David Cameron

[BillyStubbsTears]

£7.5m payment for two years of part-time work for a failing company which collapsed with £320m of Govt-backed loans, with thee and me being left to pick up the tab.

[normal rules]

Cameron’s cronies.
And one of the companies his cronies were propping up were linked to the steel industry with 4000 uk workers. And they knew the company could never afford to repay their debts.
They are all as bad as each other. Conservative or Labour. Money, power, influence, corruption.

[SydneyRover]

privileged, entitled and unaccountable.

[BillyStubbsTears]

NR
If they are all as bad as each other, could you point out what Gordon Brown has done that matches this?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Or for that matter, Theresa May.

Point being they are NOT all as bad as each other. But if you just let a glib nonsense idea like that take hold, there's no traction against the ones who really ARE amoral, pocket-stuffing Kitsons. Just like if you claim all politicians lie all the time, there's no defence against ending up with a PM or a President who truly DO lie all the time.

[normal rules]

NR
If they are all as bad as each other, could you point out what Gordon Brown has done that matches this?

Perhaps you should direct this question at his Downing Street spin doctor Damian McBride.
I do wonder why Brown, when he was Chancellor decided to sell off a large chunk of uk gold reserves at what has been estimated to be a loss of £7billion to the uk taxpayer. The official reason for selling the gold reserves was to reduce the portfolio risk of the UK's reserves by diversifying away from gold. We will never know the real reason, or maybe panorama may do some digging into this one day too.

[normal rules]

Wasn’t Theresa May accused of trying to bribe Labour MPs to back her Brexit deal  after she announced a £1.6 billion fund for struggling communities.?

[SydneyRover]

The main reasons why your examples are not equivalent are that neither Brown nor May did of those things for personal benefit.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The main reasons why your examples are not equivalent are that neither Brown nor May did of those things for personal benefit.

Well, you're expecting us to believe that Brown siphoned off money from the gold sale into his own pocket right under the noses of the whole Treasury. What makes you confident about that?

[SydneyRover]

The main reasons why your examples are not equivalent are that neither Brown nor May did of those things for personal benefit.

Well, you're expecting us to believe that Brown siphoned off money from the gold sale into his own pocket right under the noses of the whole Treasury. What makes you confident about that?

As you are making the accusation Glyn isn't it beholden upon yourself to show that he did?

[Glyn_Wigley]

The main reasons why your examples are not equivalent are that neither Brown nor May did of those things for personal benefit.

Well, you're expecting us to believe that Brown siphoned off money from the gold sale into his own pocket right under the noses of the whole Treasury. What makes you confident about that?

As you are making the accusation Glyn isn't it beholden upon yourself to show that he did?

I'm not making an accusation, I'm showing how stupid the accusation is in the first place.

[SydneyRover]

It wasn't clear Glyn, my mistake.

[Glyn_Wigley]

No, I've just noticed, it's my mistake. I intended to quote and reply to the post normal rules deleted while I was trying to quote it.

[normal rules]

Read my post again. I wonder. I make no allegation.
It is still seen as the biggest fiscal blunder this country has ever stumbled into in modern times.
The official reason for it is cited.
That huge sum of money from the gold sale would have been brokered through someone, some company. It would have generated vast sums of fees and commission somewhere. Or maybe it wasn’t for monetary benefit. Perhaps it was for a pecuniary advantage.
We will never know.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What? You mean neither The Treasury nor The Bank Of England would have handled the sale of gold...the two largest financial institutions in the country?

[SydneyRover]

Read my post again. I wonder. I make no allegation.
It is still seen as the biggest fiscal blunder this country has ever stumbled into in modern times.
The official reason for it is cited.
That huge sum of money from the gold sale would have been brokered through someone, some company. It would have generated vast sums of fees and commission somewhere. Or maybe it wasn’t for monetary benefit. Perhaps it was for a pecuniary advantage.
We will never know.

NR bst challenged you to show how either Brown or May are the same as Cameron in the Greensill affair, all you have to do is show why they are the same, the examples you have shown are clearly not the same, Cameron did it for his own benefit out of office using the connections he made in office.

[wilts rover]

NR
If they are all as bad as each other, could you point out what Gordon Brown has done that matches this?

Perhaps you should direct this question at his Downing Street spin doctor Damian McBride.
I do wonder why Brown, when he was Chancellor decided to sell off a large chunk of uk gold reserves at what has been estimated to be a loss of £7billion to the uk taxpayer. The official reason for selling the gold reserves was to reduce the portfolio risk of the UK's reserves by diversifying away from gold. We will never know the real reason, or maybe panorama may do some digging into this one day too.

Decisions made whilst a member of the UK government are the same as an ex-PM using his political influence for personal gain. In this instance with a company whose activities bordered on the illegal and whose actual knowledge of those remains 'vague'.

But you think that is 'the same'?

[normal rules]

I believe the gold was bought up by mainly China and Russia.
You don’t have to look too far to see Brown is quite happy to rub shoulders with the Russians.

Brown was paid more than £120,000 for appearing at a four-hour conference – a rate of £500 a minute for speaking to financiers in Russia in February 2012, although he was said not to have personally taken 'a penny'.

He was a guest speaker at the Russia Forum, Moscow's equivalent to the World Economic Forum in Switzerland, where Russian President Vladimir Putin was also speaking.

The event was jointly sponsored by the Kremlin-owned Sberbank and the country's oldest privately owned investment bank, Troika Dialog.

Mr Brown was given £124,494, as well as expenses of £4,000 for flights and accommodation for him and staff.

If you think corruption at the highest level is as simple as putting your hand in the till, then I waste my time in voicing my opinion on here.
It’s subtle. Very subtle. And it happens over time, so as it can be disguised and shrouded in what appear to be completely legitimate transactions.

Of course, it may be that Gordon Brown had just lost complete control of all his sense when he was in charge of the countries purse strings. And I’m deluded.

[SydneyRover]

With hindsight the sale of gold was a financial blunder, you are now in the process of hair splitting, Gordon Brown wasn't corrupt unless you have proof, which you can take to the police. If there was proof wouldn't you think the tory party would have been all over it like a rash?

[normal rules]

Proof? I have no proof of course. This is my personal feeling and opinion, but based on knowledge and experience of how this occurs at every level of business.
No smoke without fire……

Without boring you with my world, might I suggest you read up on placement, layering and integration, in the context of money laundering.
Money laundering is one of the most difficult aspects of crime to detect.
You know or believe or suspect it’s there. It’s just very, very difficult to prove.
Those that are involved at the highest level know this.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Strange how these discussions go.

You have clear documented evidence of what Cameron has done, and a suggestion with absolutely zero evidence whatsoever of what Brown might theoretically have done being suggested as somehow being equal.

[normal rules]

At no point have I said these persons are equal in their actions. I merely opine on my thoughts about their possible conduct, in the way I see it, in relation to possible corruption. For their own benefit or not.
My comment about them all being the same was sweeping. “They are all as bad as each other” I admit, is an overused and generalised comment.
I generalised.
I trust none of them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

But as I say NR, that is a highly dangerous approach, because it doesn't differentiate between scales of mendacity or avarice. and it effectively leads to a lack of control over politicians that are highly corrupt or totally disengaged from objective truth.

As with everything, there is a very broad spectrum of (for want of a better word) "misbehaviour". Some of it is honest mistakes. Some of it is wrong but minor. Some of it is basic incompetence. Some of it comes from fundamentally wrong understanding. Some of it is deliberately misleading. Some of it dangerously corrosive to society. I think it's very important that we differentiate and really hammer the transgressors at the later end of that list, not lump them all in the same pot.

[belton rover]

But as I say NR, that is a highly dangerous approach, because it doesn't differentiate between scales of mendacity or avarice. and it effectively leads to a lack of control over politicians that are highly corrupt or totally disengaged from objective truth.

As with everything, there is a very broad spectrum of (for want of a better word) "misbehaviour". Some of it is honest mistakes. Some of it is wrong but minor. Some of it is basic incompetence. Some of it comes from fundamentally wrong understanding. Some of it is deliberately misleading. Some of it dangerously corrosive to society. I think it's very important that we differentiate and really hammer the transgressors at the later end of that list, not lump them all in the same pot.

Are you still talking about politicians, or have you moved the discussion to posters on here?

[belton rover]

Cameron is a disgrace. From his Brexit campaign to this.

[Not Now Kato]

You don’t have to look too far to see Brown is quite happy to rub shoulders with the Russians.

You are aware, that Boris Johnson appointed a Russian friend of his, (with connections to the KGB), to the House of Lords, aren't you?
 
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/evgeny-lebedev-in-house-of-lords-6855550
 

 

[normal rules]

Ah yes, Baron Lebedev of Hampton in our London Borough of Richmond upon Thames and of Siberia in the Russian Federation”.

Nepotism at its worst.

[River Don]

I genuinely think Brown simply bought into the narrative at the time that gold was a barberous relic and wanted to get something for it before it was worth next to nothing.

He should have been smarter than that.

[drfchound]

Yeah but it was only a few million quid that you and me are now paying for.

[River Don]

Yeah but it was only a few billion quid that you and me are now paying for.

Sorry, I don't want to make light of it. It was a stupid mistake. I thought so at the time.