What has happened in this country

[wilts rover]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

Not particularly aimed at you Ldr but just a general thought.

I bet you feel proud and patriotic when the country has a national celebration or a sports team/person does well. I do.

If you can feel proud at the actions of others who make you then why shouldn't you feel shame at other actions that are shameful?

Also I can't but chuckle at people from Doncaster talking about respecting/disrespecting the military and what our forces have done in the past.

There were thousands of British casualties at Waterloo and the other major Napoleonic battles. But if you go there today you won't find any graves for them.

The reason you wont find any graves is that several years after their bodies were buried in mass graves, their remains were dug-up, shipped to Doncaster, and ground-down to make bone fertiliser.

How times change. But sometimes its good to look back at the symbols of the past and present and realise how and why they have changed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions

Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.

If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?

That's some very broad brush you've got there BST!

I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery, one obviously impacting on the masses with jobs, housing, welfare and education whereas the other put money into a select few pockets.

I'd be happy to consider my comfortable living was more about my work ethic and the choices I've made along the way from humble beginnings than was ever about some slave trader.

That doesn't mean I don't feel some angst, but I'm buggered if I'm going to feel responsible for those crimes as you say, and in no part do I feel that my comfortable living is due to crimes committed by my forefathers.

SM.
1) I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery.
The first stage of the Industrial Revolution was concerned with the automation of the textile making process. Predominantly cotton. Where do you think the cotton came from? It was the cheap and plentiful source form the slave plantations of the south east of the USA that facilitated the huge boom in the textiles industry in the UK that drove the need for mechanisation.

2) The slave trade put money into a select few pockets.
Where do you think it went then? You don't think they kept it in socks under the bed do you? It went into employing servants and cooks and nannies and teachers and stonemasons and tailors and farmers and coachmen and jewellers and artists and a huge range of other services. And it went into investment in the burgeoning companies of the Industrial Revolution. That money was part of what underpinned the socio-economic development of the country.

I maintain that the relatively strong economic position that we were all born into is built, in part, on the slave trade. Yes you and I might well have taken advantage of that position and used our "work ethic" to get on, but ignoring the springboard we were given by history is being wilfully blind.

I'm not asking you to give up your material wealth [1]. I'm asking people to acknowledge where their advantages came from and to reflect on that in how they respond to the current issue.


[1] Actually, I AM. I do think we have a moral responsibility to consider whether increased taxes on us, wealthy, white successes to fund socio-economic development of regions affected by what we have done historically should be on the agenda.

[Glyn_Wigley]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8

Typical that. Highlighting a left wing d*ckhead who's about as funny as a severe toothache.

You're just as free to quote a right-wing d**khead who's about as funny as severe toothache too.

But no, your reaction is to just to throw insults about. Typical that.

The only thing we can deduce from that is that you have no response to what he says. At all.

Why should I respond to someone like him who's completely irrelevant to me?

The reason why modern day comedians are so f*cking rubbish is that all they can do is take the p*ss out of everything they disagree with, and they try to pass that off as humour.

And yet you did respond. And my post wasn't even directed at you so no response from you was expected.

[Bristol Red Rover]

A little bit about the Bristol statue incident.

Many have said it is wrong that it was done in this way, people should have used the democratic system to deal with it and get the Council to remove it. This has been going on for years and always gets stuck, not least due to not wanting to upset certain people with influence in Bristol as well as a significant part of the electorate there who didn't want it removed. The statue was in the most prime place in the centre of Bristol. Sometimes direct action cuts through the crap. Given the George Floyd incident, hardly anyone is now saying it shouldn't have gone. So, job done. FWIW, I think it should stay in the docks.

There's a background in Bristol of locals not acknowledging the slave history of the city. And there was the tobacco business, like the cotton industry, made on the backs of slaves. I was shocked at the outrage about 25 years back when a mural in the docks, celebrating the history of the docks, included a tiny part (less than 5% of the mural) relating to the slave trade. Some even denied it happened, though most doubted it was important. An issue well swept under the carpet.

Even now there is a lot of objection to it having been removed. What's interesting is how far back the acceptance of slavery in Bristol goes back.

St. Wulfstan was a social reformer and Bishop of Gloucester partly responsible for ending the slave trade in the 11th Century.

This paints an horrific picture. From The Life of St. Wulfstan, 1066:

"There is a maritime town, called Bristol, which is on the direct route to Ireland, and so suitable for trade with that barbarian land. The inhabitants of this place with other Englishmen often sail to Ireland for the sake of trade. Wulfstan banished from among them a very old custom which had so hardened their hearts that neither the love of God nor the love of King William [the Conqueror] could efface it. For men whom they had purchased from all over England they carried off to Ireland; but first they got the women with child and sent them pregnant to market. You would have seen queues of the wretches of both sexes shackled together and you would have pitied them; those who were beautiful and those who were in the flower of youth were daily prostituted and sold amidst much wailing to the barbarians. Oh execrable crime, wretched dishonor, men who remind us of beasts, to sell into slavery their nearest relative because of their necessities."

[ravenrover]

How far back do people want to go with this?  The early civilisations who invariably dealt in slaves of all colours no discrimination we've conquered you get those chains on. As someone has already pointed out the black african civilisations were pretty adept at enslaving their neighbours and even participated in bringing in captives for the slave traders of the 16thC onwards they have blood on their hands as well as white people The Romans particularly efficient at it built an Empire on it yet they are revered in civilisations what did the Romans do for  us? The Egyptians without the aid of aliens built massive constructions with slave labour should we tear down the pyramids? The middle east civilisations whose sites are classed as world heritage should we follow Isis and blow them all up it just goes on and on. We can't  change what has happened be it 10 20 50 100 or 1000s of years ago what is it people actually want is it just all about black people?

[Glyn_Wigley]

The Egyptians should be bloody ashamed of themselves. Get them pyramids torn down!

[Bristol Red Rover]

Whilst I understand the link of the slave trade issue to Black Lives Matter, it's far bigger than that. Slavery along with raping and pillaging, invading, killing has been a central part of human history in every part of the world going back pre history. It's how in the main, Lord Bloggs has his land and power and Joe Bloggs doesn't.

And it continues today even in the UK most featured in the world of prostitution, but also in v low paid work like with seasonal farm workers, cleaners, and more subtley in basic wage slavery. All of this is a crime, something perpetuated by the "elite". Whether or not the individuals involved (not me guv!) had it in uppermost in their minds, that statue being rolled into Bristol docks was a small symbolic act against all of that.

[selby]

  I know where mine came from Billy, My mothers side came from Ireland to the valleys of South Wales for work in the potato famine. When they fell on hard times in the twenties my grandfather who died young due to dust in the mines and his three oldest sons walked from Brynmawr in South Wales to Askern for work because they didn't have enough money for the train fair, while my mother younger sister and mother were sent for when they had the money to travel on the train.
   My fathers side were horse traders in Hunslet and fair ground workers who again came to Askern for work in the Mines after my grandfather and my fathers two oldest brothers were killed in the first world war.
    Then my father was badly wounded in the second world war, therefore limited to what job he was able to do, although we didn't seem to want for anything it was because my mother and father were thrifty, lived within their means and gave up a lot for my school uniforms and holidays.
  I didn't know, like loads of kids of the 40's 50's we were privileged until told so  in the last few years by the spoon fed,  never wanted for anything, me me  me generations of the 70's 80's and onwards.
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Raven.

I agree with you in principle that historical issues have to be left to fade away at some point.

The reason why this one is different is that many countries are still dealing with the direct consequences of the slave trade and they are still very acute.

Do you think there are more black Americans in prison than in Universities because black are genetically predisposed to break the law more than to study?

[phil old leake]

Bristol you write about basic wage slavery
Are you suggesting that there shouldn’t be such a thing and everyone should be on the same wage
If that’s not what you’re suggesting what’s your point

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

When you were younger, you WERE in the most fortunate few percent of people who have ever lived.

That's not in any way belittling the hardships you and your family faced.

I spent every evening after primary school in my grandparents hovel of a slum house in Denaby, with no hot water, no fridge, no inside toilet, with windows that the winter draft came whistling through. My grandad was knackered from 40-odd years of shift work at Cadeby pit, most of it at the coal face.

But you and I lived in a world where there was a roof over your head. Usually food on the table. A health system. An education system through which people could better themselves. (Generally) peace and stability.

Very, very few people in history have had that. It doesn't belittle how hard you had it to accept the fact that most people, in most places, at most times have had it far harder. It just needs empathy with other people's lot.

[wilts rover]

I would encourage anyone seriously interested in the history of slavery, and how interconnected and embeded in British society it was at the time, to browse this database. It details the people who received compensation from the government when slavery was abolished in the British colonies:

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/legacies/

[Bristol Red Rover]

Bristol you write about basic wage slavery
Are you suggesting that there shouldn’t be such a thing and everyone should be on the same wage
If that’s not what you’re suggesting what’s your point

By that I'm referring to people tied to having to work in jobs to subsist, there being no actual or perceived alternative for them to do better. The differential between low and high paid is a crime, and is ever growing. That's a long way from saying everyone has to have the same.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Bristol you write about basic wage slavery
Are you suggesting that there shouldn’t be such a thing and everyone should be on the same wage
If that’s not what you’re suggesting what’s your point

By that I'm referring to people tied to having to work in jobs to subsist, there being no actual or perceived alternative for them to do better. The differential between low and high paid is a crime, and is ever growing. That's a long way from saying everyone has to have the same.

That's not slavery, that's capitalism.

[wilts rover]

What has happened in this country?

4 far-right, neo-Nazis jailed for membership of a terrorist organisation

Journalist threatened from House of Commons IP address:

https://twitter.com/danohagan/status/1270338850431344642

[phil old leake]

As a basis of fact some None white chiefs/ tribes/cultures sold fellow Non whites as slaves and profited from it By selling them to white slavers.
I’ve just had an interesting question put to me whilst discussing the riots And the current situation in England
All the anger is been aimed at white imperialists. Slavery is abhorrent and should be denounced at every opportunity and so should all forms of racism I am in no way advocating anything that supports any kind of racist behaviour
Remembering my opening line
The question put to me was Who should be denounced more. The people that that attacked other villages or areas and rounded up the slaves and sold them or the people that bought them and transported them

[drfchound]

Since time began the victorious enslaved those that they had defeated.
As someone said earlier in the thread, how far back do we need to go before we can feel free of the shame.

[Copps is Magic]

How far back do people want to go with this?  The early civilisations who invariably dealt in slaves of all colours no discrimination we've conquered you get those chains on. As someone has already pointed out the black african civilisations were pretty adept at enslaving their neighbours and even participated in bringing in captives for the slave traders of the 16thC onwards they have blood on their hands as well as white people The Romans particularly efficient at it built an Empire on it yet they are revered in civilisations what did the Romans do for  us? The Egyptians without the aid of aliens built massive constructions with slave labour should we tear down the pyramids? The middle east civilisations whose sites are classed as world heritage should we follow Isis and blow them all up it just goes on and on. We can't  change what has happened be it 10 20 50 100 or 1000s of years ago what is it people actually want is it just all about black people?

Are you still feeling the systemic discrimination/subjugation created by the Roman system? Probably not right, so in answer to your question lets go as far back where history is still having some affect.

[Copps is Magic]

As a basis of fact some None white chiefs/ tribes/cultures sold fellow Non whites as slaves and profited from it By selling them to white slavers.
I’ve just had an interesting question put to me whilst discussing the riots And the current situation in England
All the anger is been aimed at white imperialists. Slavery is abhorrent and should be denounced at every opportunity and so should all forms of racism I am in no way advocating anything that supports any kind of racist behaviour
Remembering my opening line
The question put to me was Who should be denounced more. The people that that attacked other villages or areas and rounded up the slaves and sold them or the people that bought them and transported them

How about denouncing the aspects that still have a historical legacy today. Start there.

You are still conflating racism with slavery. Two different things. Yes, slavery existed internally within Africa but it was the European imperialists who turned into a global industry, of the breadth and magnitude the world had never seen - linked to an economic, social and symbolic system of subjugation. It was this SYSTEM, and not slavery itself that created what we now understand as racism against black people today. Nothing on that order ever resulted out of slavery within Africa.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And of course, no, we weren't the only country involved in the bestiality of slavery.

This one is from Belgium's past. Tell me this doesn't make your guts knot up when you think about what privileged white Europeans did to cement and extend their privilege.

https://mobile.twitter.com/wingcommander1/status/1270350039081091072

[Copps is Magic]

And of course, no, we weren't the only country involved in the bestiality of slavery.

This one is from Belgium's past. Tell me this doesn't make your guts knot up when you think about what privileged white Europeans did to cement and extend their privilege.

https://mobile.twitter.com/wingcommander1/status/1270350039081091072

I would highly recommend to anyone to read 'King Leopold's Ghost'.

[ravenrover]

Raven.

I agree with you in principle that historical issues have to be left to fade away at some point.

The reason why this one is different is that many countries are still dealing with the direct consequences of the slave trade and they are still very acute.

Do you think there are more black Americans in prison than in Universities because black are genetically predisposed to break the law more than to study?

It's a sad indictment when colour deprives someone of advancement in any field and it is perhaps the same indictment that many blacks end up in jail rather than university but commit the crime etc etc also applies to white, hispanics and so on but my point relates to events on this side of the pond surely we can't compare events in the US to here? The swing here seems to be against our "recent" involvement in the slave trade not just racism.
A black female singer on BBC this morning accused anybody of not speaking out against racism as condoning racism bet she doesn't think like that when these same people are buying her records or showing up at her gigs. For me being racist has nothing to do with your colour it's all about what is on your head be you black, white or whatever colour just because you don't speak out in mass protest doesn't mean you condone racism in any form.

[SydneyRover]

Maybe not but the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Since time began the victorious enslaved those that they had defeated.
As someone said earlier in the thread, how far back do we need to go before we can feel free of the shame.

Get over yourself I'm not getting at you there hound, but the comment that gets churned out - and it's a very poor one. It's not about the shame, it's about recognsing what happened, and what is happening, and making changes as far as you can - even if that's simnmply what you say to others or how you vote. In some cases it would be right to take money or property from people who have directly benefitted from crimes such as slavery.

Why do people bang on about "shame" and then usually go on to pretty much ignore or avoid the issue?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Bristol you write about basic wage slavery
Are you suggesting that there shouldn’t be such a thing and everyone should be on the same wage
If that’s not what you’re suggesting what’s your point

By that I'm referring to people tied to having to work in jobs to subsist, there being no actual or perceived alternative for them to do better. The differential between low and high paid is a crime, and is ever growing. That's a long way from saying everyone has to have the same.

That's not slavery, that's capitalism.

There's a difference? I suppose in the world of Venn Diagrams, Capitalism is largely swallowed up by the Slavery, but then there's other systems that fall into the Slavery circle as well.

[ravenrover]

Maybe not but the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

Bit deep for me that one Syd

[idler]

Maybe not but the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

Sydney, you might not be able to do much to change the standards that you walk past but still maintain your own if they are higher.

[selby]

  Looks like there could be a modern kick back, part of  the fund he left  is used to fund bursaries for some students, the students union refused to comment when asked about the withdrawal of those bursaries which are being considered.

[wilts rover]

Who's that selby, Colston?

There wasn't a university in Bristol when he died?

[idler]

Cecil Rhodes at Oxford Wilts.