Tory policies

[wilts rover]

Ah the incredible shrinking NI trick.

First make an eyecatching promise to a load of working class voters for a good pr opportunity. Then later release details of a somewhat watered down actual policy. And they think this lot are on the side of the working man/woman!!


Some hasty revisions have been made to Boris Johnson’s equally hasty announcement of a national insurance (NI) contributions cut (see 2.11pm).

At first, the prime minister said the Tories were going to increase the threshold at which most workers begin paying NI to £12,000.

Later, speaking to ITV News, he said the initial increase would actually only be to £9,500, while a subsequent rise to a new figure of £12,500 was described as an “ambition”. That first change to NI, he wrongly claimed, would represent a “£500 cut for every working person”.

The latest version of the policy released by Tory HQ this evening is a lifting of the NI threshold from £8,632 to £9,500 in 2020/21, which the party now says will actually only be worth £100 per worker – or less than £2 per week – and an “ultimate ambition” to increase it to £12,500 at some point in the future.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/nov/20/general-election-poverty-and-pledges-to-the-fore-after-tv-debate-live-news

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I suspect he shouldn't have said it but it's not a bad policy actually, bringing it in to sync with income tax is a good idea as it's too complicated for many.  I understand it but I bet  a lot do not.  What I would do is bring that lower level up and probably increase the threshold for the reduced rate slightly to make some of the gap up.

The full manifesto is the key really to the detail though isn't it?  You're all very quick to slam the Tories changes but no talk about Labour mystically dropping polices from their recent conference or the Lib Dems ever changing tact on referendum or not, I suppose that's alright as it's not the Tories?

[SydneyRover]

A couple of obvious things bfyp apart from you supporting an inveterate liar and a party that's got so much work to do because they've wrecked the economy, I personally struggle to believe the tory's will do anything promised following the election and as far as labour's policy is concerned no one has seen it yet. 

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

A couple of obvious things bfyp apart from you supporting an inveterate liar and a party that's got so much work to do because they've wrecked the economy, I personally struggle to believe the tory's will do anything promised following the election and as far as labour's policy is concerned no one has seen it yet. 

Sydney, a labour mp was on tv this morning saying they wont deliver everything that's in it. If that isnt evidence for you I dont know what is.

To correct you I am not a tory supporter, I am yet to decide who I'll vote for.  But I find the unbalanced debate incorrect.

[SydneyRover]

I apologise if I've interpreted your posting as support/voting for the Tories but I've heard this 'I am only here because I want a balanced debate' before.

The main and only reason the debate is unbalanced is that the Tories are an unmitigated disaster on any level and I would have thought it wouldn't much investigation to rule out voting for them, whomever you decide to vote for. What more could they do to wreck the UK?

You have the same freedom to report anything positive you can find about Johnson and Tories just as bb, bp or anyone. Knock yourself out. 

If you take the release of a party's policy as drawing a line under their past 'in government' record then you should  in all fairness do it for them all.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Christ Al-f**king-mighty.

https://www.channel4.com/news/michael-gove-interview-on-truth-lies-and-brexit

What an unmitigated Kitson this excuse for a man is.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That is one of the most frightening political interviews I have ever seen. That's a journalist asking Gove about issues of objective truth, and in response being told he is conducting a biased polemic.

That issue about hospitals. The Govt has announced it will build 6 new ones and spend £3m each on another 34 (that's about 1% of the cost of a new infirmary). Johnson has announced several times that they are building 40 new hospitals.

That journalist asks Gove to state clearly if they are building 6 or 40. Gove accuses him of not being objective and using a Labour attack line.

Do you not see how dangerous this is? If we lose the ability and the will to hold politicians to account for this denial of objective truth?

[SydneyRover]

If only all journo's were prepared to persist, reasonably and politely till they get the truth or their subject buries themselves, it sounded like Gove pitching for prince Andrew's job, they don't use the same advisor surely?   

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's a journalist, from the right wing of the Tory party,giving his two pennorth.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TomKibasi/status/1197256777844301824

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I apologise if I've interpreted your posting as support/voting for the Tories but I've heard this 'I am only here because I want a balanced debate' before.

The main and only reason the debate is unbalanced is that the Tories are an unmitigated disaster on any level and I would have thought it wouldn't much investigation to rule out voting for them, whomever you decide to vote for. What more could they do to wreck the UK?

You have the same freedom to report anything positive you can find about Johnson and Tories just as bb, bp or anyone. Knock yourself out. 

If you take the release of a party's policy as drawing a line under their past 'in government' record then you should  in all fairness do it for them all.

I would say until perhaps 2 years ago I'd have stated myself a tory, not now.

There are plenty of policies that I like from them so far;

1. Cut to income taxes.
2. Adjustments to national insurance.
3. the investment in police/NHS etc - i also like this from labour's point of view you'll note.
4. They have a clear Brexit policy that I support.

That's just for starters.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

Hang on.

I'm also in favour of everyone of those policies.

In isolation.

But here's the problem. How do you cut income from taxes and increase current spending?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The £9bn a year EU contribution is a good start....

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

There's no economic analysis that says we won't lose far more than that through lower economic activity.

It's simply not serious to see Brexit as an economic positive.

[albie]

In a new low, the Tories have set up a fake Labour website.

From the FT:

"Visit labourmanifesto.co.uk and you will find a Conservative-branded site that criticizes Labour’s policy platform for its stances on Brexit, taxation and further referendums. Unlike the row over factcheckUK, this clearly states it is a Conservative website – although it is branded in Labour party colours.

The Tories have also been buying up search results to try and make labourmanifesto.co.uk the top result when you search “labour”. It is appearing on some Google returns".

So the big Tory policy is to weaponise Google to spread fake news about the Labour manifesto......utterly shameless!

[Ldr]

How is it fake if it's clearly identified as a conservative site?

[Ldr]

Don't get dragged down the fake news road you are trying to condemn. We can all do it. How about "Gutter Press as Corbyn hardliner accuses legitimate website of being fake" equally absurd but as truthful as you have just been. Don't on both sides let hatred and blanket loyalties get in the way of judgement

[Hounslowrover]

Just watched the Gove interview, extremely worrying, should be compulsory viewing.

[BillyStubbsTears]

LDR.

It's marginal gains. If just 1 in 50 people who see it don't notice the fainter writing saying it's a Conservative Party website, then that's job done.

And you cannot look at this in isolation. It's part of a pattern of deliberate deception. In the last few weeks they have.

1) Published a faked BBC website, purporting to show the BBC saying they are increasing school spending by twice as much as they actually are.

2) Doctored a video of Keir Starmer being interviewed about Labour's Brexit plans to make it look as though he was unable to answer simple questions, when in fact he'd answered them fluently and in detail.

3) Changed their Twitter feed front page to make it look as though they were an independent fact checker during the Leaders Debate.

4) Now this with the Labour manifesto.


And this is all being masterminded by the lying bas**rd who micro-targetted people who had been specifically profiled as being gullible to lies in the 2016 Ref campaign, and sent a tsunami of lies [1] to their Facebook feeds in the last few days to get them fired up to go and vote Leave.

Allow this to become the new standard and we're f**ked. Utterly f**ked. Because it's about denying the idea of objective truth in politics. It's then not a question of who has the best policies. It's who is the best at spreading disinformation. That is a terrifying prospect because it's how democracies fall apart.

[1] And I MEAN a tsunami. Cummings is on record as saying they sent 1.5billion videos to 2-3million Facebook accounts in the last week of the campaign. Videos pushing the £350m claim (lie), that 80million Turks were about to join the EU and get free movement to the UK (lie) that the EU is responsible for culling polar bears (lie) and more.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just watched the Gove interview, extremely worrying, should be compulsory viewing.

Watch it again. As he gets more and more bogged down in defending the indefensible, he does this stress thing that I've seen him do before. He repeatedly rocks up on his toes to increase his height. Over and over and over again. It's bizarre behaviour and it's body language that screams out that he is uncomfortable.

Just go and watch it. Starts from about 2:50 in.

[Ldr]

LDR.

It's marginal gains. If just 1 in 50 people who see it don't notice the fainter writing saying it's a Conservative Party website, then that's job done.

And you cannot look at this in isolation. It's part of a pattern of deliberate deception. In the last few weeks they have.

1) Published a faked BBC website, purporting to show the BBC saying they are increasing school spending by twice as much as they actually are.

2) Doctored a video of Keir Starmer being interviewed about Labour's Brexit plans to make it look as though he was unable to answer simple questions, when in fact he'd answered them fluently and in detail.

3) Changed their Twitter feed front page to make it look as though they were an independent fact checker during the Leaders Debate.

4) Now this with the Labour manifesto.


And this is all being masterminded by the lying bas**rd who micro-targetted people who had been specifically profiled as being gullible to lies in the 2016 Ref campaign, and sent a tsunami of lies [1] to their Facebook feeds in the last few days to get them fired up to go and vote Leave.

Allow this to become the new standard and we're f**ked. Utterly f**ked. Because it's about denying the idea of objective truth in politics. It's then not a question of who has the best policies. It's who is the best at spreading disinformation. That is a terrifying prospect because it's how democracies fall apart.

[1] And I MEAN a tsunami. Cummings is on record as saying they sent 1.5billion videos to 2-3million Facebook accounts in the last week of the campaign. Videos pushing the £350m claim (lie), that 80million Turks were about to join the EU and get free movement to the UK (lie) that the EU is responsible for culling polar bears (lie) and more.

Appreciated, doesn't make it fake though, disingenuous maybe but not fake. No different to pamphlets coming through the door just a different medium.

[BillyStubbsTears]

LDR.

No. Every one of those examples are intended to deceive. In the case of this most recent one, in two ways - firstly by re-directing people who are genuinely searching for Labour's Manifesto, to a site that gives the Tory party's take on Labour's Manifesto. Secondly, it's the marginal gains thing. Some people will not notice the (deliberately less prominent) text that says it is a Tory party website. Some people will be deceived by this. Not many perhaps, but that's how marginal gains works - the accumulation of lots of micro-advantages. if this gets some people deceived, it has done its job.

Last thing is. If this wasn't going to give you a benefit, why on earth do it?

[Ldr]

Again I'm not debating the morality of it, just saying it's not fake because you don't agree with it

[albie]

Ldr,

The clue is in the name of the site.

Why would you call it LabourManifesto.co.uk, unless you were intending to intercept traffic looking for the real site on Google?

It is impersonation to exploit the search engine, and as such it is fake, and as our legal friends would say "apt to mislead". No-one entering that search is looking for a Tory site, are they?

It points up another glaring inadequacy in the electoral rules, where new exploits allow gaming the system to deceive voters. People should not need to double check on the accuracy of online material because a vested interest is seeking to cheat.

[Ldr]

Again it doesn't make it fake

[Ldr]

It clearly states a conservative site, therefore not fake Albie. Disingenuous but not fake

[BillyStubbsTears]

It clearly states a conservative site, therefore not fake Albie. Disingenuous but not fake

What about the other 3 examples I gave?

On its own, I'd have laughed this one off. But it doesn't exist on its own. It's clearly part of a systematic strategy to lie and deceive in a way we have never seen in UK politics. Don't you find that extremely worrying?

EDIT.
Correction. We've never seen it in a General Election. We did see a systematic strategy of lying and deceiving voters by Cummings in the 2016 Ref campaign.

[albie]

This is part of a wider "Digital Shitposting" strategy.

Basically, any stunt  which allows the Conservative party to divert from policy, and get everyone talking about belief, identity and tactics.

Erode people’s confidence to judge what is true and what is not, and the Tories think they can reduce this election to a single issue: get Brexit done.
 
In the avalanche of disinformation, the Tories believe this is the one line that can have an impact.
Everything else, campaign strategists will hope, can be reduced to noise and lies.

If you can obscure what is true and promote what is not, some votes can be won from those who will not look further. The more "viral" the message, the greater the reach.

It is a direct transfer from both Trump and the Leave campaign....disregard the truth and vote for identity.
Expect it to ramp up before Dec 12!

[bobjimwilly]

I'd argue the website's main aim was to top the google search rankings. To try and stop some people finding the actual manifesto.

[wilts rover]

Christ Al-f**king-mighty.

https://www.channel4.com/news/michael-gove-interview-on-truth-lies-and-brexit

What an unmitigated Kitson this excuse for a man is.

The bad news being that was not the worst interview by a Tory politician posted online today.

That prize surely has to go to Priti Patel claiming that the government was not responsible for government policies that have led to a massive rise in poverty levels for ordinary people:

https://twitter.com/BBCNWT/status/1197464428935045123

Although it is pushed hard by Liz Truss attacking Labour's house building announcements by not knowing how many of the 200000 starter homes the Tories had promised to build in their 2015 manifesto they had completed (spoiler alert - its 0)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/liz-truss-flounders-shes-grilled-20929099

[Ldr]

I'd argue the website's main aim was to top the google search rankings. To try and stop some people finding the actual manifesto.

I'd 100% agree, doesn't make it fake though which is my point.