Rovers Accounts

[DRNaith]

But genuine question, what are the ways and means?

[Redandwhite]

I don't blame tb for creating the shares . Its his money .

But to claim he will never get his money back is very wide of the mark .

It all depends on the negotiations with the buyers, and price per share .

If he didn't want the money back, he could pump it in without creating shares .
There's ways and means .  (For the record I don't like these ways )
I much prefer the way tb is doing it .

As explained further up the thread, just pumping money in creates a tax liability

Yes, partly why I think the club goes by it the right way .

[Redandwhite]

I don't blame tb for creating the shares . Its his money .

But to claim he will never get his money back is very wide of the mark .

It all depends on the negotiations with the buyers, and price per share .

If he didn't want the money back, he could pump it in without creating shares .
There's ways and means .  (For the record I don't like these ways )
I much prefer the way tb is doing it .

What are the ways and means that you don't like?

The way Derby, Wednesday and a few others go about it .

Selling the stadium to themselves, creating fake taxi companies, renting their office space to themselves for silly money .

It's dodgy, and they get stung for it .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Increasing the number of shares of a company doesn't increase the value of the company, it decreases the value of the existing shares.

[DRNaith]

I don't blame tb for creating the shares . Its his money .

But to claim he will never get his money back is very wide of the mark .

It all depends on the negotiations with the buyers, and price per share .

If he didn't want the money back, he could pump it in without creating shares .
There's ways and means .  (For the record I don't like these ways )
I much prefer the way tb is doing it .

What are the ways and means that you don't like?

The way Derby, Wednesday and a few others go about it .

Selling the stadium to themselves, creating fake taxi companies, renting their office space to themselves for silly money .

It's dodgy, and they get stung for it .

So it seems the only options are; straight forward investment (huge tax implication), dodgy ways that will get them in trouble, or purchasing shares. Thanks

[silent majority]

redandwhite

For somebody who claims he isn’t a financial illiterate you do spend a lot of time proving otherwise.

It was only a few weeks ago that you were proclaiming you didn’t understand Club Doncaster and the benefits it brings to the DRFC part of the club.

[Redandwhite]

Increasing the number of shares of a company doesn't increase the value of the company, it decreases the value of the existing shares.

Yes, but only has implications for other shareholders. 
If tb is acquiring more shares, the individual price of each share is less, but his overall share capital increases .

[Redandwhite]

redandwhite

For somebody who claims he isn’t a financial illiterate you do spend a lot of time proving otherwise.

It was only a few weeks ago that you were proclaiming you didn’t understand Club Doncaster and the benefits it brings to the DRFC part of the club.

OK, seems as you didn't answer at the time .
What benefit does club doncaster give to Doncaster Rovers, that Doncaster Rovers couldn't already do themselves ?

[MachoMadness]

Even by the standards of this forum this is a bizarre hill to die on.

[vaya]

redandwhite

For somebody who claims he isn’t a financial illiterate you do spend a lot of time proving otherwise.

It was only a few weeks ago that you were proclaiming you didn’t understand Club Doncaster and the benefits it brings to the DRFC part of the club.

OK, seems as you didn't answer at the time .
What benefit does club doncaster give to Doncaster Rovers, that Doncaster Rovers couldn't already do themselves ?

Perhaps you could use your financial literacy to outline to people why it isn't beneficial?

[Redandwhite]

redandwhite

For somebody who claims he isn’t a financial illiterate you do spend a lot of time proving otherwise.

It was only a few weeks ago that you were proclaiming you didn’t understand Club Doncaster and the benefits it brings to the DRFC part of the club.

OK, seems as you didn't answer at the time .
What benefit does club doncaster give to Doncaster Rovers, that Doncaster Rovers couldn't already do themselves ?

Perhaps you could use your financial literacy to outline to people why it isn't beneficial?

Logically it isn't  . How could it be ?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

We always have to bear in mind the benevolence of our owners who have an excellent track record of converting  debt to equity knowing that the only return of that investment would come from the sale of the company for that accumulated equity .

Which is what every owner/ benefactor does to make sure they get their money back when the club sells .

I have a suspicion it won't be far off, given the age of TB.

Are you drunk? TB has probably put £15m or more of his own money into the club, do you really think he converts that into shares with a hope of getting it back one day? I’ll tell you how much of that amount he will get back, zero pounds and zero pence.

I'm not drunk. Your deluded if you think otherwise .

Why convert it to shares ?
Why not write the loan off ?

You base your statement on nothing whatsoever .

I wasn't having a dig, just stating a fact. 

It would be incredibly bad business and accounting. The write off would produce a credit to p&l thus increase profit.  A £6m profit would incur a fairly hefty tax charge costing substantial sums.  It's standard business practice to convert to equity.  Whether they have 34million shares or 3 shares makes no odds they still get the same money at the point of sale (probably f**k all).

If the owners wanted to put money in with no strings attached, there are a multitude of ways of doing it without creating more shares .

They have created the shares to protect their money/ investment. 
Same as most owners, as when the club gets sold they have more shares to sell and negotiate the price of

What are these multitude of other methods that are simple and easy.

Forgive me but you seem to lack a grasp as to how share valuations etc work?

Your the one accusing me of being incorrect, so you prove to me how TB won't get his money back .

If your not aware of other ways of getting money into clubs, then your probably not as well read as some in the know .

Just let everyone know what these 'other ways' are so they can judge for themselves.

Seems the obvious thing to do.

This. I'm sure the owners would like to know how they can get their tens of millions of pounds back from a loss making company with next to no assets....

They will be aware, hence the shares .

It's down to the negotiations with the buyers, on the price of each share .
The club isn't a plc, so it's all in the negotiation .

Tb might not get all of his money back, but he's got a very good chance of getting most/all of it back , he could even make a profit .

I've worked on a number of sales and purchases of businesses.  Unless it's a plc the volume of shares is irrelevant. You'd never use that to consider any value of a company.  It's only really with public companies that matters and besides you'd then potentially bid at below the share price anyway.

You need to consider what a buyer would be buying and what value could be extracted. One of the strengths of our club is there isn't much to buy. The club doesn't own the stadium, the land and doesn't make any money.  Anyone buying rovers would do so for fun not money and they certainly wouldn't pay a fee (unless they are stupid).

You say it's negotiation. If the owner says I want 35 million quid for example, any buyer would probably fall over laughing.

I don't know your background but it doesn't seem to be this or a debate you could come close to winning.

[vaya]

redandwhite

For somebody who claims he isn’t a financial illiterate you do spend a lot of time proving otherwise.

It was only a few weeks ago that you were proclaiming you didn’t understand Club Doncaster and the benefits it brings to the DRFC part of the club.

OK, seems as you didn't answer at the time .
What benefit does club doncaster give to Doncaster Rovers, that Doncaster Rovers couldn't already do themselves ?

Perhaps you could use your financial literacy to outline to people why it isn't beneficial?

Logically it isn't  . How could it be ?

Could you explain the logic?

[Filo]

I don't blame tb for creating the shares . Its his money .

But to claim he will never get his money back is very wide of the mark .

It all depends on the negotiations with the buyers, and price per share .

If he didn't want the money back, he could pump it in without creating shares .
There's ways and means .  (For the record I don't like these ways )
I much prefer the way tb is doing it .

As explained further up the thread, just pumping money in creates a tax liability

Yes, partly why I think the club goes by it the right way .

I’ve got to be honest, I’m not sure what your point is in this thread, you’ve gone against your opening post on this

[DonnyNoel]

We always have to bear in mind the benevolence of our owners who have an excellent track record of converting  debt to equity knowing that the only return of that investment would come from the sale of the company for that accumulated equity .

Which is what every owner/ benefactor does to make sure they get their money back when the club sells .

I have a suspicion it won't be far off, given the age of TB.

Are you drunk? TB has probably put £15m or more of his own money into the club, do you really think he converts that into shares with a hope of getting it back one day? I’ll tell you how much of that amount he will get back, zero pounds and zero pence.

I'm not drunk. Your deluded if you think otherwise .

Why convert it to shares ?
Why not write the loan off ?

You base your statement on nothing whatsoever .

I wasn't having a dig, just stating a fact. 

It would be incredibly bad business and accounting. The write off would produce a credit to p&l thus increase profit.  A £6m profit would incur a fairly hefty tax charge costing substantial sums.  It's standard business practice to convert to equity.  Whether they have 34million shares or 3 shares makes no odds they still get the same money at the point of sale (probably f**k all).

If the owners wanted to put money in with no strings attached, there are a multitude of ways of doing it without creating more shares .

They have created the shares to protect their money/ investment. 
Same as most owners, as when the club gets sold they have more shares to sell and negotiate the price of

What are these multitude of other methods that are simple and easy.

Forgive me but you seem to lack a grasp as to how share valuations etc work?

Your the one accusing me of being incorrect, so you prove to me how TB won't get his money back .

If your not aware of other ways of getting money into clubs, then your probably not as well read as some in the know .

Just let everyone know what these 'other ways' are so they can judge for themselves.

Seems the obvious thing to do.

This. I'm sure the owners would like to know how they can get their tens of millions of pounds back from a loss making company with next to no assets....

They will be aware, hence the shares .

It's down to the negotiations with the buyers, on the price of each share .
The club isn't a plc, so it's all in the negotiation .

Tb might not get all of his money back, but he's got a very good chance of getting most/all of it back , he could even make a profit .

Make a profit on £10-15m invested in a third tier football club with <5k season ticket holders!? Who'd want to pay around £40m for a football club whose ceiling is probably as an almost self sufficient mid-table Championship club.

[scawsby steve]

We always have to bear in mind the benevolence of our owners who have an excellent track record of converting  debt to equity knowing that the only return of that investment would come from the sale of the company for that accumulated equity .

Which is what every owner/ benefactor does to make sure they get their money back when the club sells .

I have a suspicion it won't be far off, given the age of TB.

Are you drunk? TB has probably put £15m or more of his own money into the club, do you really think he converts that into shares with a hope of getting it back one day? I’ll tell you how much of that amount he will get back, zero pounds and zero pence.

I'm not drunk. Your deluded if you think otherwise .

Why convert it to shares ?
Why not write the loan off ?

You base your statement on nothing whatsoever .

I wasn't having a dig, just stating a fact. 

It would be incredibly bad business and accounting. The write off would produce a credit to p&amp;l thus increase profit.  A £6m profit would incur a fairly hefty tax charge costing substantial sums.  It's standard business practice to convert to equity.  Whether they have 34million shares or 3 shares makes no odds they still get the same money at the point of sale (probably f**k all).

If the owners wanted to put money in with no strings attached, there are a multitude of ways of doing it without creating more shares .

They have created the shares to protect their money/ investment. 
Same as most owners, as when the club gets sold they have more shares to sell and negotiate the price of

You my friend, are a financial illiterate.

1. I'm not
2. I'd rather be that than a social illiterate like you .

I personally find Martin to be anything but a social illiterate.

[ravenrover]

Come come RandW pot kettle etc with some of your posts

[Redandwhite]

I don't blame tb for creating the shares . Its his money .

But to claim he will never get his money back is very wide of the mark .

It all depends on the negotiations with the buyers, and price per share .

If he didn't want the money back, he could pump it in without creating shares .
There's ways and means .  (For the record I don't like these ways )
I much prefer the way tb is doing it .

As explained further up the thread, just pumping money in creates a tax liability

Yes, partly why I think the club goes by it the right way .

I’ve got to be honest, I’m not sure what your point is in this thread, you’ve gone against your opening post on this

My point is tb converts the loans to shares, when the club gets sold he will get money for those shares .
Could be less, could be more than what he bought them for .

Saying he won't get a penny back is wide of the mark .

Unless of course he bequeathed the club the someone, or some organisation .

I haven't intentionally gone away from opening post, maybe your interpretation of it has Filo.
Stand to be corrected though . 

[Redandwhite]

We always have to bear in mind the benevolence of our owners who have an excellent track record of converting  debt to equity knowing that the only return of that investment would come from the sale of the company for that accumulated equity .

Which is what every owner/ benefactor does to make sure they get their money back when the club sells .

I have a suspicion it won't be far off, given the age of TB.

Are you drunk? TB has probably put £15m or more of his own money into the club, do you really think he converts that into shares with a hope of getting it back one day? I’ll tell you how much of that amount he will get back, zero pounds and zero pence.

I'm not drunk. Your deluded if you think otherwise .

Why convert it to shares ?
Why not write the loan off ?

You base your statement on nothing whatsoever .

I wasn't having a dig, just stating a fact. 

It would be incredibly bad business and accounting. The write off would produce a credit to p&amp;amp;amp;amp;l thus increase profit.  A £6m profit would incur a fairly hefty tax charge costing substantial sums.  It's standard business practice to convert to equity.  Whether they have 34million shares or 3 shares makes no odds they still get the same money at the point of sale (probably f**k all).

If the owners wanted to put money in with no strings attached, there are a multitude of ways of doing it without creating more shares .

They have created the shares to protect their money/ investment. 
Same as most owners, as when the club gets sold they have more shares to sell and negotiate the price of

What are these multitude of other methods that are simple and easy.

Forgive me but you seem to lack a grasp as to how share valuations etc work?

Your the one accusing me of being incorrect, so you prove to me how TB won't get his money back .

If your not aware of other ways of getting money into clubs, then your probably not as well read as some in the know .

Just let everyone know what these 'other ways' are so they can judge for themselves.

Seems the obvious thing to do.

This. I'm sure the owners would like to know how they can get their tens of millions of pounds back from a loss making company with next to no assets....

They will be aware, hence the shares .

It's down to the negotiations with the buyers, on the price of each share .
The club isn't a plc, so it's all in the negotiation .

Tb might not get all of his money back, but he's got a very good chance of getting most/all of it back , he could even make a profit .

I've worked on a number of sales and purchases of businesses.  Unless it's a plc the volume of shares is irrelevant. You'd never use that to consider any value of a company.  It's only really with public companies that matters and besides you'd then potentially bid at below the share price anyway.

You need to consider what a buyer would be buying and what value could be extracted. One of the strengths of our club is there isn't much to buy. The club doesn't own the stadium, the land and doesn't make any money.  Anyone buying rovers would do so for fun not money and they certainly wouldn't pay a fee (unless they are stupid).

You say it's negotiation. If the owner says I want 35 million quid for example, any buyer would probably fall over laughing.

I don't know your background but it doesn't seem to be this or a debate you could come close to winning.

OK thanks. 
But what specifically have I said that isn't factually correct ?

[Muttley]

R&W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB & co are giving up their millions being returned.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

You haven't stated any facts. You have only made assumptions and seem to be aware of what TBs intentions are when and if someone comes in the 'buy the club'.

[Guernsey Exile]

Hoden has done a summary in the DFP;
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-accounts-latest-filings-and-why-rovers-ps34m-losses-are-nothing-to-be-concerned-about-3292303

So is Mike C still a shareholder? I thought he had moved on? Also, does he still live in Jersey?

[EasyforDennis]

Hoden has done a summary in the DFP;
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-accounts-latest-filings-and-why-rovers-ps34m-losses-are-nothing-to-be-concerned-about-3292303

So is Mike C still a shareholder? I thought he had moved on? Also, does he still live in Jersey?

Dont know if he is still a shareholder but yes he still lives in Jersey.

[Muttley]

Mike Collett resigned as a director in 2012.

[DRNaith]

I don't blame tb for creating the shares . Its his money .

But to claim he will never get his money back is very wide of the mark .

It all depends on the negotiations with the buyers, and price per share .

If he didn't want the money back, he could pump it in without creating shares .
There's ways and means .  (For the record I don't like these ways )
I much prefer the way tb is doing it .

As explained further up the thread, just pumping money in creates a tax liability

Yes, partly why I think the club goes by it the right way .

I’ve got to be honest, I’m not sure what your point is in this thread, you’ve gone against your opening post on this

My point is tb converts the loans to shares, when the club gets sold he will get money for those shares .
Could be less, could be more than what he bought them for .

Saying he won't get a penny back is wide of the mark .

Unless of course he bequeathed the club the someone, or some organisation .

I haven't intentionally gone away from opening post, maybe your interpretation of it has Filo.
Stand to be corrected though . 

No, saying he can't get any money back would be wide of the mark, saying he won't is a matter of opinion and the closer someone is to the situation, the more accurate their opinion is likely to be.

[Redandwhite]

R&W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB & co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

[vaya]

R&amp;W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB &amp; co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

How much do you think those shares are currently worth each - a round number will do.

[Redandwhite]

R&amp;W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB &amp; co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

How much do you think those shares are currently worth each - a round number will do.

That's not my job to calculate that, it's negotiable. 

The point is that the shares have a value .
Depending on any future negotiations, and where we are in the football pyramid will determine their value .

Tb might get some/all/none of his money back is the point . He COULD even make a profit, but I imagine not if we're in league 1 or 2 at the time

[vaya]

R&amp;amp;W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB &amp;amp; co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

How much do you think those shares are currently worth each - a round number will do.

That's not my job to calculate that, it's negotiable. 

The point is that the shares have a value .
Depending on any future negotiations, and where we are in the football pyramid will determine their value .

Tb might get some/all/none of his money back is the point . He COULD even make a profit, but I imagine not if we're in league 1 or 2 at the time

How much do you think shares in a loss-making third tier football club are worth?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Converting loans into equity doesn't increase the value of Rovers to a buyer. They've chucked millions into Rovers and the value of the club stays the same so any new money they chuck into Rovers they won't get back.