Integrity in politics

[SydneyRover]

Here's a thought.

In 2007/08 when the roof fell in on the global banking system, we were hours away from the entire financial structure of the capitalist world ceasing to function. That is no exaggeration. We were literally hours away from a domino effect og banks going bust and the entire financial structure that underpins business failing.

The then Labour Govt led the world in taking the emergency action that was necessary to save the entire global economic system from crashing. It cost unimaginable sums of money to do that. But it had to be done. Not to protect the banks, but to protect all of us.

It led to Govt debt skyrocketting. Not because of profligate spending, but because of the Govt saving the economy, then keeping things going through the inevitable and very nasty recession that followed.

All that was textbook economics. But Cameron and Osborne, helped by the media, portrayed Gordon Brown as a reckless, out of control spender who was dangerous to Britain. Labour were "Deficit Deniers" in not slashing Govt spending. The deficit and the debt were all that mattered. We had "maxed our the nation's credit card".

Bullshit. All of it. Done for political reasons because it was the Tories' path to winning in 2010.

Now. See this...
https://twitter.com/DuncanWeldon/status/1245686024736518145

Our Govt debt is about to go through the roof because of Govt decisions to support the economy through the ravages of CV-19. The effect on the national debt will be at least as horrific as the Global Financial Crash. And the Tory Govt is absolutely correct to pour this money in because, just as in 2008, not doing so would be absolutely catastrophic for all of us.

Now, there would be a very, very easy political attack line by Labour. They could do what Osborne and Cameron did in 2009-2010. They could ignore the textbook economics and look to make political capital out of this. They could accuse the Govt of being reckless with the nation's finances.

I will guarantee you that they will not.

And those of you who idly say that all politicians are the same, just stop and ponder that. How you were treated like gullible idiots by Cameron a decade ago. And how Starmer will not do the same this time round. and then think whether there actually ARE some people with integrity in politics, who put the interests of the nation ahead of party benefit.

Anyone want to discuss the topic and the facts and explain why this wasn't pure political jealousy?

[BigH]

Actually, BB, serious question.

Do you think the government are in control of events?

Yes or no.

How can I answer that in one word? I bet you can though!

Ah.

So you're answering a question with a question. Crafty!

You go first. As many words as you like.

Gee thanks. I think the government is doing its best. There have been mistakes along the way, in hindsight, but unfortunately, hindsight is a gift that only certain spectators possess. 

Ok, we can work with that.

[SydneyRover]

Here's a thought.

In 2007/08 when the roof fell in on the global banking system, we were hours away from the entire financial structure of the capitalist world ceasing to function. That is no exaggeration. We were literally hours away from a domino effect og banks going bust and the entire financial structure that underpins business failing.

The then Labour Govt led the world in taking the emergency action that was necessary to save the entire global economic system from crashing. It cost unimaginable sums of money to do that. But it had to be done. Not to protect the banks, but to protect all of us.

It led to Govt debt skyrocketting. Not because of profligate spending, but because of the Govt saving the economy, then keeping things going through the inevitable and very nasty recession that followed.

All that was textbook economics. But Cameron and Osborne, helped by the media, portrayed Gordon Brown as a reckless, out of control spender who was dangerous to Britain. Labour were "Deficit Deniers" in not slashing Govt spending. The deficit and the debt were all that mattered. We had "maxed our the nation's credit card".

Bullshit. All of it. Done for political reasons because it was the Tories' path to winning in 2010.

Now. See this...
https://twitter.com/DuncanWeldon/status/1245686024736518145

Our Govt debt is about to go through the roof because of Govt decisions to support the economy through the ravages of CV-19. The effect on the national debt will be at least as horrific as the Global Financial Crash. And the Tory Govt is absolutely correct to pour this money in because, just as in 2008, not doing so would be absolutely catastrophic for all of us.

Now, there would be a very, very easy political attack line by Labour. They could do what Osborne and Cameron did in 2009-2010. They could ignore the textbook economics and look to make political capital out of this. They could accuse the Govt of being reckless with the nation's finances.

I will guarantee you that they will not.

And those of you who idly say that all politicians are the same, just stop and ponder that. How you were treated like gullible idiots by Cameron a decade ago. And how Starmer will not do the same this time round. and then think whether there actually ARE some people with integrity in politics, who put the interests of the nation ahead of party benefit.

Anyone want to discuss the topic and the facts and explain why this wasn't pure political jealousy?

[Ldr]

Hi Sydney, hope you are keeping well over there. A quick thought on this before I hit the sack. BST is right to draw comparison between the scenarios, I think hes throwing a bit of a red herring though, both parties in both circumstances have acted consistent with their beliefs in opposition at the time. The Conservatives about spending and labour not complaining now. I would suspect though labour haven't tried scoring capital out of it for 2 reasons, one the lack of leadership at this time and 2 it would make them very hypocritical given then did the same in 08 and pretty much campaigned the ge massive spending

[scawsby steve]

The way I see it and I genuinely couldn't give a monkeys about Brexit anymore, that's been and gone, whether I agreed with it or not.....however the only thing we currently need to worry about is Covid-19 and the reason it looks like the situation is escalating so badly in the UK is 2 fold......

1) The government who ever that is whether it be Boris, Cummings, Hancock, the scientists that have been advising have not acted quickly enough, testing hasn't been done quickly enough, machines have not been built quickly enough and lock down (or whatever we are calling it) has not been done quickly enough.... All of these things should have been put into action when it was obvious how big an issue this disease was going to be 2+ months ago...

2) the NHS and local authorities have been horrifically underfunded for 10 years and the country is simply not in a position where it could handle this kind of pandemic. The hospitals don't have the money, capacity, equipment to deal with it..... Teams in the community are not there to be able to undertake the testing needed....

Whether this would have happened under a Labour government who knows and quite frankly who cares.... We're in this sh1t now and now is not the time for this pathetic, petty argument on this football forum... Now is a time when we should all be joining forces and trying to deal with this as a country, as a planet and should be a wake up call to all that we are lied to constantly by ALL politicians, and at some point we need to start standing up to this crap!

Well said mate, I totally agree with everything you've said there. However, I know one poster who'll not agree with your use of the phrase "ALL politicians".

[drfchound]

The way I see it and I genuinely couldn't give a monkeys about Brexit anymore, that's been and gone, whether I agreed with it or not.....however the only thing we currently need to worry about is Covid-19 and the reason it looks like the situation is escalating so badly in the UK is 2 fold......

1) The government who ever that is whether it be Boris, Cummings, Hancock, the scientists that have been advising have not acted quickly enough, testing hasn't been done quickly enough, machines have not been built quickly enough and lock down (or whatever we are calling it) has not been done quickly enough.... All of these things should have been put into action when it was obvious how big an issue this disease was going to be 2+ months ago...

2) the NHS and local authorities have been horrifically underfunded for 10 years and the country is simply not in a position where it could handle this kind of pandemic. The hospitals don't have the money, capacity, equipment to deal with it..... Teams in the community are not there to be able to undertake the testing needed....

Whether this would have happened under a Labour government who knows and quite frankly who cares.... We're in this sh1t now and now is not the time for this pathetic, petty argument on this football forum... Now is a time when we should all be joining forces and trying to deal with this as a country, as a planet and should be a wake up call to all that we are lied to constantly by ALL politicians, and at some point we need to start standing up to this crap!

Good post that rtid88.
I agree with most of it but I think that the reality of how serious this virus is probably only hit home to most people, especially on this forum, when the the Wimbledon game was postponed on 14th March.
Two months ago most people still thought it was something that was happening in other parts of the world.
Two months ago we were all carrying on with life as normal, going to the football, going on holiday etc.
Touching elbows instead of shaking hands only started around 6th/7th March.

[SydneyRover]

Johnson did say that covid 19 would not interfere with the brexit dedline.

[drfchound]

Brexit isn’t important right now so who cares.

[SydneyRover]

Hi Sydney, hope you are keeping well over there. A quick thought on this before I hit the sack. BST is right to draw comparison between the scenarios, I think hes throwing a bit of a red herring though, both parties in both circumstances have acted consistent with their beliefs in opposition at the time. The Conservatives about spending and labour not complaining now. I would suspect though labour haven't tried scoring capital out of it for 2 reasons, one the lack of leadership at this time and 2 it would make them very hypocritical given then did the same in 08 and pretty much campaigned the ge massive spending

You're right in parts Ldr, to maintain their myth of being the money managers they had to destroy and continue to destroy labours fiscal record in office, labour pretty much nailed the response to the gst and left a surplus for the tories on just about every occassion but 1 since the war and yet you get the same uneducated dross telling us the they won't vote labor because of a million reasons except the real reason they are tories.

[rtid88]

I was one of these people who didn't treat this disease with the seriousness we all should and I feel bad for not having listened to people earlier.... However I am not a politician with infinite resources to details that we will never be privy too.... I'm 100% convinced the government must have known the seriousness of this disease months ago... But perhaps hoped it wouldn't transpire as badly here for whatever reason or just thought it wasnt financially important enough to deal with sooner... Who knows, however again we are in this situation now and nothing can change that! The government and the world is in dire situation now financially and who knows what the final financial impact this disease will cause..... But bickering about it and arguing who's political party would have handled it better simply isn't going to help matters!

[selby]

  If Germany carry on refusing to back a bond issue with The Netherlands and Denmark, there may not be much of the EU left to negotiate with.
  Unlikely with the German Government, but the German people? heaven sent for the right wing opposition.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hi Sydney, hope you are keeping well over there. A quick thought on this before I hit the sack. BST is right to draw comparison between the scenarios, I think hes throwing a bit of a red herring though, both parties in both circumstances have acted consistent with their beliefs in opposition at the time. The Conservatives about spending and labour not complaining now. I would suspect though labour haven't tried scoring capital out of it for 2 reasons, one the lack of leadership at this time and 2 it would make them very hypocritical given then did the same in 08 and pretty much campaigned the ge massive spending

Ldr

Follow the logic then.

The Tories told us in 2008-10 that Govt spending was categorically NOT the answer. But when they are in power and faced with a similar economic crisis, suddenly it IS the answer.

Labour said that Govt spending was the answer in 2008. And they are saying it is the answer now.

Both parties, when in power, have done the correct economic thing. The textbook economic response.

But it is undeniable that only one side has been consistent when in opposition.

It is self-evident that the Tories' "Deficit Denier" line in 2008-10 was done for party politics. Because if the Right truly did believe that the deficit and debt was everything then, they wouldn't be running up such a deficit and debt now.

You cannot make that logical conclusion about Labour. Because they have been consistent in their position. So you can ONLY decide that Labour have the position they have now for party political gain if you come to the table assuming that all politicians will only ever do what is in their interest. And if you start from that position, it is very sad indeed.

[Ldr]

BST, I refer you to my opinion about integrity and politics not belonging in the same sentence mate

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr.

I am truly glad I don't live in that world.

I've known several politicians from both sides. I haven't always agreed with them (especially the Labour ones) but I've never had cause to doubt that they went into politics because they believed they could make a difference for the people they represent.

Your take is very depressing. If that's what people want to believe, frankly we don't deserve democracy.

[Ldr]

BST it's a generalisation on my part. I would admit backbenchers are probably in it to do good. I have met the mp for Newcastle North when she agreed to present awards at a club event and would agree she is. I highly doubt any that seek power are though. Sure I have heard it said that those who seek power should be excluded from it

[selby]

  We will all see how much integrity is about if Germany hold fast and don't back Euro bonds, the  hedge funds  in New York and London will go after the Euro, and the med states Spain, Italy, Greece , and France will be flattened.
   This will be the biggest test of European unity in the EU's history, it is down to the northern states, who will come under intense pressure to look after their own population and not accept the cost of debt of the Southern states, especially if the Covid 19 outbreak spreads into the immigrant camps.

[BigH]

I was one of these people who didn't treat this disease with the seriousness we all should and I feel bad for not having listened to people earlier.... However I am not a politician with infinite resources to details that we will never be privy too.... I'm 100% convinced the government must have known the seriousness of this disease months ago... But perhaps hoped it wouldn't transpire as badly here for whatever reason or just thought it wasnt financially important enough to deal with sooner... Who knows, however again we are in this situation now and nothing can change that! The government and the world is in dire situation now financially and who knows what the final financial impact this disease will cause..... But bickering about it and arguing who's political party would have handled it better simply isn't going to help matters!

Yep, the 'who knew' about it' bunch.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwi86KGGoc3oAhUMT8AKHWQ7BikQFjABegQIBhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.occrp.org%2Fen%2Fdaily%2F11892-us-politicians-sell-shares-of-stock-before-coronavirus-crash&usg=AOvVaw0T_s2f3He_ExWvWVAsr5Uf

Hate to say this but I'm expecting a similar story to emerge in the UK over the next few weeks.

My money's on 'Somerset Asset Management'

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/rees-mogg-declares-himself-fan-of-irish-investment-regime-1.3822113

[BillyStubbsTears]

The way I see it and I genuinely couldn't give a monkeys about Brexit anymore, that's been and gone, whether I agreed with it or not.....however the only thing we currently need to worry about is Covid-19 and the reason it looks like the situation is escalating so badly in the UK is 2 fold......

1) The government who ever that is whether it be Boris, Cummings, Hancock, the scientists that have been advising have not acted quickly enough, testing hasn't been done quickly enough, machines have not been built quickly enough and lock down (or whatever we are calling it) has not been done quickly enough.... All of these things should have been put into action when it was obvious how big an issue this disease was going to be 2+ months ago...

2) the NHS and local authorities have been horrifically underfunded for 10 years and the country is simply not in a position where it could handle this kind of pandemic. The hospitals don't have the money, capacity, equipment to deal with it..... Teams in the community are not there to be able to undertake the testing needed....

Whether this would have happened under a Labour government who knows and quite frankly who cares.... We're in this sh1t now and now is not the time for this pathetic, petty argument on this football forum... Now is a time when we should all be joining forces and trying to deal with this as a country, as a planet and should be a wake up call to all that we are lied to constantly by ALL politicians, and at some point we need to start standing up to this crap!

Well said mate, I totally agree with everything you've said there. However, I know one poster who'll not agree with your use of the phrase "ALL politicians".

That's because it is wrong.

Rishi Sunak did precisely the right thing a couple of weeks ago in pouring Govt money into the economy. That goes against everything he WANTS to do in politics, but he did it because it is unquestionably the correct thing to do. We should be thankful that decision was made. Just like we should be thankful that Brown and Darling did the same correct thing in 2008-10.

Just because SOME politicians are liars, it doesn't mean it is correct to assume that all are. In fact, worse than that, it is deeply dangerous to assume that all are. Because if you do, like SS here, you are giving a free pass to the ones who genuinely ARE dangerous, self0interested liars.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Some people on this forum are going to get a horrible shock in June when Johnson has to decide whether or not to ask the EU for a Brexit extension.

Integrity in politics, you ain't seen nuthin yet...

Amen to that.

Johnson's entire approach was to play Brexit for his own political benefit. He DID lie repeatedly about it, just as he's lied about everything in his entire political and personal life. He knew that there will be a big and prolonged economic hit because of Brexit, but his calculation was that people would turn a blind eye to that because he had delivered the visceral thing they wanted, and he could mitigate the worst of the economic damage by greatly increased public spending.

That's blown out of the water now. We are going to have a very nasty recession due to CV-19 alone. The estimates are that GDP in Q2 this year will be down 15% on last year which is a staggering amount - Great Depression levels of economic collapse. It's expected that the deficit this year will be £200bn. That is way more than it was in 2009 in the depths of the GFC.

So the money that he planned to borrow and spend to mitigate the worst of Brexit is already gone.

Rebuilding our shattered economy after CV-19 is the work of 20 years or more. It would take an exceptionally brave politician to extend that pain by simultaneously taking on the economic hit of Brexit. But to avoid that hit, he would have to come clean to the British people that Brexit was always going to make us poorer.

If it were any other politician than Johnson, I'd feel a pang of sympathy for him, because that is a horrific situation to be in.

But frankly, it's a situation precisely of his own making. A classic example of Hubris and Nemesis.

[SydneyRover]

I was one of these people who didn't treat this disease with the seriousness we all should and I feel bad for not having listened to people earlier.... However I am not a politician with infinite resources to details that we will never be privy too.... I'm 100% convinced the government must have known the seriousness of this disease months ago... But perhaps hoped it wouldn't transpire as badly here for whatever reason or just thought it wasnt financially important enough to deal with sooner... Who knows, however again we are in this situation now and nothing can change that! The government and the world is in dire situation now financially and who knows what the final financial impact this disease will cause..... But bickering about it and arguing who's political party would have handled it better simply isn't going to help matters!

It's refreshing to read someone admit a mistake 88 it doesn't happen enough on this forum.

[SydneyRover]

Hi Sydney, hope you are keeping well over there. A quick thought on this before I hit the sack. BST is right to draw comparison between the scenarios, I think hes throwing a bit of a red herring though, both parties in both circumstances have acted consistent with their beliefs in opposition at the time. The Conservatives about spending and labour not complaining now. I would suspect though labour haven't tried scoring capital out of it for 2 reasons, one the lack of leadership at this time and 2 it would make them very hypocritical given then did the same in 08 and pretty much campaigned the ge massive spending

Hi Ldr, apologies I didn't respond well to your message, had to rush to start the daily scrabble game. Yes I am well thank you and I hope you, all of you fare well through this catastrophe, uncertain and testing times ahead.

[SydneyRover]

If we are still discussing integrity then we should at least look at integrity of ideology and of course the message from the tories has been Austerity is the only way with the money taps turned off so tightly that people have died in their homes. The British people have suffered this for nigh on 10 years (the Australian people have been suffering the same but only for six years)

Now if we are to believe that Austerity is the answer surely then in times of crisis we should be having Austerity personified which will give us a better outcome sooner.

Added:

Those that voted for the tories must have believed in Austerity to banish debt a central plank to tory policy otherwise why would they vote for the suffering and death that has been so obvious over the past decade.

What do those adherents to tory conservatism think now, were they consulted that the good ship rule britannia is doing a 180? did they get a say so they could strap themselves in to the new evangelical cry of spend spend spend (echoes from the past)

As usual comrade johnson will lead from the rear to see which way the wind is blowing

[Filo]

Nicked from facebook but true



After the last election I vowed to wean myself off politics like a recovering smack head. Only instead of using the vastly inferior methadone (I'm told) I'd just avoid Question Time and the urge to punch my TV everytime Peston word buffers.

Instead I'd reinvent myself as a laughing spectre of doom, screaming 'I f**king told you so' at every available opportunity like your patronising spouse after you've just electrocuted yourself doing COVID DIY, because you're cleverer than a f**king qualified electrician aren't you? Kitson.

The trouble is that nobody cares. If I point and laugh I'm just a negative Nancy willing your grans to die. I should just clap and think positively. That'll get us through.

It's a waste of my time and to be honest what's the f**king point in highlighting the woeful incompetence of this government anymore, when the terrified masses that voted them in are rallying around the flag. Clapping for NHS workers on their doorsteps by night, then booing them in Aldi queues when exhausted nurses try and reap the pitiful benefit of pushing in line after a 13 hour night shift saving their ungrateful arses by morning.

You should be ashamed. Ashamed of how you voted, yes, I'm talking to you, you clapping, Conservative voting, hypocritical arseholes.

I could spew platitudes about the tories ignoring offers of help from actual ventilator manufacturers months ago and instead opting to the scratch the backs of their tax-dodging billionaire mates, or their failures on adequately equipping our frontline NHS staff with life saving protective equipment in time, and their horrendous track record on testing, but why?  What's the f**king point? I'm preaching to the choir.

They've spent a decade punishing us in the name of the god of austerity. Underfunding our public services, our NHS, and leaving the most vulnerable to rot. All the while villyfying anything even resembling Socialist values. The said same ones they're now forced to adopt in times of crisis.

Clap your hands by all means but if you really value our modern day heroes then f**king show them at the next ballot. This isn't a war, Boris isn't Churchill, but I actually do believe he and his team are beginning to take this shit seriously. It's just a damn shame that it's far too little, far too late.

                           

[IDM]

Johnson did say that covid 19 would not interfere with the brexit dedline.

But it has to..

Brexit isn’t “done” yet, it’s just formally commitment to being done.

Hound is correct, brexit isn’t important at all just NOW but it will become important again later.

Johnson and his government CANNOT rush through brexit by pigheadedly sticking to an arbitrary deadline now rendered meaningless by this pandemic.

Before anyone pipes up, that’s not me being anti-brexit nor even partisan political.. and yes I am repeating myself, but it is important..

[SydneyRover]

Brexit will not be delayed by coronavirus, says Johnson

Spokesman says there are no plans to extend transition period beyond end of December

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/13/brexit-will-not-be-delayed-by-coronavirus-says-johnson

and if johnson said it, it must be true   

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah.

Back in mid-March, Johnson was also saying he'd been round a CV-19 ward and shaken hands with everyone.

That turned out well for him didn't it? f**king idiot.

[DonnyOsmond]

Wonder if Labour will get left a note saying "Now there's really is no money left. "

[DonnyOsmond]

Brexit isn’t important right now so who cares.

Surely it is important in the point that we need to extend the transition so leaders in Europe can focus on Covid19 and move back to it after. It's also important not to tank the economy more than we have at the moment, let's extend and get to the otherside of the pandemic and then start negotiations again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Anyone in Govt who is prioritising Brexit negotiations at a moment like this wants taking to a big dog.

[drfchound]

Anyone in Govt who is prioritising Brexit negotiations at a moment like this wants taking to a big dog.

One hundred percent this.