Let's talk about tonight's England game

[RoversAlias]

Henderson is a superb player, very underrated because he doesn't play a glamour position. He isn't supposed to do exciting skill moves like Coppinger so it's a daft comparison, that.

England are not interesting to watch but it isn't because of players like Henderson. The set up is uninspiring and in terms of top tier talent, England just don't have enough across the team. Centre half and goalkeeper are big problem areas at the moment.

[dickos1]

I watched the last half hour. Looked like a training session for Belgium. They sat back, let us have the ball and we didn't create a single real chance. By far the closest there was to a goal in that 30 minutes was from Belgium on the break.

When measured against the best, we are as far away from being serious top level contenders as we have been for most of the past 50 years. Because we simply do not produce enough players of a high enough quality.

By the way, we've spent the past 50 years blaming managers.

I’d disagree with that

We currently have players that would get into any other national side, there’s been plenty of occasions over the years where our squad has been very weak.
We’ve players playing for the top sides week in week out, that certainly wasn’t the case 15-20 years ago

[NickDRFC]

I watched the last half hour. Looked like a training session for Belgium. They sat back, let us have the ball and we didn't create a single real chance. By far the closest there was to a goal in that 30 minutes was from Belgium on the break.

When measured against the best, we are as far away from being serious top level contenders as we have been for most of the past 50 years. Because we simply do not produce enough players of a high enough quality.

By the way, we've spent the past 50 years blaming managers.

I’d disagree with that

We currently have players that would get into any other national side, there’s been plenty of occasions over the years where our squad has been very weak.
We’ve players playing for the top sides week in week out, that certainly wasn’t the case 15-20 years ago

15-20 years ago we had the “Golden Generation”. Campbell, Ferdinand, Neville, Cole, Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Owen, Rooney, all playing week in week out for Champions League clubs. I don’t think it was too dissimilar to these days.

[selby]

  RA and Dickos, what he has won surrounded by world class players from all around the world is not the Question, it is what do you think he would be like at Doncaster Rovers, would he stand out at our level?
  Whiteman does, Wellens and Stock did,Coppinger has more ball skills. At international level I think he is poor, and would get in very few continental international sides or top club sides.
  Liverpool have just screamed blue murder because a centre half has been injured, and will no doubt do the same because Salah is out, I haven't noticed their results change or a clamour when Henderson has missed games.
 He's just a water carrier.

[Rovers91]

Would Henderson stand out at our level  what kind of a question is that.

[NickDRFC]

  RA and Dickos, what he has won surrounded by world class players from all around the world is not the Question, it is what do you think he would be like at Doncaster Rovers, would he stand out at our level?
  Whiteman does, Wellens and Stock did,Coppinger has more ball skills. At international level I think he is poor, and would get in very few continental international sides or top club sides.
  Liverpool have just screamed blue murder because a centre half has been injured, and will no doubt do the same because Salah is out, I haven't noticed their results change or a clamour when Henderson has missed games.
 He's just a water carrier.

I don’t know if I can take anything you post going forward seriously. What a hill to die on.

[selby]

  Nick your welcome, the wife doesn't either.

[RoversAlias]

  RA and Dickos, what he has won surrounded by world class players from all around the world is not the Question, it is what do you think he would be like at Doncaster Rovers, would he stand out at our level?
  Whiteman does, Wellens and Stock did,Coppinger has more ball skills. At international level I think he is poor, and would get in very few continental international sides or top club sides.
  Liverpool have just screamed blue murder because a centre half has been injured, and will no doubt do the same because Salah is out, I haven't noticed their results change or a clamour when Henderson has missed games.
 He's just a water carrier.

You know how good Ben Whiteman is every week for us, with his passing, tackling, distribution, vision and movement? Plus the odd goal?

Jordan Henderson would make Whiteman look Sunday league by comparison if he played in League One.

You're well, well wide of the mark on this one.

[selby]

  Ai, as someone else pointed out our back line had a twenty five yard gap in front of them with the defensive midfielder missing last night.

[selby]

 England with Rice and Henderson in midfield remind me of people that drive Mercedes  A and B class cars, most of them don't realise their engines are from Renault and are the same as Clio and the Megane Renault cars.

[SoundbiteBarmyArmy]

Bored of England. Bored of Southgate. Bored of us playing Belgium.

Couldn't tell you the last time I watched a game! Probably world Cup 18.

However, I do really like the most recent kits - especially how the Three Lions are central.

[Campsall rover]

Bored of England. Bored of Southgate. Bored of us playing Belgium.

Couldn't tell you the last time I watched a game! Probably world Cup 18.

However, I do really like the most recent kits - especially how the Three Lions are central.

That is OK then SBA as long as the 3 lions are in the right place we have nothing to fear. 

Just kidding. 

[Campsall rover]

England with Rice and Henderson in midfield remind me of people that drive Mercedes  A and B class cars, most of them don't realise their engines are from Renault and are the same as Clio and the Megane Renault cars.

Hope they do not drive a Bentley or a Rolls Royce Brian they would seriously be batting far too high up the order.
Even though they could afford to of course on their salaries.

Do not think those engines are from Renault. 

[dickos1]

I watched the last half hour. Looked like a training session for Belgium. They sat back, let us have the ball and we didn't create a single real chance. By far the closest there was to a goal in that 30 minutes was from Belgium on the break.

When measured against the best, we are as far away from being serious top level contenders as we have been for most of the past 50 years. Because we simply do not produce enough players of a high enough quality.

By the way, we've spent the past 50 years blaming managers.

I’d disagree with that

We currently have players that would get into any other national side, there’s been plenty of occasions over the years where our squad has been very weak.
We’ve players playing for the top sides week in week out, that certainly wasn’t the case 15-20 years ago

15-20 years ago we had the “Golden Generation”. Campbell, Ferdinand, Neville, Cole, Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Owen, Rooney, all playing week in week out for Champions League clubs. I don’t think it was too dissimilar to these days.

Good point maybe I need to go a little further back to the early to mid 90s, late 80s.
We’ve currently got a few players that are the best players in the premier league, there’s definitely been many occasions within the last 50 years when that hasn’t been the case

[dickos1]

England with Rice and Henderson in midfield remind me of people that drive Mercedes  A and B class cars, most of them don't realise their engines are from Renault and are the same as Clio and the Megane Renault cars.

Henderson has much more ability than rice in my opinion,
Rice does a job for us and the majority of our decent chances last night came from him winning the ball back.
Henderson’s forward passing is as good as anyone in the premier league , not even mentioning his overall mentality and getting the best out of all the players around him

[selby]

  The standard of players available to England is a match for most, the team selection and the gelling of the players as a team has been the problem since Venables teams.
  The tendency now is to pick players for how they perform for their club sides every weekend, then try and fit them into a different set up and in some cases different positions, with players from certain teams being selected despite being out of form or inferior to players from less popular teams.
  Vardy was a case in point, and does right to stay away from the setup, Zaha another.

[selby]

  Paul, I know you are a mercedes fan, and I hate to disalusion you, but the A180 is a 1.5dci Renault engine also used to power the Dacia and Nissan. Snob.

[scawsby steve]

Did England play yesterday? Never even noticed. Was it another friendly behind closed doors? I remember when international matches felt important, not a meaningless interruption to the domestic calendar affecting 3 divisions. If we won I used to be pleased. If we lost I should be hurting today. Like all the other matches that are now behind a Sky paywall I've lost interest completely. They lost me, not the other way around, went into hiding. In the good old days when they listed an Englad team it had the parent club in brackets alongside. Not these days. I neither recognise nor have have a clue who half of them play for. Well done FA. Well done Sky. I ain't paying for something thats my birthright. If a game is that important to the nation it should be free to view. Sorry, you lost folk like me who are happy with the third division reality world.

What a brilliant post Bob.

[dickos1]

  The standard of players available to England is a match for most, the team selection and the gelling of the players as a team has been the problem since Venables teams.
  The tendency now is to pick players for how they perform for their club sides every weekend, then try and fit them into a different set up and in some cases different positions, with players from certain teams being selected despite being out of form or inferior to players from less popular teams.
  Vardy was a case in point, and does right to stay away from the setup, Zaha another.

We got to a World Cup semi final only 2 years ago and we were a Kane pass away from reaching the final.

As an England manager you have to pick players on their club form and also on how well they’ve done for England.
Not sure what else you can select the players on..

Zaha plays for the Ivory Coast and has done for 4/5 years now

[Campsall rover]

  Paul, I know you are a mercedes fan, and I hate to disalusion you, but the A180 is a 1.5dci Renault engine also used to power the Dacia and Nissan. Snob.

Well I am more of a BMW man really Brian. 9-2 to BMW since 1987

Snob. What me. Your thinking of someone else surely. 

By the way there is nothing wrong with Renault engines.
They do engines for Formula 1 cars.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I watched the last half hour. Looked like a training session for Belgium. They sat back, let us have the ball and we didn't create a single real chance. By far the closest there was to a goal in that 30 minutes was from Belgium on the break.

When measured against the best, we are as far away from being serious top level contenders as we have been for most of the past 50 years. Because we simply do not produce enough players of a high enough quality.

By the way, we've spent the past 50 years blaming managers.

I’d disagree with that

We currently have players that would get into any other national side, there’s been plenty of occasions over the years where our squad has been very weak.
We’ve players playing for the top sides week in week out, that certainly wasn’t the case 15-20 years ago

15-20 years ago we had the “Golden Generation”. Campbell, Ferdinand, Neville, Cole, Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Owen, Rooney, all playing week in week out for Champions League clubs. I don’t think it was too dissimilar to these days.

Agreed.

We told ourselves that we had a magnificent generation of talent. And when they came up against the best that the rest of the world had to offer, we found that they were in the lower half of the top 10.

And we blamed the manager for it.

[RoversAlias]

The failing of the so-called Golden Generation wasn't that they were overrated, it was that they couldn't be the team they needed to be to succeed on the international stage.

You cannot doubt the talent of Beckham, Scholes, Owen, Ferdinand, Terry, Gerrard, Cole, Lampard or Rooney. They all proved themselves to be world class at the highest level in club football but it just never came together for England.

To be fair we could all debate this topic for pages and pages!

[BillyStubbsTears]

But I DO doubt the talent of them, when compared against the very best of their generation in other countries.

I've said for years that we simply don't produce players who have the intelligence to cope with tournament football.

We produce club players who are excellent when drilled to do a job. But that doesn't translate to tournament football, where players don't fit into a drilled format.

In tournaments, players need to adapt rapidly. To unfamiliar team mates. To unfamiliar opponents. It needs footballing nous. And tournament after tournament, our best come up short.

Last night against Belgium was just a minor, but typical example.

Our players are good, but not exceptionally so. And when they are faced with the best, they hardly ever come up trumps. After half a century of it, you have to stop finding excuses and start looking at the fundamentals.

[DRNaith]

It does feel like we've moved to a time where a deflected goal is the new pinging it in the top corner from thirty yards, at every level.

[DMnumber4]

Remarkably we're more than 50 replies in and no one has mentioned the fact that England just can't seem to get the best out of Harry Kane.

He drops far too deep and didn't have pace options either side of him to stretch defenders, like he would at Spurs with Bale / Son / Moura.

No goals in six for the national side and no sign of it changing.

[DRNaith]

Remarkably we're more than 50 replies in and no one has mentioned the fact that England just can't seem to get the best out of Harry Kane.

He drops far too deep and didn't have pace options either side of him to stretch defenders, like he would at Spurs with Bale / Son / Moura.

No goals in six for the national side and no sign of it changing.

I understand what you're saying and agree with a lot of it, but if having a header cleared off the line isn't a sign of it changing, I'm not sure what would be.

[DMnumber4]

Poor again from Kane last night. He's everywhere but the penalty spot.

[selby]

  Without Henderson though, at least the ball got in the oppositions box.

[Filo]

A much more fluent display, its no coincidence that Grealish and Fodden were outstanding, play creative players and we are a much better team

[Metalmicky]

I thought Grealish was excellent, assured on the ball, direct when needed, looked dangerous and threatening.... IMO, he will be a feature of the England team for many years to come.  Manchester United must be wishing they had pushed the boat out for him in the last window...