HS2

[drfchound]

I see that the government are set to scrap the Eastern section of HS2 and instead improve existing rail links.

[SydneyRover]

I see that the government are set to scrap the Eastern section of HS2 and instead improve existing rail links.

What do you think about this, would you like the HS2 to come to Leeds or prefer not, why do you think they have scrapped the idea or were they never intending it to run up north? Quite an interesting topic you have posted hound.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So much for levelling up.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-to-water-down-promise-on-northern-powerhouse-rail-line-in-key-plan-this-week-1300248?ito=twitter_share_article-top

When Sunak replaces Johnson, remember he's the Chancellor who has given the thumbs up to £40bn for Crossrail 2 and the finger to transport in the North.

The East Midlands Line electrification was supposed to have started a decade ago and still Sheffield remains the biggest city in Western Europe with diesel-only trains.

Look under the bullshit rhetoric and they don't really give two f**ks about the North.

[Donnywolf]

So much for levelling up.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-to-water-down-promise-on-northern-powerhouse-rail-line-in-key-plan-this-week-1300248?ito=twitter_share_article-top

The East Midlands Line electrification was supposed to have started a decade ago and still Sheffield remains the biggest city in Western Europe with diesel-only trains.

... and Leeds is still the biggest city in Western Europe with no mass transit system - such as Tram network

I know its easy with hindsight but what possessed Cities to get rid of Trams etc - modernisation ?

Even Donny had "Trackless" electric Buses ffs criss crossing the Town - will set a Thread going soon

[Sprotyrover]

Doncaster had a Tram system before Trackless, both went down The Pan due to Progress'

[SydneyRover]

Doncaster had a Tram system before Trackless, both sent download The Pan due to Progress'

See my comment and link on Wolfies new trackless topic sprot

[River Don]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/14/government-to-finally-drop-plan-for-hs2-link-to-leeds-reports

If true this seems really bizarre. Not fully cancelling the High speed Leeds link, only not connecting Sheffield to East Midlands Parkway.

I assume this means the connection to London remains, only with a slow section in the East Midlands. Half arsed or what?

[Rios]

I never really understood the eastern leg of HS2.  The East Coast mainline is not at full capacity, hence why there are paths for the open access operators to run trains to London from Bradford, Hull and Sunderland. If I was a resident of Leeds I'd be happy with getting better local transport and it keeps stations like Donny, Grantham, etc on the main route rather than becoming rail backwaters like Lincoln.

It pains me to say it, but I'm gonna have to agree with the tories... with Covid, Brexit and the way the economy is, something has to give.  If they hadn't already started the main part of HS2 to Birmingham I'd guess that they would have cancelled the whole thing and looked to upgrade the speed limit on the West Coast mainline instead.

The bit that doesn't make sense is the peicemeal bits still being done and London-Sheffield still not being electrified, especially when they've already done a good portion of the southern end already for commuter trains into London.
I'm guessing the HS3 (Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds) plans will now die a death too.

[selby]

  Excuse me if I am wrong, but Leeds Sheffield and Doncaster were running their own municipal transport systems when Trackies and trams were done away with and replaced by cheaper Diesel transport, and all under labour controlled councils at the time, and a good chance of the labour party government under Wilson also being in power.
  In fairness I think it was seen as progress at the time, and the chance to expand the network to the outlying new estates on the outer edges of the cities without the infrastructure being built to support the tram and trackless systems.
  Motoring was seen as the future, and personal transport was coming into fashion with the motor car and the working classes ability to afford it.
  Some would revert to the working class being priced out of the ability of personal transport, I think they are heading for trouble.

[River Don]

I never really understood the eastern leg of HS2.  The East Coast mainline is not at full capacity, hence why there are paths for the open access operators to run trains to London from Bradford, Hull and Sunderland. If I was a resident of Leeds I'd be happy with getting better local transport and it keeps stations like Donny, Grantham, etc on the main route rather than becoming rail backwaters like Lincoln.

It pains me to say it, but I'm gonna have to agree with the tories... with Covid, Brexit and the way the economy is, something has to give.  If they hadn't already started the main part of HS2 to Birmingham I'd guess that they would have cancelled the whole thing and looked to upgrade the speed limit on the West Coast mainline instead.

The bit that doesn't make sense is the peicemeal bits still being done and London-Sheffield still not being electrified, especially when they've already done a good portion of the southern end already for commuter trains into London.
I'm guessing the HS3 (Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds) plans will now die a death too.

I did read East Coast Mainline could be made faster and more reliable with infrastructure work to get rid of some bottlenecks, for instance an additional bridge at Welwyn Garden City to shift commuter trains off the mainline and some additional tunneling.

[albie]

I agree with Rios on this, but we need to see that the changes add up to a better package overall.

Removing bottlenecks on the existing networks makes much more economic sense than a vanity project like HS2.

I am not opposed to high speed rail, but the upgrading of the Victorian network is a higher priority. High Speed on the footprint of a current line might be feasible, with the service temporarily suspended during the works, section by section.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I never really understood the eastern leg of HS2.  The East Coast mainline is not at full capacity, hence why there are paths for the open access operators to run trains to London from Bradford, Hull and Sunderland. If I was a resident of Leeds I'd be happy with getting better local transport and it keeps stations like Donny, Grantham, etc on the main route rather than becoming rail backwaters like Lincoln.

It pains me to say it, but I'm gonna have to agree with the tories... with Covid, Brexit and the way the economy is, something has to give.  If they hadn't already started the main part of HS2 to Birmingham I'd guess that they would have cancelled the whole thing and looked to upgrade the speed limit on the West Coast mainline instead.

The bit that doesn't make sense is the peicemeal bits still being done and London-Sheffield still not being electrified, especially when they've already done a good portion of the southern end already for commuter trains into London.
I'm guessing the HS3 (Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds) plans will now die a death too.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding that the Tories play on. Something DOESN'T have t give when you are talking about long term capital investment. It pays for itself in a a number of ways, including the multiplier effect in the short term (people and companies getting paid to do the work spend that money so other people earn so they spend and they all pay taxes on the earnings and the spending) and the long term efficiencies it brings over the next 150 years. Not to mention the fact that Man U-f**king-nited and the like would have less of an excuse to take 10 minute aircraft flights to cities just over the horizon...

[albie]

BST,

HS2 did not meet the criteria set in the Treasury Green Book, so was approved against the published cost benefit appraisal.

There is very good evidence that schemes like this suck economic activity from the weaker to the stronger economy, and HS2 would primarily benefit London and the SE.

It meets all the criteria of a Johnson scheme, including transferring public funds to private contractors, gaining cheap headlines and persuading people he can "get things done", despite his record showing the opposite. Soundbites for votes, with apologies for afters!

The Leeds extension was always the most vulnerable, and as costs spiral out of control the likelihood of a cull increased.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/high-speed-2-costs
The increase in potential costs has risen year on year since approval.

[scawsby steve]

So much for levelling up.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-to-water-down-promise-on-northern-powerhouse-rail-line-in-key-plan-this-week-1300248?ito=twitter_share_article-top

When Sunak replaces Johnson, remember he's the Chancellor who has given the thumbs up to £40bn for Crossrail 2 and the finger to transport in the North.

The East Midlands Line electrification was supposed to have started a decade ago and still Sheffield remains the biggest city in Western Europe with diesel-only trains.

Look under the bullshit rhetoric and they don't really give two f**ks about the North.

The daft thing about it is the fact that Sheffield did have electrification, from the old Victoria Station to Manchester, a really high speed journey, and then the whole f*cking thing was taken down, along with the closure of Victoria Station.

Madness.

[Donnywolf]

I recall going to Woodhead by Steam train and then changing over to Electra loco to head to Mcr

Wonder if they hadn't built the Sheffield to Woodhead bit at that time

Another sad error getting rid of electric overhead lines , trams and tracklesses not to mention Beeching

[Axholme Lion]

I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.

[drfchound]

I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.

Some people have serious double standards AL.
HS2 is a serious waste of money and should never have been sanctioned in the first place in my opinion.
Your point about the countryside destruction is also overlooked by some who have championed HS2 as well.

[Sprotyrover]

Hs2 was never going to benefit Doncaster, now they can sort out the pinch points at Hitching, Peterborough and Rossington and Welwyn and knock 20 mins off the journey time to London. They can also re visit the Finningly Airport Arm.

[normal rules]

Does hs2 operate on water?
It will need to by the end of the century.

[SydneyRover]

I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.

The thing is, rail transport is more efficient than road, look at all the effing roads that now criss-cross the countryside. More roads to solve congestion end up competing with public transport and creating more traffic, whereas improving rail transport leaves existing roads for the final leg of the journey, tradies and trucks.

''Do more roads really mean less congestion for commuters?''

https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508

[KeithMyath]

The Leeds/Manchester high speed rail which has also been cancelled, surely is the biggest kicker here. I used to work in Leeds for a company based in Manchester, the train commute was an absolute joke. I always thought a high speed rail between Hull and Liverpool connecting. Doncaster Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester etc would have a huge benefit to the north, as it stands it’s one of the slowest routes in Europe.

[Axholme Lion]

I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.

The thing is, rail transport is more efficient than road, look at all the effing roads that now criss-cross the countryside. More roads to solve congestion end up competing with public transport and creating more traffic, whereas improving rail transport leaves existing roads for the final leg of the journey, tradies and trucks.

''Do more roads really mean less congestion for commuters?''

https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508

There is no public transport. If i was to catch the bus to work and back, i would have around one hour at work by the time i had walked from and back to the bus station.
Public transport is something they have in London and most politicians on both sides don't seem to know it is virtually non existant outside of the big cities.

[SydneyRover]

I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.

The thing is, rail transport is more efficient than road, look at all the effing roads that now criss-cross the countryside. More roads to solve congestion end up competing with public transport and creating more traffic, whereas improving rail transport leaves existing roads for the final leg of the journey, tradies and trucks.

''Do more roads really mean less congestion for commuters?''

https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508

There is no public transport. If i was to catch the bus to work and back, i would have around one hour at work by the time i had walked from and back to the bus station.
Public transport is something they have in London and most politicians on both sides don't seem to know it is virtually non existant outside of the big cities.

Exactly, thank you AL you made the point better than I did, building roads doesn't solve congestion, public transport does.

[Axholme Lion]

I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.

The thing is, rail transport is more efficient than road, look at all the effing roads that now criss-cross the countryside. More roads to solve congestion end up competing with public transport and creating more traffic, whereas improving rail transport leaves existing roads for the final leg of the journey, tradies and trucks.

''Do more roads really mean less congestion for commuters?''

https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508

There is no public transport. If i was to catch the bus to work and back, i would have around one hour at work by the time i had walked from and back to the bus station.
Public transport is something they have in London and most politicians on both sides don't seem to know it is virtually non existant outside of the big cities.

Exactly, thank you AL you made the point better than I did, building roads doesn't solve congestion, public transport does.

 PT wouldn't work for me as i'm travelling from a backwater in North Lincs, for people travelling shorter distances such as under ten miles better PT would free up the roads for people with no realistic alternative. Your battle is to get them out of their car. I was stood in the CO-OP in Epworth last Saturday and some old bloke drove up to the shop, got out of his car and came in to buy a bag of sweets! Now i don't know if he'd been anywhere else but it's pointless journeys like that which are a big problem.

[River Don]

The Leeds/Manchester high speed rail which has also been cancelled, surely is the biggest kicker here. I used to work in Leeds for a company based in Manchester, the train commute was an absolute joke. I always thought a high speed rail between Hull and Liverpool connecting. Doncaster Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester etc would have a huge benefit to the north, as it stands it’s one of the slowest routes in Europe.

I agree. I'm sure a fast connection between Manchester and Leeds would have a transformational effect. Then on to Liverpool, Sheffield, Hull.
The concept of tying the large northern cities closer together seemed a good one to me.

[roversdude]

The route from Hull to Liverpool is a joke unfortunately. Even with the current TRU project it will still be painfully slow

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The case for bringing HS2 to Leeds never made a huge amount of sense to me, just make the ecml better.  I find the 1hr 30-40 to London from Doncaster fine.  They talked about the economic benefits but it hasn't hugely helped Doncaster with the exception largely of those who live here and work in London.

It's ridiculous though that we can largely get to London quicker than Manchester or Liverpool. Cross penine travel is horrendous and surely improving that is the biggest potential benefit.

There's some great points on this thread, public transport doesn't work well outside London, Birmingham, the north east or Manchester really and this wouldn't have solved that much bigger issue.

I work 9 miles from my house now, closest I ever have to home.  But I can't do it on public transport as it is hugely slower and expensive when I can pretty much drive it for free charging my car at work.  Quite often those who do need public transport in the office get lifts from others given the cost and travel time.

We had dozens of rail lines for the pits, God knows why they didn't retain and use them for economic benefit.

[River Don]

HS2 Eastern spur would have tied Leeds and Sheffield much closer together, which would have brought benefits though there have always been problems getting the line through Sheffield.

I always thought the Parkway station between Nottingham and Derby was only really about providing long distance commuters with a more convenient way from the East Midlands to London. It looks like that will still go ahead.

The real aim of High a Speed rail was meant to offer a low carbon alternative to internal flights, odd then that it wasn't planned to go right up to Newcastle and Edinburgh from the off.

From the point of view of offering alternatives to aviation, I always thought it was a staggering design flaw that the line terminates in London and doesn't connect directly to HS1 out to the continent too.

[GazLaz]

I think the issue is that people don’t really understand what the high speed rail network is for. The real benefit is not one of time but the fact that the high speed trains (and freight) can be taken off the current infrastructure allowing local services to run on the current network with less delay and at increased capacity. This just can’t happen without HS2. It’s a mistake knocking it on the head.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think the issue is that people don’t really understand what the high speed rail network is for. The real benefit is not one of time but the fact that the high speed trains (and freight) can be taken off the current infrastructure allowing local services to run on the current network with less delay and at increased capacity. This just can’t happen without HS2. It’s a mistake knocking it on the head.

It'll be interesting to see what else they go with as talk was they'd still build Sheffield to Leeds in some form.

There are other more pressing points I'd say? Connect Barnsley better to Leeds, Sheffield, Doncaster and you've a big boost. Same with other parts of West yorkshire. Do we need better connections south or better around our local areas?