Fuel shortages, a return to autumn 2000?

[normal rules]

Bp and shell announcing today that some of their filling stations will not be receiving resupply for a while.
The govt are saying not to panic.
We have just returned from a trip to Suffolk and Essex and I’ve seen (today) diesel as high as £1.44.9 per litre. Which I think is as high as it’s been for a long time. (Shell garage at services on a14 /a140 junction)
The continuing covid issue seems to have smoke screened the increasing price of fuel and I can’t help but think that without the distraction, there would be protests once again.

[SydneyRover]

Not good news NR, unfortunately it's not good nor news.

''This is what market failure looks like. There’s a shortage of HGV drivers in an economy that relies on moving mountains of heavy goods. Road haulage companies complain bitterly that they can’t recruit; operators are turning business away for lack of drivers.

Yet at the same time there are large numbers of the unskilled, especially the young, who need training to get a job, or an upgrade from zero-hours, low-paid work to something better. Easy, you might think, to connect the two – but it’s not happening, according to last week’s report from the House of Commons transport committee.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/02/industrial-failure-uk-lorry-trade-truck-driver-squalor-low-pay-no-unions

Aug 2016

The Road Haulage Association says it is short of 60,000 drivers, with an ageing workforce shedding another 40,000 by next year.


We'll Get the Country Moving

Vote Tory

[belton rover]

The majority of the shortage is due to training centres closing during the Covid crisis/lock downs.

Bloody Tory Government- why couldn’t they have just kept the country moving?

[normal rules]

There are many reasons we have a shortage. Retirement, covid, brexit, pay, and just plainly that people don’t want to drive lorries. I did it for 6 weeks in between careers. Shit hours, lonely work, unhealthy, crap pay.

[SydneyRover]

There are many reasons we have a shortage. Retirement, covid, brexit, pay, and just plainly that people don’t want to drive lorries. I did it for 6 weeks in between careers. Shit hours, lonely work, unhealthy, crap pay.

Nothing like a first hand account NR, when you read about the life of a trucker it's like they are lepers, no facilities having to take a shit in a layby, nowhere to have a shower, sleeping in the cab and low pay to boot.

This has been going on for years, the excerpt and link above I posted is 5 years old and shows the government has done absolutely nothing.

Brexit, Covid and the downturn in the economy probably helped the government by masking over the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdHg4QEmBvk

[normal rules]

The average age of a trucker in 2021 is 55. It’s not the most appealing of jobs. I can’t see there would be many 21 yr olds chomping at the bit to do this for a living . And the way drivers that have gone back to the eu are reported to have done so because they have better facilities in Europe for such and better pay too .

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Not to mention the tax benefits many used have been closed on top of all that.

You have to laugh though, BP closed 5 garages for lack of fuel accross the country.  That gets reported and we have mass panic. Ridiculous.

I have to get my fuel from BP too (fuelcard) but most won't use their garages given the price.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The average age of a trucker in 2031 is 55. It’s not the most appealing of jobs. I can’t see there would be many 21 yr olds chomping at the bit to do this for a living . And the way drivers that have gone back to the eu are reported to have done so because they have better facilities in Europe for such and better pay too .

It's symptomatic of a very log term structural problem that we have in our economy and society. Will Hutton wrote about it thirty years ago in "The State We're In" and not much has changed since. The basic issue is that our economy is run on the principle that shareholder value is sacrosanct. Companies have a duty to maximise the returns to shareholders. They don't have a duty to consider the strategic national interest, or the conditions of their workers, or the effect that their working practices have on people's lives. So, understandably, companies typically make decisions that maximise their share prices and dividends.

This explains why we are having such severe problems with the gas price spike. Nowhere else in Europe is having this problem to the same level, because they all have bigger stores of gas, precisely to help them ride out short term price spikes.

We used to have large stores. But 10 years ago, Centrica cut its storage capability by 70%, on the grounds that it was costing them too much and hitting profits. Short term company interest over long term national strategic interest.

There are two ways you can curb the power of companies to make these decisions only in their own interests. The first is strong unions. Ones that can hold companies to task over pay and working conditions. So that people have better work-life balance and receive a fairer slice of the pie. But unions have been emasculated for 40 years. So that control on companies has gone. The second is Government regulation to force companies to act in the national interest. But we've lived in an age where  Governments of both colours have wanted to rein back their involvement and let the market get on with it. And this is where we end up.

If anyone is interested in this, I can't recommend Hutton's book highly enough. It's still as relevant now as when he wrote it.

[River Don]

Just had to queue for fuel, there's a lot of unnecessary panic buying going on. I was genuinely panicking as I was low and I need a full tank to drive to London this weekend.

Aren't a lot of lorry drivers from Eastern Europe these days because British workers, understandably don't fancy doing it anymore? I imagine Brexit is at least part of the problem. And the effect of Covid all on top of the underlying structural problems.

It's just typical of the UK, there's an absolute unwillingness to do any long term strategic planning in anything. It all runs on rubber bands and safety pins. When a rubber band snaps, we're screwed.

[SydneyRover]

This winter could be very cold for a lot of people.

[SydneyRover]

And hot off the press

''The UK transport secretary, Grant Shapps, said he would “move heaven and earth” to solve the nationwide shortage of truck drivers that threatens fuel supplies at some petrol stations, adding that motorists should not panic as the problem would be “smoothed out relatively quickly”

Right then just leave it to Shapps.

[normal rules]

The army going to be called in to drive some lorries by some accounts.

[idler]

The average age of a trucker in 2031 is 55. It’s not the most appealing of jobs. I can’t see there would be many 21 yr olds chomping at the bit to do this for a living . And the way drivers that have gone back to the eu are reported to have done so because they have better facilities in Europe for such and better pay too .

It's symptomatic of a very log term structural problem that we have in our economy and society. Will Hutton wrote about it thirty years ago in "The State We're In" and not much has changed since. The basic issue is that our economy is run on the principle that shareholder value is sacrosanct. Companies have a duty to maximise the returns to shareholders. They don't have a duty to consider the strategic national interest, or the conditions of their workers, or the effect that their working practices have on people's lives. So, understandably, companies typically make decisions that maximise their share prices and dividends.

This explains why we are having such severe problems with the gas price spike. Nowhere else in Europe is having this problem to the same level, because they all have bigger stores of gas, precisely to help them ride out short term price spikes.

We used to have large stores. But 10 years ago, Centrica cut its storage capability by 70%, on the grounds that it was costing them too much and hitting profits. Short term company interest over long term national strategic interest.

There are two ways you can curb the power of companies to make these decisions only in their own interests. The first is strong unions. Ones that can hold companies to task over pay and working conditions. So that people have better work-life balance and receive a fairer slice of the pie. But unions have been emasculated for 40 years. So that control on companies has gone. The second is Government regulation to force companies to act in the national interest. But we've lived in an age where  Governments of both colours have wanted to rein back their involvement and let the market get on with it. And this is where we end up.

If anyone is interested in this, I can't recommend Hutton's book highly enough. It's still as relevant now as when he wrote it.

In the late 70s to mid 80s we were contracted to Northern Gas to install telemetry equipment. This allowed them to manage their gas supplies and stores gas in their large high pressure mains as well as the large gas holders.
They did this because British Gas asked how much gas they would require and charge them accordingly. If there was a severe winter or cold snap and they had to get more gas then the price for the extra supplies went up dramatically. This had the effect of making Northern Gas very aware of what the costs were if they underestimated demand by much.
Surely the same principles apply now but the extra charge is just lumped on to the customer.

[Monkcaster_Rover]

Every single petrol station I drove past on my way home from Leeds today was rammed. Motorway stations included.

Nation full of bottlers.

[normal rules]

My op was misleading, a bit like most of the daily papers, as there is no fuel shortage per say. Just a shortage of drivers that is affecting a handful of filling  stations.
Chaos round where we live with ques at every station.
Madness.

[tyke1962]

The average age of a trucker in 2031 is 55. It’s not the most appealing of jobs. I can’t see there would be many 21 yr olds chomping at the bit to do this for a living . And the way drivers that have gone back to the eu are reported to have done so because they have better facilities in Europe for such and better pay too .

It's symptomatic of a very log term structural problem that we have in our economy and society. Will Hutton wrote about it thirty years ago in "The State We're In" and not much has changed since. The basic issue is that our economy is run on the principle that shareholder value is sacrosanct. Companies have a duty to maximise the returns to shareholders. They don't have a duty to consider the strategic national interest, or the conditions of their workers, or the effect that their working practices have on people's lives. So, understandably, companies typically make decisions that maximise their share prices and dividends.

This explains why we are having such severe problems with the gas price spike. Nowhere else in Europe is having this problem to the same level, because they all have bigger stores of gas, precisely to help them ride out short term price spikes.

We used to have large stores. But 10 years ago, Centrica cut its storage capability by 70%, on the grounds that it was costing them too much and hitting profits. Short term company interest over long term national strategic interest.

There are two ways you can curb the power of companies to make these decisions only in their own interests. The first is strong unions. Ones that can hold companies to task over pay and working conditions. So that people have better work-life balance and receive a fairer slice of the pie. But unions have been emasculated for 40 years. So that control on companies has gone. The second is Government regulation to force companies to act in the national interest. But we've lived in an age where  Governments of both colours have wanted to rein back their involvement and let the market get on with it. And this is where we end up.

If anyone is interested in this, I can't recommend Hutton's book highly enough. It's still as relevant now as when he wrote it.

My God you are such a hypocrite .

So now you want strong trade unions to keep the fuel in your car .

Funny that , you did nowt but slate the unions and went back to the winter of 1979 to make your point in a debate we had months ago .

[SydneyRover]

''Supply chain crisis: Tories poised to U-turn on foreign worker visas
Boris Johnson believed to have overruled ministers unwilling to compromise on post-Brexit immigration as forecourt queues mount''

Looks like Reverse Brexit on the way, fancy that aye?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/24/supply-chain-crisis-tories-poised-turn-foreign-worker-visas

[tyke1962]

''Supply chain crisis: Tories poised to U-turn on foreign worker visas
Boris Johnson believed to have overruled ministers unwilling to compromise on post-Brexit immigration as forecourt queues mount''

Looks like Reverse Brexit on the way, fancy that aye?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/24/supply-chain-crisis-tories-poised-turn-foreign-worker-visas

Reverse brexit , wow thats an incredible statement even by your standards Sydney .

The jobs crisis in certain sectors  and free movement are two completely different things .

You might also want to acknowledge that the HGV situation is also a European problem too , in short nobody in the numbers that the industry requires no longer want to do the job and who can blame them .

As a solid Labour man that you claim to be surely you don't wish to see migrant labour exploited do you to fill the gaps ?

Personally I think the migrants are in a good position to be attracted to the job crisis rhetoric .

Yeh we'll come but not for the minimum wage .

They are in an extremely good position and I sincerely hope they know that if visas are to be given to EU migrants .

[SydneyRover]

''Supply chain crisis: Tories poised to U-turn on foreign worker visas
Boris Johnson believed to have overruled ministers unwilling to compromise on post-Brexit immigration as forecourt queues mount''

Looks like Reverse Brexit on the way, fancy that aye?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/24/supply-chain-crisis-tories-poised-turn-foreign-worker-visas

Reverse brexit , wow thats an incredible statement even by your standards Sydney .

The jobs crisis in certain sectors  and free movement are two completely different things .

You might also want to acknowledge that the HGV situation is also a European problem too , in short nobody in the numbers that the industry requires no longer want to do the job and who can blame them .

As a solid Labour man that you claim to be surely you don't wish to see migrant labour exploited do you to fill the gaps ?

Personally I think the migrants are in a good position to be attracted to the job crisis rhetoric .

Yeh we'll come but not for the minimum wage .

They are in an extremely good position and I sincerely hope they know that if visas are to be given to EU migrants .

typical tory supporter all mouth and trousers, read the link at the top of the thread I posted then get back to me

[tyke1962]

''Supply chain crisis: Tories poised to U-turn on foreign worker visas
Boris Johnson believed to have overruled ministers unwilling to compromise on post-Brexit immigration as forecourt queues mount''

Looks like Reverse Brexit on the way, fancy that aye?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/24/supply-chain-crisis-tories-poised-turn-foreign-worker-visas

Reverse brexit , wow thats an incredible statement even by your standards Sydney .

The jobs crisis in certain sectors  and free movement are two completely different things .

You might also want to acknowledge that the HGV situation is also a European problem too , in short nobody in the numbers that the industry requires no longer want to do the job and who can blame them .

As a solid Labour man that you claim to be surely you don't wish to see migrant labour exploited do you to fill the gaps ?

Personally I think the migrants are in a good position to be attracted to the job crisis rhetoric .

Yeh we'll come but not for the minimum wage .

They are in an extremely good position and I sincerely hope they know that if visas are to be given to EU migrants .

typical tory supporter all mouth and trousers, read the link at the top of the thread I posted then get back to me

All mouth and trousers wow .

From someone who has seen the impact of free movement as opposed to sunning himself on Bondi Beach .

Your a real Labour man aren't you ?

[SydneyRover]

I see you don't like the insults tyke?

To tell the truth I'm sick of hearing your excuses why you supported a bedrock right wing tory proposal which would harm the economy and by default workers rights.

I'm sick of hearing your excuses and explanations which ultimately result in tory government.

You haven't despite all your protestations told me how your plan for world domination by the left wing of the labour party is going to come about, so instead of the insults and excuses get a bit real about the situation that effects millions of ordinary britons queuing for food and get your union buddies to sort out zero hours contracts then come back and discuss the path to government.

2 million poor people in britain while you luxuriate in a fanciful 'ooh I dorn't like that'

''14 million people
Approximately 14 million people are in poverty in the UK – more than one in five of the population, including 4 million children and 2 million pensioners, up by 400,000 and 300,000 respectively over the past five years.6 Feb 2020''

[tyke1962]

I see you don't like the insults tyke?

To tell the truth I'm sick of hearing your excuses why you supported a bedrock right wing tory proposal which would harm the economy and by default workers rights.

I'm sick of hearing your excuses and explanations which ultimately result in tory government.

You haven't despite all your protestations told me how your plan for world domination by the left wing of the labour party is going to come about, so instead of the insults and excuses get a bit real about the situation that effects millions of ordinary britons queuing for food and get your union buddies to sort out zero hours contracts then come back and discuss the path to government.

2 million poor people in britain while you luxuriate in a fanciful 'ooh I dorn't like that'

''14 million people
Approximately 14 million people are in poverty in the UK – more than one in five of the population, including 4 million children and 2 million pensioners, up by 400,000 and 300,000 respectively over the past five years.6 Feb 2020''

If you are going to throw accusations of supporting Tories in my direction Sydney you are going to provoke a robust reaction .

The left that I come from were against the EU
when Johnson and Mogg were still wearing silly hats and carrying hockey sticks at expensive schools .

Your point about Trade Unions is an interesting one , New Labour changed nothing from the anti union legislation brought in by Thatcher , Blair even boasted about having the strongest anti union laws when pitching to European businesses .

The last Labour PM brought private companies in to job centres to kick people back to work .

They were paid on a targets reached basis so you can figure out the culture surrounding how they went about that with many people signed fit to work when many weren't .

Their answer to fighting crime in working class areas where drug dealing and anti social behaviour was rife due to New Labour not addressing the lack of decent jobs post Thatcher was to hire Plastic Bobby's .

No wonder the heartlands turned against them .

Your stripe of the Labour Party are the closet thing you'll get to the Tories .

[SydneyRover]

I'm not sure why you're telling me any of this tyks as I'm only using stuff you have told me, whereas you are making stuff up.

[tyke1962]

I'm not sure why you're telling me any of this tyks as I'm only using stuff you have told me, whereas you are making stuff up.

There's little point debating with someone who holds such a tribal position Sydney from the centre of the Labour Party .

Clearly Keith doesn't want to either given the purge of the left .

You own it now lock , stock and barrel .

[SydneyRover]

I'm not sure why you're telling me any of this tyks as I'm only using stuff you have told me, whereas you are making stuff up.

There's little point debating with someone who holds such a tribal position Sydney from the centre of the Labour Party .

Clearly Keith doesn't want to either given the purge of the left .

You own it now lock , stock and barrel .

You don't have a clue do you tyke, I've told you before about the insults the same as anyone on the forum, you throw em I give em back, like for like.

If you want a proper conversation keep your insults to yourself.

[Filo]

I'm not sure why you're telling me any of this tyks as I'm only using stuff you have told me, whereas you are making stuff up.

There's little point debating with someone who holds such a tribal position Sydney from the centre of the Labour Party .

Clearly Keith doesn't want to either given the purge of the left .

You own it now lock , stock and barrel .

It seems tribal positions are working both ways, heres a novel idea, how about meeting in the middle?

[tyke1962]

I'm not sure why you're telling me any of this tyks as I'm only using stuff you have told me, whereas you are making stuff up.

There's little point debating with someone who holds such a tribal position Sydney from the centre of the Labour Party .

Clearly Keith doesn't want to either given the purge of the left .

You own it now lock , stock and barrel .

It seems tribal positions are working both ways, heres a novel idea, how about meeting in the middle?

Done that most of my life Filo but not with the current leader , once bitten and all that .

Get a new leader in who isn't shyte scared of wanting real change in this country and I'll get on board .

Rayner could very well tempt me back .

[Not Now Kato]

I'm not sure why you're telling me any of this tyks as I'm only using stuff you have told me, whereas you are making stuff up.

There's little point debating with someone who holds such a tribal position Sydney from the centre of the Labour Party .

Clearly Keith doesn't want to either given the purge of the left .

You own it now lock , stock and barrel .

It seems tribal positions are working both ways, heres a novel idea, how about meeting in the middle?

Done that most of my life Filo but not with the current leader , once bitten and all that .

Get a new leader in who isn't shyte scared of wanting real change in this country and I'll get on board .

Rayner could very well tempt me back .

And in the meantime you'd rather have the worst of the two evils?  Ah, the high price of principles!

[tyke1962]

I'm not sure why you're telling me any of this tyks as I'm only using stuff you have told me, whereas you are making stuff up.

There's little point debating with someone who holds such a tribal position Sydney from the centre of the Labour Party .

Clearly Keith doesn't want to either given the purge of the left .

You own it now lock , stock and barrel .

It seems tribal positions are working both ways, heres a novel idea, how about meeting in the middle?

Done that most of my life Filo but not with the current leader , once bitten and all that .

Get a new leader in who isn't shyte scared of wanting real change in this country and I'll get on board .

Rayner could very well tempt me back .

And in the meantime you'd rather have the worst of the two evils?  Ah, the high price of principles!

Depends what your view of two evils is .

As far as principles are concerned it's simply a case of not supporting something I fundamentally disagree with .

If principles are to be judged by not giving Starmer a blank cheque then so be it .

If I support something that means I agree with it and I don't agree with the direction Starmer is taking the party .

[Not Now Kato]

I'm not sure why you're telling me any of this tyks as I'm only using stuff you have told me, whereas you are making stuff up.

There's little point debating with someone who holds such a tribal position Sydney from the centre of the Labour Party .

Clearly Keith doesn't want to either given the purge of the left .

You own it now lock , stock and barrel .

It seems tribal positions are working both ways, heres a novel idea, how about meeting in the middle?

Done that most of my life Filo but not with the current leader , once bitten and all that .

Get a new leader in who isn't shyte scared of wanting real change in this country and I'll get on board .

Rayner could very well tempt me back .

And in the meantime you'd rather have the worst of the two evils?  Ah, the high price of principles!

Depends what your view of two evils is .

As far as principles are concerned it's simply a case of not supporting something I fundamentally disagree with .

If principles are to be judged by not giving Starmer a blank cheque then so be it .

If I support something that means I agree with it and I don't agree with the direction Starmer is taking the party .

'Evil' in this case is what is worst for the country as a whole. Can you seriously say that the county, as a whole, is better off under a Johnson led government than a Starmer led one?  If so then yes, your principles can be judged by you giving Johnson a blank check to lie, cheat and look after his 'mates' at the expense of what would be less worse for the country.  If not then..............
 
You don't like the way the Labour Party is going.  Tell you something, neither do I right now.  But you won't fix that by putting a Tory Government with 'populist policies', (which they don't actually put in place), in power who then openly lie and blame others to cover their mistakes  - particularly given the backing they get from an equally corrupt MSM.  No, you do that from within.  You do that through persuasive argument and discussion.
 
And you do it by accepting that, in the short term, things will not be as good as they should be; but they will be a site better than the alternative.
 
The above I know from personal practical experience.