Rovers Accounts

[NickDRFC]

These are hypothetical numbers, but say before this debt to equity conversion Doncaster Rovers is worth £5m and there are 100,000 shares. Each share is worth £50.

After the conversion, there are 120,000 shares. Which do you think is the most likely scenario:

1. The value of each share is still £50 and the club’s valuation has magically increased to £6m
2. The value of each share is diluted to £41.67 and the club’s valuation remains £5m

[since-1969]

Increasing the number of shares of a company doesn't increase the value of the company, it decreases the value of the existing shares.

So how much is a single share worth ?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Increasing the number of shares of a company doesn't increase the value of the company, it decreases the value of the existing shares.

So how much is a single share worth ?

The value of the company divided by the number of shares. That's what they're worth each. As Nick pointed out.

[turnbull for england]

This thread has been linked to the Oxford English dictionaries phrases section, linked directly to " there's none as blind as those that won't see"

[Muttley]

R&W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB & co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

Debt has a defined value (and, normally, defined repayment terms).

Equity has a value that is ultimately determined by what someone is prepared to pay for it - as everyone else on this thread realises, that value is most likely a very low figure, definitely nothing like the millions that has been sunk into the club.

[since-1969]

Increasing the number of shares of a company doesn't increase the value of the company, it decreases the value of the existing shares.

So how much is a single share worth ?

The value of the company divided by the number of shares. That's what they're worth each. As Nick pointed out.

Q) if Rovers were to apply to float on the stock market ..would it sink ?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

A floatation is as likely as TB taking anything from his shareholding.

More likely at some point, his shares might be transferred to another shareholder for safekeeping.

 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Increasing the number of shares of a company doesn't increase the value of the company, it decreases the value of the existing shares.

So how much is a single share worth ?

The value of the company divided by the number of shares. That's what they're worth each. As Nick pointed out.

Q) if Rovers were to apply to float on the stock market ..would it sink ?

It would meant hat whoever decided to turn Rovers into a public company hadn't learnt the lessons of other football clubs doing so. And as the only real reason for doing so would be to issue more shares to raise capital as long as the current owners are happy to raise that capital themselves there's no reason to seek outside finance. Rovers might even have a rule that any new share issue has to be offered to the current shareholders first anyway.

[Redandwhite]

R&W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB & co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

Debt has a defined value (and, normally, defined repayment terms).

Equity has a value that is ultimately determined by what someone is prepared to pay for it - as everyone else on this thread realises, that value is most likely a very low figure, definitely nothing like the millions that has been sunk into the club.

Seem to be getting somewhere here .

Tb has shares

The shares have a value

If tb sells, he might make a loss, break even or make a profit. 

So a blanket statement of he won't get a penny back isn't correct .

[DonnyNoel]

Oh sweet Jesus.

[vaya]

R&W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB & co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

Debt has a defined value (and, normally, defined repayment terms).

Equity has a value that is ultimately determined by what someone is prepared to pay for it - as everyone else on this thread realises, that value is most likely a very low figure, definitely nothing like the millions that has been sunk into the club.

Seem to be getting somewhere here .

Tb has shares

The shares have a value

If tb sells, he might make a loss, break even or make a profit. 

So a blanket statement of he won't get a penny back isn't correct .

How much do you think shares in a loss-making third tier club that doesn't own it's own ground are currently worth? - round numbers will do.

[Glyn_Wigley]

R&W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB & co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

Debt has a defined value (and, normally, defined repayment terms).

Equity has a value that is ultimately determined by what someone is prepared to pay for it - as everyone else on this thread realises, that value is most likely a very low figure, definitely nothing like the millions that has been sunk into the club.

Seem to be getting somewhere here .

Tb has shares

The shares have a value

If tb sells, he might make a loss, break even or make a profit. 

So a blanket statement of he won't get a penny back isn't correct .

Do you actually believe that every year that they put £2m into the club the value of their shares goes up £2m too? *facepalm*

[roversdude]

Are you mounting a takeover bid 1969

[since-1969]

 . We were often told that the club doesn’t have any debts ? Well £34m ploughed and still growing without promotion to the Championship isn’t going to alter or repaid soon through the turnstiles!!
The board are stubborn but practical. I’m very disappointed at last seasons finish as I do believe it was a huge opportunity missed and promotion would have gone a long way to helping their cash flow and they must know that they threw it away . Good luck to Wellens but I’ve had my last season !!

[Campsall rover]

. We were often told that the club doesn’t have any debts ? Well £34m ploughed and still growing without promotion to the Championship isn’t going to alter or repaid soon through the turnstiles!!
The board are stubborn but practical. I’m very disappointed at last seasons finish as I do believe it was a huge opportunity missed and promotion would have gone a long way to helping their cash flow and they must know that they threw it away . Good luck to Wellens but I’ve had my last season !!

True colours shown with that last line. Goodbye then. Think you may well miss another golden era for the club. That’s your loss.

[Glyn_Wigley]

. We were often told that the club doesn’t have any debts ? Well £34m ploughed and still growing without promotion to the Championship isn’t going to alter or repaid soon through the turnstiles!!
The board are stubborn but practical. I’m very disappointed at last seasons finish as I do believe it was a huge opportunity missed and promotion would have gone a long way to helping their cash flow and they must know that they threw it away . Good luck to Wellens but I’ve had my last season !!

£34 million converted into equity ISN'T a debt!!

[ravenrover]

. We were often told that the club doesn’t have any debts ? Well £34m ploughed and still growing without promotion to the Championship isn’t going to alter or repaid soon through the turnstiles!!
The board are stubborn but practical. I’m very disappointed at last seasons finish as I do believe it was a huge opportunity missed and promotion would have gone a long way to helping their cash flow and they must know that they threw it away . Good luck to Wellens but I’ve had my last season !!

Does that also mean you are finished with this forum? Please!

[Filo]

. We were often told that the club doesn’t have any debts ? Well £34m ploughed and still growing without promotion to the Championship isn’t going to alter or repaid soon through the turnstiles!!
The board are stubborn but practical. I’m very disappointed at last seasons finish as I do believe it was a huge opportunity missed and promotion would have gone a long way to helping their cash flow and they must know that they threw it away . Good luck to Wellens but I’ve had my last season !!

I’m beyond words!

[Janso]

Mad how wilfully ignorant people are willing to be just to make a point that is not and will never be correct.

[Redandwhite]

R&W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB & co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

Debt has a defined value (and, normally, defined repayment terms).

Equity has a value that is ultimately determined by what someone is prepared to pay for it - as everyone else on this thread realises, that value is most likely a very low figure, definitely nothing like the millions that has been sunk into the club.

Seem to be getting somewhere here .

Tb has shares

The shares have a value

If tb sells, he might make a loss, break even or make a profit. 

So a blanket statement of he won't get a penny back isn't correct .

Do you actually believe that every year that they put £2m into the club the value of their shares goes up £2m too? *facepalm*

Christ all f**king mighty .

That's not the point I'm making, engage your brain and re read my posts .

[Redandwhite]

R&W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB & co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

Debt has a defined value (and, normally, defined repayment terms).

Equity has a value that is ultimately determined by what someone is prepared to pay for it - as everyone else on this thread realises, that value is most likely a very low figure, definitely nothing like the millions that has been sunk into the club.

Seem to be getting somewhere here .

Tb has shares

The shares have a value

If tb sells, he might make a loss, break even or make a profit. 

So a blanket statement of he won't get a penny back isn't correct .

How much do you think shares in a loss-making third tier club that doesn't own it's own ground are currently worth? - round numbers will do.

My god, wake up .

Re read my posts and understand the point I'm making .

[vaya]

R&W, you've actually got it completely the wrong way round - debt essentially needs to be repaid, shares have a value which is determined by the value of the company and a loss making 3rd tier football club with no assets is effectively worth noting.

By converting the debt to equity, TB & co are giving up their millions being returned.

Not sure I follow that .

He's loaned the club money, effectively got paid back in shares .
Tb has now more shares which have a value, which is negotiable to any future buyer .

Part of the negotiable value, is the future potential of the club .

Again to say tb won't get a penny back is simply wrong .

Debt has a defined value (and, normally, defined repayment terms).

Equity has a value that is ultimately determined by what someone is prepared to pay for it - as everyone else on this thread realises, that value is most likely a very low figure, definitely nothing like the millions that has been sunk into the club.

Seem to be getting somewhere here .

Tb has shares

The shares have a value

If tb sells, he might make a loss, break even or make a profit. 

So a blanket statement of he won't get a penny back isn't correct .

How much do you think shares in a loss-making third tier club that doesn't own it's own ground are currently worth? - round numbers will do.

My god, wake up .

Re read my posts and understand the point I'm making .

How much do you think shares in a loss-making third tier club that doesn't own its own ground and has faced severe reduction in income over the last 16 months are worth? Just a number.

[Redandwhite]

. We were often told that the club doesn’t have any debts ? Well £34m ploughed and still growing without promotion to the Championship isn’t going to alter or repaid soon through the turnstiles!!
The board are stubborn but practical. I’m very disappointed at last seasons finish as I do believe it was a huge opportunity missed and promotion would have gone a long way to helping their cash flow and they must know that they threw it away . Good luck to Wellens but I’ve had my last season !!

£34 million converted into equity ISN'T a debt!!

Exactly, it's share VALUE

[ravenrover]

And by increasing the number of their shares probably reducing their VALUE

[Janso]

He's either too stubborn to realise/admit he hasn't got a scooby or he's actively trolling. Can probably harbour a guess.

[silent majority]

This is ridiculous. Somebody on here has moved his position 180 degrees since it was pointed out what a financial misunderstanding he was making. From suggesting that TB was manoeuvring the finances to suit himself it’s now apparent that that’s not happening and no realistic argument will say otherwise.

Let’s not forget the VSC have  approx 120,000 shares in Club Doncaster, bought at a cost of approx £120,000.

Today that investment is worth virtually nothing. So much for redandwhites argument about being in control of share value.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

This is ridiculous. Somebody on here has moved his position 180 degrees since it was pointed out what a financial misunderstanding he was making. From suggesting that TB was manoeuvring the finances to suit himself it’s now apparent that that’s not happening and no realistic argument will say otherwise.

Let’s not forget the VSC have  approx 120,000 shares in Club Doncaster, bought at a cost of approx £120,000.

Today that investment is worth virtually nothing. So much for redandwhites argument about being in control of share value.

Ah but you'll negotiate them to 10 million quid a share so it's all good.

[scawsby steve]

. We were often told that the club doesn’t have any debts ? Well £34m ploughed and still growing without promotion to the Championship isn’t going to alter or repaid soon through the turnstiles!!
The board are stubborn but practical. I’m very disappointed at last seasons finish as I do believe it was a huge opportunity missed and promotion would have gone a long way to helping their cash flow and they must know that they threw it away . Good luck to Wellens but I’ve had my last season !!

You say they threw it away. I take it by "they", you mean the board? If so, can you explain in detail why you think that?

You see, from where I'm sitting the season was thrown away by crap signings in January by an overrated manager who'd had his head turned, and a load of loan players who didn't give a f*ck about the club.

[steve@dcfd]

. We were often told that the club doesn’t have any debts ? Well £34m ploughed and still growing without promotion to the Championship isn’t going to alter or repaid soon through the turnstiles!!
The board are stubborn but practical. I’m very disappointed at last seasons finish as I do believe it was a huge opportunity missed and promotion would have gone a long way to helping their cash flow and they must know that they threw it away . Good luck to Wellens but I’ve had my last season !!

You say they threw it away. I take it by "they", you mean the board? If so, can you explain in detail why you think that?

You see, from where I'm sitting the season was thrown away by crap signings in January by an overrated manager who'd had his head turned, and a load of loan players who didn't give a f*ck about the club.

What we didn’t know is last years budget had been reduced by 23%. Therefore loan players may have the only way to get better players in. Was it that DM could only use the value of Whiteman wages to get in two players that’s why we got Bogle and Bostock(who accepted less than he and his agent wanted).
(

[scawsby steve]

. We were often told that the club doesn’t have any debts ? Well £34m ploughed and still growing without promotion to the Championship isn’t going to alter or repaid soon through the turnstiles!!
The board are stubborn but practical. I’m very disappointed at last seasons finish as I do believe it was a huge opportunity missed and promotion would have gone a long way to helping their cash flow and they must know that they threw it away . Good luck to Wellens but I’ve had my last season !!

You say they threw it away. I take it by "they", you mean the board? If so, can you explain in detail why you think that?

You see, from where I'm sitting the season was thrown away by crap signings in January by an overrated manager who'd had his head turned, and a load of loan players who didn't give a f*ck about the club.

What we didn’t know is last years budget had been reduced by 23%. Therefore loan players may have the only way to get better players in. Was it that DM could only use the value of Whiteman wages to get in two players that’s why we got Bogle and Bostock(who accepted less than he and his agent wanted).
(

We can't really speculate on the wages of Bogle and Bostock, because none of us know exactly what they're on.

What we do know is that they were both crap, and the board can't be blamed for that.