HS2

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's a false dichotomy.

We need both. We're going to get neither. Or at least neither on the scale that we need.

[GazLaz]

I think the issue is that people don’t really understand what the high speed rail network is for. The real benefit is not one of time but the fact that the high speed trains (and freight) can be taken off the current infrastructure allowing local services to run on the current network with less delay and at increased capacity. This just can’t happen without HS2. It’s a mistake knocking it on the head.

It'll be interesting to see what else they go with as talk was they'd still build Sheffield to Leeds in some form.

There are other more pressing points I'd say? Connect Barnsley better to Leeds, Sheffield, Doncaster and you've a big boost. Same with other parts of West yorkshire. Do we need better connections south or better around our local areas?

They are bound to upgrade parts of the network, but it’s still the same network and a lot of that work is already ongoing. It’s the high speed trains that are not stopping at local stations getting priority over the local trains that causes the issues for local travellers. Implementing this section of HS2 would have a net benefit for travel in the region, I’m sure of it. 

[ravenrover]

Anyone see the car crash interview this morning with MP for Penistone? Trying to defend the scrapping by saying she has managed to get improvements on her local lines to Sheffield which makes it a lot quicker for her constituents to get to Sheffield and that is what should be hapoening lots of little local improvements. Not many people travel to London now she says. Wonder when the last time she was on a teain outside of 1st class! She should try getting North from Nottingham it's either a drive to Newark to catch LNER or change at Chesterfield or Sheffield there in no direct Nothern link and that supposedly was what HS2 was about, yet another broken promise from the Conservative Manifesto.

[SydneyRover]

I remember saying in a much earlier thread on the same subject something like the only way to guarantee getting the HS2 to Leeds would be to start building from the north down.

[River Don]

I think the issue is that people don’t really understand what the high speed rail network is for. The real benefit is not one of time but the fact that the high speed trains (and freight) can be taken off the current infrastructure allowing local services to run on the current network with less delay and at increased capacity. This just can’t happen without HS2. It’s a mistake knocking it on the head.

Capacity was a priority for the UK, which makes sense because the UK has the worlds oldest network in need of upgrading.

But when the Japanese and French started developing high speed rail it was as an alternative to flying.

Both objectives were valid in the UK.

I think the focus with HS2 has become the fast link between Birmingham and London and the opportunity to expand the computer belt of London out into the Midlands. Look at what's happening now, the project terminates in London because London is the objective. The Eastern Spur terminates at a car park in the East Midlands in the middle of nowhere because it's about feeding London with more commuters.

And now they've given regional airports a tax break, it looks very much like the solution to overcoming distance in the country is aviation. So much for climate change.

And they've cancelled the so called Northern Powrhouse rail link. So much for levelling up.

The focus is all on the capital.

[Filo]

There was always a reason why they started to build HS2 in London, and that was s that other sections in the North could be cancelled

[drfchound]

Yep, agreed and it was under the Labour government in 2009 that the scheme was first proposed.
HS2 has always been about getting people to London rather than the other way round.
It would have also increased house prices further North as commuters moved home further from their SE place of work.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The more you read it the more you think the proposals are nothing like ambitious enough. Long timescales, improvements not big enough and not all targeted correctly.  There's a very valid point from the PM that largely people aren't bothered about high speed to London but better availability to get to work etc.

I just think of us in Doncaster. They could really push things forward in the town with better rail to certain villages (askern etc), link to the airport and all the development there and connections improved to the other local cities (Sheffield, hull etc) and then bringing the great British rail base here.  But we'll get none of that. Does ten minutes off the journey to London matter? Not really.

[Colemans Left Hook]

Perhaps "up here in the North" we should rename HS2 ....

H2S

cos it stinks .....  could say there are no "good eggs" in the cabinet just "bad eggs"  leaving a bad smell

[River Don]

Yep, agreed and it was under the Labour government in 2009 that the scheme was first proposed.
HS2 has always been about getting people to London rather than the other way round.
It would have also increased house prices further North as commuters moved home further from their SE place of work.

It still will increase house prices in the Midlands, that component of the project remains intact. £96bil to extend the London commuter belt basically.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Northern Workhouse.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Excellent interview with a rail boss on R4 news this lunchtime

He said the basic problem we have in UK is running local stoppers and fast IC trains on same lines. That limits capacity because you need a big gap between a stopper and a fast train.

That was the point of HS2. It wasn't about journey times, it was about putting fast trains on a dedicated line. That would allow you to have far more capacity on the stopper line.

He said everyone in the industry knows this, and knows that abolishing the Eastern HS2 now means we are stuck with limited capacity for decades. The proposed line improvements will help a bit but only a tiny bit. Most of it is political window dressing.

[selby]

Can I just say how proud and amazed I am at fellow supporters of the Rovers who have for the last eighteen months have shown their expertise in Covid  19 and how many of the same experts have at the drop of a hat in no time at all have become expert Railway engineers.

[wilts rover]

What you vote for - is what you get:

[albie]

Very good comment piece from Rail journalist Christian Wolmar here;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/18/revised-hs2-plan-viable-boris-johnson-rail

Barmy Bozo is a dab hand at announcing the grand scheme, then parking it sometime later.
Thames airport, London Garden Bridge, Bridge/Tunnel to Northern Ireland etc, etc!

HS2 is no loss, but east west city connection across the north is a big loss.
Very different economic profile to these schemes, so bundling them all together makes little sense.

It would be good if the government could make an announcement without recycling previous commitments, including the money to finance them.

How many times can you make the same pot of money do a publicity job for the PM?

[River Don]

Can I just say how proud and amazed I am at fellow supporters of the Rovers who have for the last eighteen months have shown their expertise in Covid  19 and how many of the same experts have at the drop of a hat in no time at all have become expert Railway engineers.

I'm not sure you're really grasping the point of an open discussion forum, Selby.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Note most of this won't have started by the next election so will be interesting to see if labour propose implementing more or not.

[selby]

  I have to appologise I have just read the comments on here from 2015/16 on the subject and it looks as if most were experts on HS2 long before Covid, and could predict the future too.

[River Don]

Excellent interview with a rail boss on R4 news this lunchtime

He said the basic problem we have in UK is running local stoppers and fast IC trains on same lines. That limits capacity because you need a big gap between a stopper and a fast train.

That was the point of HS2. It wasn't about journey times, it was about putting fast trains on a dedicated line. That would allow you to have far more capacity on the stopper line.

He said everyone in the industry knows this, and knows that abolishing the Eastern HS2 now means we are stuck with limited capacity for decades. The proposed line improvements will help a bit but only a tiny bit. Most of it is political window dressing.

This is the issue with the East Coast mainline, the bottlenecks slow the IC trains down around Hitchen and Welwyn where local stoppers use the mainline.

One or two bridges and tunnels and Leeds would have a comparable journey time to London on that fast line as opposed to HS2. Upgrades like that aren't a big sexy project though.

The real kick in the teeth here is the cancelling of the high speed East/West link. That would have had a transformational effect.

[drfchound]

Yep, agreed and it was under the Labour government in 2009 that the scheme was first proposed.
HS2 has always been about getting people to London rather than the other way round.
It would have also increased house prices further North as commuters moved home further from their SE place of work.

It still will increase house prices in the Midlands, that component of the project remains intact. £96bil to extend the London commuter belt basically.

That is what I said RD.
The midlands is further North than London.

[River Don]

Yep, agreed and it was under the Labour government in 2009 that the scheme was first proposed.
HS2 has always been about getting people to London rather than the other way round.
It would have also increased house prices further North as commuters moved home further from their SE place of work.

It still will increase house prices in the Midlands, that component of the project remains intact. £96bil to extend the London commuter belt basically.

That is what I said RD.
The midlands is further North than London.

Fair enough, I took 'would have' to mean it won't now. What has largely happened with this announcement, is that the London centric objective always within the original plan is now laid bare as being of foremost importance.

[wilts rover]

Sunak has been quiet today. Wonder if he remembers saying this

https://twitter.com/bphillipsonMP/status/1461328690940362756

[River Don]

Can we have our home back now, please?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/18/can-we-have-our-home-back-hs2-u-turn-leaves-uprooted-family-reeling

Weavers unfinished housing estate in Mexborough is now not being knocked down.

Farcical.

Heh, I walked the dogs with my Dad near High Melton, we stopped and tried to work out the proposed route of the new High speed line through Mexborough.

Dad said "it'll never happen" he's not here to see it but he's been proved right today.

[SydneyRover]

Can I just say how proud and amazed I am at fellow supporters of the Rovers who have for the last eighteen months have shown their expertise in Covid  19 and how many of the same experts have at the drop of a hat in no time at all have become expert Railway engineers.

I guess as the country downsizes and the population diminishes over time there will be less need for a fast modern rail system like they have in many countries of the world.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.

Some people have serious double standards AL.
HS2 is a serious waste of money and should never have been sanctioned in the first place in my opinion.
Your point about the countryside destruction is also overlooked by some who have championed HS2 as well.

I was certainly in the camp that thought the humongous cost of HS2 could be better spent on new and improved
regional infrastructure.

I benefits didn't stack up for me. For example, why would you want to travel to Meadowhall to catch a HS2 train to London instead of catching the service from Donny with an overall shorter journey time.

If it's not about speed, is it about capacity? I'm sure it's within the realms of intelligent engineers to increase capacity on the current networks for a fraction of the cost of HS2.

I couldn't help thinking, by the time HS2 is finished, new technology may have overtaken with people and goods being able to move via automated drone!!

Talking of local improvements, can anyone confirm whether the funding has been secured to reroute the East Coast mainline via Donny Airport? This seems to be one of the more sensible approaches to improving existing infrastructure and connectivity.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Can I just say how proud and amazed I am at fellow supporters of the Rovers who have for the last eighteen months have shown their expertise in Covid  19 and how many of the same experts have at the drop of a hat in no time at all have become expert Railway engineers.

I guess as the country downsizes and the population diminishes over time there will be less need for a fast modern rail system like they have in many countries of the world.

After all, we can always go back to canals.

[Glyn_Wigley]

At least we now all know what 'Levelling Up' really means.

'Levelling Up to Birmingham'.

[River Don]

I wonder if the new plans for HS2 to East Midlands Parkway bother to take account of East Midlands airport?

I mean you can see the aircraft take off from the platform at a East Midlands but you need to hang around for a crumby bus service to get to the airport.

Shift the line a couple of miles and they could have the railway line terminate at the airport.

[Filo]

I wonder if the new plans for HS2 to East Midlands Parkway bother to take account of East Midlands airport?

I mean you can see the aircraft take off from the platform at a East Midlands but you need to hang around for a crumby bus service to get to the airport.

Shift the line a couple of miles and they could have the railway line terminate at the airport.

Depends what date maps where used by the planners to determine the route, apparently outdated maps were used regarding the shimmer estate in Mexborough, resulting in nearly new properties being compulsory purchased

[River Don]

That was unbelievable Filo,

Andrew Weaver (brother of Simon Weaver Harrogate manager) suddenly discovered his new housing estate in Mexborough was being compulsory purchased because they did not know it existed!