Looking like a perfect storm for Labour

[drfchound]

Very disrespectful.

[Not Now Kato]

It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.

Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.

Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.

Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.

We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.

As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks

Absolute and utter bullshit!
 
My father, 97 years old had a serious fall.  Taken by paramedics/ambulance to DRI A&E.  Wheeled into a cold anteroom, (ambulance entrance to the hospital), where the paramedics stood with him waiting for over an hour before he was finally admitted due to the number of people on trollies in front of him.  Then left on a trolley waiting for a doctor to do the preliminary examination for ages before finally admitting him. No prioritisation whatsoever! Just taking his turn in the queue!
 
The treatment Dad got after that was first class and I've no complaints whatsoever, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is utter bullshit.  Unless you're fudging the figures!
 
Cant fault the paramedics, can't fault the treatment Dad got in hospital, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is so far from reality as to be absurd. And that's only one example - I've seen  very young children, blood running down their faces waiting their turn. My Farther-in-Law clearly having a heart attack left waiting in a cubicle and me having to chase doctors to help him!  Prioritisation? my arse!

[bpoolrover]

Bit disrespectful Sydney at least be gracious in defeat, ldr is giving his professional opinion

[Not Now Kato]

Bit disrespectful Sydney at least be gracious in defeat, ldr is giving his professional opinion

Not very professional based on my experiences.

[SydneyRover]

Is this the same guy telling us an oxygen mask was a drip and that the NHS is not being privatised?

My comment about full emergency departments being full because there is nowhere else for people to go is commonsense you don't need to be an expert to see that.

[drfchound]

It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.

Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.

Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.

Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.

We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.

As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks

Absolute and utter bullshit!
 
My father, 97 years old had a serious fall.  Taken by paramedics/ambulance to DRI A&E.  Wheeled into a cold anteroom, (ambulance entrance to the hospital), where the paramedics stood with him waiting for over an hour before he was finally admitted due to the number of people on trollies in front of him.  Then left on a trolley waiting for a doctor to do the preliminary examination for ages before finally admitting him. No prioritisation whatsoever! Just taking his turn in the queue!
 
The treatment Dad got after that was first class and I've no complaints whatsoever, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is utter bullshit.  Unless you're fudging the figures!
 
Cant fault the paramedics, can't fault the treatment Dad got in hospital, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is so far from reality as to be absurd. And that's only one example - I've seen  very young children, blood running down their faces waiting their turn. My Farther-in-Law clearly having a heart attack left waiting in a cubicle and me having to chase doctors to help him!  Prioritisation? my arse!

Kato, with respect to you and your father, although he was undoubtedly injured and in need of treatment there may well have been people who were treated before him because they were in need of treatment more urgently than him.
The professionals at the hospital make the decisions and inevitably there will be people who are left with an axe to grind.
Had your dad been in a life threatening condition then I feel sure that he would have been rushed through more quickly.

[Ldr]

Cheers hound, as the other person may suspect I'm not clinically based and they are correct to suggest that ae attendance volumes are symptomatic of people not getting help elsewhere, some of that is indeed down to unavailability but a significant proportion is ae being culturally seen as a one stop shop where  111 or a walk in centre would be more suited. NNK I am dismayed at your experience and offer my sympathy you and your family but bear in mind you in those situations would not be seeing the patients been seen and their issues. As I have said before I do not work in Doncaster but my own experiences there with my own mothers illness was very poor, it's never had a good reputation.

[Not Now Kato]

It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.

Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.

Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.

Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.

We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.

As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks

Absolute and utter bullshit!
 
My father, 97 years old had a serious fall.  Taken by paramedics/ambulance to DRI A&E.  Wheeled into a cold anteroom, (ambulance entrance to the hospital), where the paramedics stood with him waiting for over an hour before he was finally admitted due to the number of people on trollies in front of him.  Then left on a trolley waiting for a doctor to do the preliminary examination for ages before finally admitting him. No prioritisation whatsoever! Just taking his turn in the queue!
 
The treatment Dad got after that was first class and I've no complaints whatsoever, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is utter bullshit.  Unless you're fudging the figures!
 
Cant fault the paramedics, can't fault the treatment Dad got in hospital, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is so far from reality as to be absurd. And that's only one example - I've seen  very young children, blood running down their faces waiting their turn. My Farther-in-Law clearly having a heart attack left waiting in a cubicle and me having to chase doctors to help him!  Prioritisation? my arse!

Kato, with respect to you and your father, although he was undoubtedly injured and in need of treatment there may well have been people who were treated before him because they were in need of treatment more urgently than him.
The professionals at the hospital make the decisions and inevitably there will be people who are left with an axe to grind.
Had your dad been in a life threatening condition then I feel sure that he would have been rushed through more quickly.

Would that that were true Hound.  But there was no prioritisation, Dad was seen in rotation once those in front of him were seen.  There were then others behind him waiting their turn  And this, in spite of the paramedics trying to urge staff to see him. (They couldn't leave to attend to others until Dad was admitted).

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Is this the same guy telling us an oxygen mask was a drip and that the NHS is not being privatised?

My comment about full emergency departments being full because there is nowhere else for people to go is commonsense you don't need to be an expert to see that.

Actually this is incorrect, theres a number out of hours care places in Doncaster, I've used them with family a number of times, little wait and far better than a&e when it's not serious.

[drfchound]

It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.

Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.

Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.

Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.

We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.

As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks

Absolute and utter bullshit!
 
My father, 97 years old had a serious fall.  Taken by paramedics/ambulance to DRI A&E.  Wheeled into a cold anteroom, (ambulance entrance to the hospital), where the paramedics stood with him waiting for over an hour before he was finally admitted due to the number of people on trollies in front of him.  Then left on a trolley waiting for a doctor to do the preliminary examination for ages before finally admitting him. No prioritisation whatsoever! Just taking his turn in the queue!
 
The treatment Dad got after that was first class and I've no complaints whatsoever, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is utter bullshit.  Unless you're fudging the figures!
 
Cant fault the paramedics, can't fault the treatment Dad got in hospital, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is so far from reality as to be absurd. And that's only one example - I've seen  very young children, blood running down their faces waiting their turn. My Farther-in-Law clearly having a heart attack left waiting in a cubicle and me having to chase doctors to help him!  Prioritisation? my arse!

Kato, with respect to you and your father, although he was undoubtedly injured and in need of treatment there may well have been people who were treated before him because they were in need of treatment more urgently than him.
The professionals at the hospital make the decisions and inevitably there will be people who are left with an axe to grind.
Had your dad been in a life threatening condition then I feel sure that he would have been rushed through more quickly.

Would that that were true Hound.  But there was no prioritisation, Dad was seen in rotation once those in front of him were seen.  There were then others behind him waiting their turn  And this, in spite of the paramedics trying to urge staff to see him. (They couldn't leave to attend to others until Dad was admitted).

Fair enough Kato, obviously i wasn’t there and don’t doubt your word on this.
However, I guess there will be plenty of people who have happier tales to tell.
Maybe those luckier ones just don’t tell about it.
As ldr says though, DRI doesn’t have a great reputation generally.

[drfchound]

Is this the same guy telling us an oxygen mask was a drip and that the NHS is not being privatised?

My comment about full emergency departments being full because there is nowhere else for people to go is commonsense you don't need to be an expert to see that.

Actually this is incorrect, theres a number out of hours care places in Doncaster, I've used them with family a number of times, little wait and far better than a&e when it's not serious.

Very true bfyp, I have also made use of them.

[Not Now Kato]

Cheers hound, as the other person may suspect I'm not clinically based and they are correct to suggest that ae attendance volumes are symptomatic of people not getting help elsewhere, some of that is indeed down to unavailability but a significant proportion is ae being culturally seen as a one stop shop where  111 or a walk in centre would be more suited. NNK I am dismayed at your experience and offer my sympathy you and your family but bear in mind you in those situations would not be seeing the patients been seen and their issues. As I have said before I do not work in Doncaster but my own experiences there with my own mothers illness was very poor, it's never had a good reputation.

Thank you Ldr. DRI used to be very good indeed.  In fact, once you can get 'into the system' the quality of service and support is nothing short of excellent.
 
I can write chapter and verse of trying to overcome that fist hurdle, with both my Father and my Mother, and I've  attempted to complain on several occasions with no success whatsoever!
 
The NHS is seriously under funded and under staffed.  What it delivers, (when it finally delivers it), is nothing short of first class.  If it is ever privatised then it will be much the worse for it!

[BillyStubbsTears]

It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.

Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.

Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.

Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.

We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.

As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks

Ok Ldr. But surely you accept the rate of hitting the target as a measure of overall relative performance over time?

As in, if it consistently gets worse over time, that's an indicator of a systemic and growing problem?

Now, that may be because more people are getting unwell or hurt year on year. It may be because more people are going to A&E year on year with trivial complaints. It may be because the service is not being properly managed. Or it may be because the service is not being properly funded.

See me? As an outsider looking in at the big picture, I see target performance getting worse in line with funding being capped over and extended period of time and I hear Occam's Razor being sharpened.

[Not Now Kato]

It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.

Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.

Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.

Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.

We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.

As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks

Ok Ldr. But surely you accept the rate of hitting the target as a measure of overall relative performance over time?

As in, if it consistently gets worse over time, that's an indicator of a systemic and growing problem?

Now, that may be because more people are getting unwell or hurt year on year. It may be because more people are going to A&E year on year with trivial complaints. It may be because the service is not being properly managed. Or it may be because the service is not being properly funded.

See me? As an outsider looking in at the big picture, I see target performance getting worse in line with funding being capped over and extended period of time and I hear Occam's Razor being sharpened.

I suspect more people are going to A&E due to the difficulty, (time wise), of getting an appointment with a local GP - around 2 weeks at my local surgery unless I phone between 08:30 and 9:00 and ask for an emergency appointment, (even then I have to await a call back to assess if it really is an emergency), and there are only a limited amount of those appointments anyway.  Again a result of underfunding of the NHS in total.

[SydneyRover]

It's interesting Kato the UK is about 7th in the world by gdp ahd Australia a good deal lower

I can ring my doctor make an appt and see him the same day, no charge.

Australia is way ahead of the UK average of personal wealth, it will take someone smarter than me to tell me why.

[Ldr]

To contribute to the public / private debate NNK it's worth noting that most (not all) GPs, whilst delivering NHS services are private businesses, that's just a point for information.

Front line services in the NHS are definitely underfunded, the NHS has that many organisations under its banner though that it is quite capable of mass wastage in the system. Imho the whole system of organisations in the background needs streamlining, it's not as simple throw more money at it whilst the wastage is there (though it wouldn't hurt).

Also to throw it out there, should the NHS be offering all the services it does?  You could make the argument that things like IVF, cosmetic plastics etc are lifestyle, not health and you could make the counter argument that those services promote mental health. The point being how much do the public want to put in to the NHS. Thinking practically if it's the former then stripping away some of the non essential services would mean more resources for essential ones. If it's the latter then we must accept that we probs need to tax more to fund it.

BST sorry when the point scoring fanatic joins in I tune out. I will be in the lakeside on boxing day if people want an NHS chat over a pint

[drfchound]

I can also get a same day appointment with my local GP practice free of charge.

[Not Now Kato]

To contribute to the public / private debate NNK it's worth noting that most (not all) GPs, whilst delivering NHS services are private businesses, that's just a point for information.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

Front line services in the NHS are definitely underfunded, the NHS has that many organisations under its banner though that it is quite capable of mass wastage in the system. Imho the whole system of organisations in the background needs streamlining, it's not as simple throw more money at it whilst the wastage is there (though it wouldn't hurt).

I know a little bit about mass wastage.  My Daughter-in-Law is a director of a company that supplies IT services/applications to the NHS.  She/they have to negotiate separately with the various 'Trusts' rather than one centralised body.  A very expensive and wasteful process that leads to a degree of incompatibility as some trusts use them whilst other trusts choose something else or don't bother!  I am sure there are other areas and these really should be addressed. The system, as it is today, is wide open to privatisation - with the attendant risks that that presents.

Also to throw it out there, should the NHS be offering all the services it does?  You could make the argument that things like IVF, cosmetic plastics etc are lifestyle, not health and you could make the counter argument that those services promote mental health. The point being how much do the public want to put in to the NHS. Thinking practically if it's the former then stripping away some of the non essential services would mean more resources for essential ones. If it's the latter then we must accept that we probs need to tax more to fund it.

A difficult one this.  There are indeed people who look to cosmetic surgery etc due to the stress their condition presents, whilst there most certainly are others who do this through vanity.  I'm not sure how this could easily be addressed.

[SydneyRover]

Unless they were for road trauma or those that cannot have children via normal practice, not sure I'd call that lifestyle but there you go.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The definition of cosmetic is interesting.  I've had the procedure commonly called a nose job, but goes by the name of septorhinoplasty.

Ironically my private healthcare didnt cover it but the nhs did. Most see it as a cosmetic procedure but they affects of it on my life were huge.  Yes the OP itself had some adverse effects (ironically aesthetically) l. But after years of struggles I can breathe properly, my asthma hugely improved due to that and my taste changed dramatically.  Not everything that's portrayed as cosmetic is just that.

And to add, the OP and recovery was bloody horrible.

[The Red Baron]

Interesting (though by no means unique) take on why Labour did badly in its heartlands from a now former MP.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html

[Bentley Bullet]

I had a problem with my nose. I couldn't sneeze. The NHS wouldn't cover it so I had to go private. Apparently the nurse said I needed to be in BUPA to get a blow job.

[bpoolrover]

Interesting (though by no means unique) take on why Labour did badly in its heartlands from a now former MP.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html

it will be interesting to hear what labour voters on hear think of that as it’s from the independent, people keep saying about the right wing papers ect. But most in labour heartlands won’t go near the mail, to move forward labour need to accept that the problem lies only within the Labour Party, the papers have been the same for years and labour have still got into power

[SydneyRover]

Anything to support what you said bp?

Not sure why anyone would go near the mail its staunchly right wing and the most untrustworthy newspaper published, but ppl do it's got the second highest readerships in the UK, goes to show what you get if you bracket bullshit with tits and sport.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Interesting (though by no means unique) take on why Labour did badly in its heartlands from a now former MP.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html

it will be interesting to hear what labour voters on hear think of that as it’s from the independent, people keep saying about the right wing papers ect. But most in labour heartlands won’t go near the mail, to move forward labour need to accept that the problem lies only within the Labour Party, the papers have been the same for years and labour have still got into power

I couldn't agree more Bpool.

Back in 2015 when Corbyn became leader, I said he would lose and the Left would blame in on the media.

It's happening to some extent. And it's self-indulgent. We KNEW what the media would be like. They are not going to vanish. They are a given. Labour has to beat that, not complain when they lose.

Maybe now, some on the Left will realise why Blair and Alastair Campbell existed.

[bpoolrover]

Anything to support what you said bp?

Not sure why anyone would go near the mail its staunchly right wing and the most untrustworthy newspaper published, but ppl do it's got the second highest readerships in the UK, goes to show what you get if you bracket bullshit with tits and sport.

What do you mean support what I said?

[SydneyRover]

sorry I just  thought that because my reply was about the mail you would have made the connection

''But most in labour heartlands won’t go near the mail''

[bpoolrover]

Do you think they do? Or are you just looking to argue as normal

[SydneyRover]

or course i'm interested it's why i asked, why do those who have difficulty supporting what they write mostly answer a question with a question, another question for you.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting (though by no means unique) take on why Labour did badly in its heartlands from a now former MP.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html

it will be interesting to hear what labour voters on hear think of that as it’s from the independent, people keep saying about the right wing papers ect. But most in labour heartlands won’t go near the mail, to move forward labour need to accept that the problem lies only within the Labour Party, the papers have been the same for years and labour have still got into power

I couldn't agree more Bpool.

Back in 2015 when Corbyn became leader, I said he would lose and the Left would blame in on the media.

It's happening to some extent. And it's self-indulgent. We KNEW what the media would be like. They are not going to vanish. They are a given. Labour has to beat that, not complain when they lose.

Maybe now, some on the Left will realise why Blair and Alastair Campbell existed.

I do wonder if it's the press guiding the readers or is it the readers that guide the press.  It's like the old adage that the sun has a big say, perhaps the sun just follows where it thinks most people.are heading?

I do agree that the more mainstream written press favours the tories, there are though left wing papers, why are they not as influential?

I also fundamentally disagree the BBC is biased, the same bbc that has constantly slaughtered all parties.

What is the answer though? I genuinely dont know that. Should all channels be split, should channel 4 lose the left wing bias for example?  It's tough to know.  Certainly labour still hasnt figured out what to do.  I do think there is a bit of sway from social media, ie because they do well on social media labour think they've cracked it, when in reality most of the electorate isnt bothered and actually is quieter.