/IDM.

It's because it destroys what the essence of football is.

It's about those split second moments when everything changes.

Take this example.

Fran Tierney's goal at Stoke. Within a second of that going in, me and our kid were hugging and punching each other and we fell down three rows of seats. That is a moment I'll never forget. It was the MOMENT that mattered.

Now picture that, with a 90 second wait to make sure that Blundell kept the ball in, and Tierney wasn't offside.

Imagine Brentford. Imagine how that moment changes when VAR has to be invoked to check whether Sullivan stayed on his line, whether there was encroachment at the penalty, and whether Coppinger was in front of Paynter when the pass came in.

Off you trot and have a pie and a pint and come back in a few minutes to be told whether you can celebrate.

Thing is for me, football's not about what division you will be in next year or whether every single decision is scientifically proven to be correct.

It's about the instant reaction in the moment. And VAR is systematically destroying that.

It's an unnecessary imposition to satisfy people who fundamentally don't get what the heart and soul if the game is.

[IDM]

I understand what you mean BST. 

If we were to “score” a critical goal in a VAR game where in the movement there was a close potential offside or handball etc, then because we know VAR is there, that moment shifts..

I certainly don’t think VAR is perfect and could be tweaked to be better..

Then again the current offside way of delaying raising the flag is quite frustrating..

Also, having something overturned by VAR and the delay, is no worse than getting a penalty at a critical time in a game, then missing the bas**rd.!!

[RoversAlias]

It hasn't stopped that instantaneous reaction though. Look at Man City against Spurs last season. Guardiola was even asked afterwards if this would cause him not to celebrate "in the moment" from then on and he replied that of course he would still have that natural reaction.

It's no different than a goal being disallowed afterwards for an offside or foul. I have instinctively glanced at the linesman when we score to see if there was an offside for years because of exactly that.

[Superspy]

It's one of those rare occasions where I'm disagreeing with BST. I refuse to believe that an entire crowd of people will wait to start celebrating pending a VAR review...and I'm yet to see a game (starting with the World Cup last year) where it has happened.

In practice it seems more like...
- Everybody celebrates instantly like they always do
- Then the ref signals for var and things go a bit quiet and tense after the initial celebration
- The decision is made and somebody celebrates again (whoever comes off best in the decision)

If the argument of a delayed celebration holds up, why does everybody celebrate when a penalty goes in, knowing that it may have to be retaken under the current laws? Why did the Posh fans go mental yesterday when they thought they'd scored, without checking for the Lino's flag first? Human nature is to celebrate what you see happen in front of you. If anything it adds to the drama for me, and I fully believe it's a good thing. That's not to say it's perfect of course, but I'm with Gaz on this one.

And while I was typing all of this RA has said it in a much less wordy way 

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS/RA.

It's a matter of degree.

In the overwhelming number of cases, refs and linesmen make decisions immediately. When a goal goes in, even as I'm jumping in the air, I'm glancing at them and you know straightaway if it's a goal or not. I rarely ever end up screaming and cheering for a goal that is disallowed (1). So that does not in any way detract from the elation/dejection of the moment. One of the most corrosive issues with VAR is that there's no immediacy of even knowing if a decision is going to be investigated. In that fraction of a second as the ball hits the net, you have no idea whether someone in a back room is going to be analysing and deciding on the validity. That inevitably would make your (well, MY, at any rate) reaction less visceral. It has to.

(1) For the record, I was out of my seat and punching the air when Coops scuffed that early shot yesterday from Taylor's cross. From my seat, it looked like he'd hit it perfectly and it was arrowing in. I felt a reight bell end when I turned round and the keeper's walking round the box with the ball in his hands.

[GazLaz]

Gaz/IDM.

It's because it destroys what the essence of football is.

It's about those split second moments when everything changes.

Take this example.

Fran Tierney's goal at Stoke. Within a second of that going in, me and our kid were hugging and punching each other and we fell down three rows of seats. That is a moment I'll never forget. It was the MOMENT that mattered.

Now picture that, with a 90 second wait to make sure that Blundell kept the ball in, and Tierney wasn't offside.

Imagine Brentford. Imagine how that moment changes when VAR has to be invoked to check whether Sullivan stayed on his line, whether there was encroachment at the penalty, and whether Coppinger was in front of Paynter when the pass came in.

Off you trot and have a pie and a pint and come back in a few minutes to be told whether you can celebrate.

Thing is for me, football's not about what division you will be in next year or whether every single decision is scientifically proven to be correct.

It's about the instant reaction in the moment. And VAR is systematically destroying that.

It's an unnecessary imposition to satisfy people who fundamentally don't get what the heart and soul if the game is.

Surely when the goal goes in you celebrate like you usually do, then celebrate again when it’s confirmed! Double bubble!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Maybe it's how I'm wired up Gaz. I don't see the point in celebrating a goal if there's a strong chance it's going to be reviewed. And celebrations on seeing a video screen telling you you have scored, or the opposition hasn't scored are inevitably less visceral than an immediate reaction at the moment the action happens.

[IDM]

I still like my penalty analogy.. look at our recent game vs Rotherham.. there was a similar delay between the penalty being given and how we felt about that, and Whitman scoring, than there would be for a VAR call..

[BillyStubbsTears]

No IDM. That's totally different. There's the moment when the ball hits the back of the net or doesn't. I instinctively have a different reaction to that than I would to seeing a decision on a video screen.

[IDM]

Even so BST, I do think there would be more “moments” to enjoy that don’t involve VAR than do, in any one game..

Might have to agree to disagree on this..

[RoversAlias]

I do take your point BST but I think SuperSpy got it right when he mentioned human nature.

The way VAR is communicated to fans does needs to be improved. I do not know why they don't outline it over the PA/tannoy at games. Every single ground has one and there should be a scripted protocol to follow. "Goal under review for possible infringement", "Decision: Goal stands, no infringement" or "Decision: Goal disallowed, offside/foul confirmed against #10" or whatever.

Mic up the refs, publicly. They do it in Rugby and the NFL, it isn't difficult.

Anyway, it isn't going to stop me celebrating. A shame when it gets called back sometimes, like both goals chalked off in the Leicester/Spurs game yesterday, but again this has already been playing out for years with late reversals for offside or a foul or whatever in the build-up.

[WheatleyRover]

It also gives the opposition a boost if a goal is then chalked off

[RedJ]

I do take your point BST but I think SuperSpy got it right when he mentioned human nature.

The way VAR is communicated to fans does needs to be improved. I do not know why they don't outline it over the PA/tannoy at games. Every single ground has one and there should be a scripted protocol to follow. "Goal under review for possible infringement", "Decision: Goal stands, no infringement" or "Decision: Goal disallowed, offside/foul confirmed against #10" or whatever.

Mic up the refs, publicly. They do it in Rugby and the NFL, it isn't difficult.

Anyway, it isn't going to stop me celebrating. A shame when it gets called back sometimes, like both goals chalked off in the Leicester/Spurs game yesterday, but again this has already been playing out for years with late reversals for offside or a foul or whatever in the build-up.

They have started saying over the PA systems and showing on the score boards when there's a VAR review tbf.

[RoversAlias]

I've seen the scoreboard stuff but hadn't noticed anything over the PA yet. Good then, because one of people's biggest gripes is the lack of clear communication of decisions.

[RedJ]

Yeah it's difficult to hear over the commentators blathering on but I've noticed them saying stuff about a review going on a few times on Sky. I think the reason they don't actually show what's being looked at is to do with not being allowed (is that an actual rule or) to show controversial stuff on screen?

[Pliskin]

I agree with BST.

I've said all this before, but as a football fan I think that there are elements of the game far too important to be worth sacrificing in the name of "getting the decisions right".

VAR isn't for us. It's for pundit types who use 20 different camera angles and forensic level analysis to obsess about every minute detail; arms being in unnatural positions (whatever that means), or whether someone's armpit was in an offside position.

Not content with simply doing this as distant spectators, they now want to actually influence the outcome of football matches with this nonsense. Forcing us fans to put what I think makes being a football fan great, those spontaneous moments of raw emotion, on hold while they indulge themselves. And maybe they'll find a reason to rob us of the moment entirely.

I struggle to see how VAR can improve the enjoyment of the game for any fan.

The best solution for VAR is to chuck it in the bin before it becomes even more intrusive and entangled within the game. And it will, because if "getting decisions right" is sacrosanct, then there's no logical argument against more of it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pliskin.

Bang on.

The imperfection is part of the appeal of football.

And as I've said, VAR is often NOT producing the level of clinical,scientific accuracy of decision that is claimed for it. That decision on Son yesterday - claiming that they got that unambiguously correct, that there was an objectively correct decision to be made and they made it (which is PRECISELY what the PL's line was yesterday) is simply wrong.

They delayed the match for three minutes to make a decision which no-one can possibly say was correct!