Lee Bowyer

[Donnywolf]

Whichever way is pans out there will be people who feel hard done by and people who will be elated.

Hard done by Liverpool Elated Man U
Hard done by WBA        Elated Wolves
Hard done by Leeds      Elated almost every other Football fan

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I see Darren Moore has also come out against anything but voiding the season.  Seems like a problem is brewing.

[drfchound]

At the end of the day only one team would probably vastly exceed expectations. By the same token probably only one Orr two teams would go on such a bad run to unexpectedly be relegated.
It would be interesting to know how after 35 games the previous few seasons would have panned out if PPG were used for the remaining games.

I've just had a very quick look at L1 for the past two seasons.

Last year, the top 2 after 35-36 games on H/A-weighted PPG were the top 2 at the end of the season. And same with the four sides in the play-off positions.

2017-18 was almost the same. Just the final play-off position was a tough one - Peterborough, Plymouth and Charlton were all on target to get 69 points on weighted PPG, with Plymouth just ahead by decimal places, Peterborough 7th and Charlton 8th. As it turned out, Charlton clinched the 6th spot, with Plymouth 7th and Peterborough 9th.

So based on the last two seasons, doing weighted PPG would get the top two right. Problem comes if the EFL decide to promote the third placed team.

In 2017/18, weighted PPG suggested Shrewsbury, and they did finish 3rd.

But in 2018/19. weighted PPG had Sunderland in 3rd, 7 points ahead of 4th. As it panned out, the collapsed and finished fifth, with Charlton getting 3rd.

Conclusion: Weighted PPG isn't bad but it looks to be far from perfect and I anticipate some serious threats of legal action if that's how it goes. In our division in particular, it looks like a terrible way of deciding things, given how tight everything is. You might as well draw lots between the sides in positions 3-8 for the third promotion spot.

I thought that you or Dutch might have a dabble at that BST. I'm not lazy, I just don't possess the skills that you,Dutch and one or two more have.
It seems that whichever way you go somebody will be disappointed. Maybe the least controversial would be a weighted PPG and a play off between teams 3-7 with the agreement that there are no later complaints.
That just might upset the fewest number of clubs. It's not perfect but would bring it to a close and reward the teams that have done well.

idler, you do mean teams 3-6 don’t you.
I see what you mean about your skills. (Enter tongue in cheek emoji here).

[phil old leake]

Idler by there being no further complaints do you mean a bit like the leaving Europe referendum was binding and arguments didn’t go on by the losers

[idler]

Sorry about the maths hound. As you say point proven.😳
Phil, I can't see any below us having a gripe and we were hoping against hope on a miraculous run just to make the play offs.
The bottom two were both expected to go down by their own fans and are now hoping to stay up on a thechnicality to stay up. The only real complaint would be by Tranmere if they were relegated under PPG thinking they might have escaped or a club slightly higher that then finished in the final position.
That is of course just my opinion. I would feel disappointed if we were relegated in a season like this but you are where you are as far as league positions go. All teams have had 30 odd games to prove how good or poor they are.

[IDM]

Sorry idler, I have to disagree, 30 odd games does not make a season.

How many games were left to play when Leicester staged an unlikely survival in the premier league a few years ago.?  6 or 7 ish.?  Look what’s happened to them since.

I do understand the thoughts that the majority of the games have been played, but this doesn’t predict a conclusion - other than Liverpool realistically.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

[phil old leake]

I agree with you IDM I think I can also remember a few years ago Crystal Palace I think were somewhere near the bottom of the championship at Christmas and made it to the play offs and eventually got promoted
I think it was Palace unless I’m having another old Duffer moment which wouldn’t be surprising to me

[NickDRFC]

Sorry idler, I have to disagree, 30 odd games does not make a season.

How many games were left to play when Leicester staged an unlikely survival in the premier league a few years ago.?  6 or 7 ish.?  Look what’s happened to them since.

I do understand the thoughts that the majority of the games have been played, but this doesn’t predict a conclusion - other than Liverpool realistically.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

It seems to me there are two schools of thought here. You're saying that it's unfair to complete the season right now, using what's happened to date to predict the remaining results, because of what might happen. A seemingly doomed team could escape, or a side sitting in mid-table could put a run together to climb into the play-off spots.

What the rest of us seem to think is that it's unfair to do the opposite and void the season, because of what has happened. Neither outcome is ideal or perfect but your idea of fairness is sacrificing the efforts and achievements of teams having played over two thirds of a season on the basis that one or two teams could, against the odds, end up in a different finishing position. That doesn't sound particularly fair to me.

[IDM]

If we reset the season to 0, that’s the same for everyone.

Yes it is a big blow to those who were looking like they could get promoted but at least the same outcome is applied to everyone.

Take a look at the current league one table.  Rotherham in second have 62 points, yet the six teams in 3rd to 8th are separated by one point - three on 60 and 3 on 59.

If we assume there is no play off and the teams predicted to finish 1-3 get promoted, how is it fair to pick one of 6 teams split currently by only one point, to take that third place, never mind catch up on Rotherham only 2 points higher in second, with an average of 9 games left each.?

That part of the table is far too close - it is hardly against the odds that teams in 3rd to 8th place would swap places significantly if matches were played.

After 35 games each the 4 teams in the play off positions are separated by one point in total.  Is there a fair model which can separate them.?

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think voiding the season is a particularly pleasant outcome at all,   but in my honest opinion it is the “least worst”’of the alternatives to playing out the season.

[Donnybob]

There is no fair modelling solution, certainly not one invented on the hoof.

If there were just 3 games left would any team accept the table as it is, to not have the last day drama, the shifting positions as the clock ticks round to 5pm?

Would you say, when the penalty was awarded at Brentford that it wouldn't matter if the season was ended because, what's a few seconds? Or would Birmingham been happy versus Bolton at the 90 minute mark, to be relegated because our game had finished?

Man U denied their victory in the Chumps League final if it ended 3 minutes sooner.

Minutes matter. One game matters. Eight or 10 games is unthinkable, unpredictable and unethical if it involves inventing a solution. Might as well bring back the pools panel and guess the results.

In Charlton's case, they have been outside the bottom 3 all season, in there for just one fixture. Next match, home to Hull... do they also have a game in hand?

It's null and void for me if it cannot be settled on the pitch, playing to the same laws as were in force on the opening day of the season. Anything less damages the integrity of the game.

[phil old leake]

I just can’t get my head around how people feel that there are any fair and just solutions to this apart from voiding the league or playing it out somehow
For me anything else is just madness and a serious recipe for major issues that will take ages to resolve. I think everyone agrees that none of its ideal and if some made up scenario solution is implemented someone will feel aggrieved. 
In the circumstances outlined above re league 1 there will be a few teams complaining

[IDM]

Another example - had the season paused at the same date last season, in the championship the top 3 would have all played 37 games: Norwich top on 75, Leeds second on 73, Sheffield Utd third on 71.

If ppg was applied to finish that season (just on games, no analysis of home vs away) then the top 3 would stay the same.

Now isn’t getting promoted to the premier league the richest reward in football.?

But we all know that as the last season finished, Leeds missed out.  But they missed out due to results on the pitch.

The stakes and rewards are far to big to concoct an outcome.

[phil old leake]

Agreed

[The Beast]

I think there’s no real fair solution, in my opinion the fairest way is points per game, although if they voided it I’d have an irremovable smirk on my face for the rest of my life with all the Donny Shites in this God forsaken town.

[NewDonny]

I just can’t get my head around how people feel that there are any fair and just solutions to this apart from voiding the league or playing it out somehow
For me anything else is just madness and a serious recipe for major issues that will take ages to resolve. I think everyone agrees that none of its ideal and if some made up scenario solution is implemented someone will feel aggrieved. 
In the circumstances outlined above re league 1 there will be a few teams complaining

Really dont agree sorry!

Why would you completely void a season that is 34-36 games into a 44 game programme, thats complete madness.

[IDM]

I just can’t get my head around how people feel that there are any fair and just solutions to this apart from voiding the league or playing it out somehow
For me anything else is just madness and a serious recipe for major issues that will take ages to resolve. I think everyone agrees that none of its ideal and if some made up scenario solution is implemented someone will feel aggrieved. 
In the circumstances outlined above re league 1 there will be a few teams complaining

Really dont agree sorry!

Why would you completely void a season that is 34-36 games into a 44 game programme, thats complete madness.

But that season is not complete.

There are several examples on this very thread on how things could change quickly and easily over a period of 8-10 games.

Voiding this season is far far from ideal, but concocting a scenario to separate no less than 6 league clubs in league one where 3 have 59 points and 3 have 60, to pick which one gets promoted, is much closer to madness than voiding the season.

You need to come up with stronger reasons than having played 30-odd games already.

[NewDonny]

I just can’t get my head around how people feel that there are any fair and just solutions to this apart from voiding the league or playing it out somehow
For me anything else is just madness and a serious recipe for major issues that will take ages to resolve. I think everyone agrees that none of its ideal and if some made up scenario solution is implemented someone will feel aggrieved. 
In the circumstances outlined above re league 1 there will be a few teams complaining

Really dont agree sorry!

Why would you completely void a season that is 34-36 games into a 44 game programme, thats complete madness.

But that season is not complete.

There are several examples on this very thread on how things could change quickly and easily over a period of 8-10 games.

Voiding this season is far far from ideal, but concocting a scenario to separate no less than 6 league clubs in league one where 3 have 59 points and 3 have 60, to pick which one gets promoted, is much closer to madness than voiding the season.

You need to come up with stronger reasons than having played 30-odd games already.

Some people are really struggling with this. With 80% of this seasons games having been played, leaving 9-10 games unplayed, please explain then why you would void the season because it has not been completed?

If a Cricket One Day International is interrupted by rain, they try to at least reach a result, whether its by reducing the number of overs or via the DL method they try and reach a result. In Formula One, again if rain or a serious crash curtails the event then its awarded to the leader at the time the race was finished and or they agree to reduce the number of laps in order to get a winner. France have cancelled the rest of their with 10 games unplayed and have named PSG as Champions, In Holland & Belgium they have done the same and are now in discussion as to who to award the leagues winners spot to and who if anyone gets relegated. Every sport is doing or has done something similar so why can't the EFL & the EPL?

[IDM]

I already have explained why I think a concocted solution is not right - the league one 3rd promotion scenario as above.

That leaves two options.  Play the season out, or void.

As I said before, to void the season is far from ideal, but it is clear, there are no blurred lines, and it’s the same treatment for everyone.

As for your cricket and F1 analogies, these scenarios are planned for and allowed within their rules.  As for France etc, I don’t necessarily agree with what they’ve done either - just because they did it, doesn’t mean it is right.

Please answer my question about how it would be fair to concoct a solution to finish the season particularly where there are 6 clubs separated by only one point with 9 games to go, where promotion is an outcome for at least one of them.?

[idler]

I agree to an extent but a club that is behind is the one that has to outperform the rest. That cannot be taken for granted. So six teams are convinced that they will better their rivals. Surely although not ideal a PPG that takes into consideration home and away games is fair to all.
A team that has been atrocious all season away can only hope to improve not state that it will.
Voiding the season will allow the richer teams to improve their squad and have an advantage next season over a team that has over achieved financially for most of this season.

[IDM]

I agree to an extent but a club that is behind is the one that has to outperform the rest. That cannot be taken for granted. So six teams are convinced that they will better their rivals. Surely although not ideal a PPG that takes into consideration home and away games is fair to all.
A team that has been atrocious all season away can only hope to improve not state that it will.
Voiding the season will allow the richer teams to improve their squad and have an advantage next season over a team that has over achieved financially for most of this season.

I agree that it might be “fair” to use such a ppg analysis to produce a set of results for one round of fixtures such as the pools panel had to do - but that was only to allow the pools companies to pay out.

But not for 9 rounds of games.  We’ve learned many times following DRFC that nothing can be taken for granted in football.

Safe from relegation with 7 games to go in 2014?  Nailed on for the league 2 championship in 2017?

One of the main attractions to go watch football is that there is always an unpredictable element.  When we played Sunderland away this season, most of us thought we would lose but we upped our game and certainly won the first half.  The same applies to players as well as the team as a whole - performing surprisingly better or worse than expected..

It’s the inconsistencies that add intrigue and interest..

That’s another reason why I don’t believe in concocted results.  I accept that others do, but I just don’t get it - and neither does our manager.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There is a basic problem for football at the moment, which appears to leave it open to legal action, whichever route it takes.

That is that there were no previously agreed rules about how to deal with a prematurely terminated season. The D/L method works and is accepted because everyone has signed up to it before games start. The massive problem that football has is that, for ANY methodology of deciding outcomes (short of completing the season) we know straightaway who benefits and who loses out.

That seems to me to be a minefield of potential legal actions from the losers. They can (credibly) claim that they have been discriminated against via rules that were chosen in the full knowledge that they would lose out.

[NewDonny]

I already have explained why I think a concocted solution is not right - the league one 3rd promotion scenario as above.

That leaves two options.  Play the season out, or void.

As I said before, to void the season is far from ideal, but it is clear, there are no blurred lines, and it’s the same treatment for everyone.

As for your cricket and F1 analogies, these scenarios are planned for and allowed within their rules.  As for France etc, I don’t necessarily agree with what they’ve done either - just because they did it, doesn’t mean it is right.

Please answer my question about how it would be fair to concoct a solution to finish the season particularly where there are 6 clubs separated by only one point with 9 games to go, where promotion is an outcome for at least one of them.?

How is it a "concocted solution" when PPG is based on your seasons performances across the games played so far and in the absence of any agreed formula for dealing with these unprecedented times PPG seems the most logical way to deal with things in my view.

Whats right and wrong went out the window when this Pandemic landed on our doormat. Personally I am sick and tired of the whole subject and cannot wait for the leagues to make a decision.

Personally speaking and I have said this before. Based on what I am hearing, they will promote Coventry & Rotherham and then ask the next 4 placed clubs to play for the last remaining third place with 2 getting relegated. With already gone that gives them the opportunity to just relegate 2.

[IDM]

Any solution which isn’t voiding nor completing the fixtures, is by definition “concocted” whether it is ppg or not - and of course there will be a debate as to how “fair” each method would be.

That’s why it is clear that playing the season out is logically the best thing to do, and voiding whilst disappointing in its own right, is as fair as it can get to all clubs equally.

If there can be no football, when is this play off going to happen.?

And how do you determine which 2 clubs get relegated.?  If there is time to play off for the third promotion place, why not for relegations?

If some teams can play football, all teams should play football..

[NewDonny]

Any solution which isn’t voiding nor completing the fixtures, is by definition “concocted” whether it is ppg or not - and of course there will be a debate as to how “fair” each method would be.

That’s why it is clear that playing the season out is logically the best thing to do, and voiding whilst disappointing in its own right, is as fair as it can get to all clubs equally.

If there can be no football, when is this play off going to happen.?

And how do you determine which 2 clubs get relegated.?  If there is time to play off for the third promotion place, why not for relegations?

If some teams can play football, all teams should play football..

If some teams can play football, all teams should play football.

The decision making is not about equality anymore its about reaching a conclusion without spreading the virus, or worse still losing a player, management or staff to this virus. So reducing the number of games makes absolute sense, although the the most sensible solution would be to finish the season, award the winners and losers and then shut up shop until its safe to start out again on a new season.

[silent majority]

Any chance we could move this discussion away from the Lee Bowyer thread?

[IDM]

Fine by me SM if you like, however reading the OP the thread starts with someone saying what Bowyer thinks about ppg to settle the season.

The ongoing debate here is about how to end the season so it seems relevant to me to be here.

Just out of interest, regardless of your role within football, what do you think about voiding the season entirely vs the ppg options.?

[silent majority]

Fine by me SM if you like, however reading the OP the thread starts with someone saying what Bowyer thinks about ppg to settle the season.

The ongoing debate here is about how to end the season so it seems relevant to me to be here.

Just out of interest, regardless of your role within football, what do you think about voiding the season entirely vs the ppg options.?

Its a difficult question to answer without my role impinging on my thought process. As I've said on a few occasions, which incidentally gets misinterpreted by certain people who maintain I'm not a football supporter, is that I can't separate the two. I've been doing this for so long now that its almost impossible for me to view the game the same way that most normal football fans do. That doesn't mean I'm not a big fan of football, of course I am, and probably bigger than most, but its hard to distinguish sometimes. Its a bit like an owner of a club, or an administrator or CEO, they can enjoy the game, the 90 minutes or so, but everything else is coloured by their responsibilities to the game and/or club.

As a fan of football, and not considering anything else, then the games should be completed. However, having discussed this with so many people in the game its apparent at our level this won't be happening. And their are numerous reasons for that which I can discuss in another thread. But to answer your question directly, the season should be voided to retain sporting integrity. Adopting a ppg formula only satisfies those clubs who are desperate for promotion.

[IDM]

Thanks SM, that’s the same conclusion as I have and as it seems has our manager. 

Sporting integrity is something we should maintain at all costs, otherwise what’s the point.?

[phil old leake]

League 2 clubs have voted to end the season and go for some kind of PPG with the play offs as normal
Person opinion don’t get it

[silent majority]

League 2 clubs have voted to end the season and go for some kind of PPG with the play offs as normal
Person opinion don’t get it

It's a financial decision, it will cost a lot of money, at a time when football clubs could well go out of business, to complete the season. Sensible in my book.