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Quote from: River Don on February 28, 2022, 01:38:55 pmI don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?And of course a complete withdrawal.
I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
Quote from: SydneyRover on February 28, 2022, 01:43:06 pmQuote from: River Don on February 28, 2022, 01:38:55 pmI don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?And of course a complete withdrawal.He won't accept Ukraine joining NATO. I think that's the absolute redline for Putin. Ukraine isn't a member of NATO. A commitment to remain out of it isn't really a concession, it's keeping things as they are. Once the war is stopped the Ukraine can stock up with weapons as a deterant.
Quote from: River Don on February 28, 2022, 01:38:55 pmI don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?And of course a complete withdrawal.
I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
Perhaps we should allow Russia into NATO. Then No one is at risk. Far fetched? maybe.Possible? Anything is possible
I read an interesting article recently that suggested that NATO should have invited both Russia and Ukraine to join NATO - with the proviso that Ukraine could only accept if Russia did. After all, we hear that Putin's main concern is Ukrainian NATO membership, leading to NATO troops being stationed in the Ukraine and providing a closer launching pad for a NATO war against Russia. If Russia were a NATO member, NATO's Article 5 would compel, for example, the UK to defend Russia against any attack, including that of a fellow NATO member, including the U.S. Therefore Russia's NATO membership would provide the formal security guarantee that it wants and seeks.Bringing Russia in from the cold might be the barking mad, but it could have been the solution. And what if Russia declines I hear you say.... well that would show that Putin's real focus is on conquering countries with any actual or alleged historical connection to Russia, and might show that NATO allies need to be prepared for further wars in the Baltics..... or any other NATO countries in Putin's eye sights..
I think for Putin it was a case of now or never.But he's discovering the conquering Ukraine is nowhere near as easy as he thought it would be. And the prospect of holding it, that's impossible, he's united the society against him.It would take a vast Russian force to control it now. They can't afford to do it.I'm hoping he is sane enough to recognise that now and might take the opportunity now to backdown.
Quote from: River Don on February 28, 2022, 02:09:22 pmI think for Putin it was a case of now or never.But he's discovering the conquering Ukraine is nowhere near as easy as he thought it would be. And the prospect of holding it, that's impossible, he's united the society against him.It would take a vast Russian force to control it now. They can't afford to do it.I'm hoping he is sane enough to recognise that now and might take the opportunity now to backdown.Not sure about the last bit but hope you're right, from what I've read and watched the locals have been getting a bit uppity about why they can only earn round 300 euros a month at best and putin needed a shed load of nationalism to boost his stocks
So much for targetting military targets, Russia is now shelling built up civilian areas, it had to come I suppose just adds to the list of war crimes
Mad Vlad has put his Nukes on an enhanced state of alert, surely he must realise than Moscow will be obliterated if he decides to use his nukes
Quote from: normal rules on February 28, 2022, 02:00:47 pmPerhaps we should allow Russia into NATO. Then No one is at risk. Far fetched? maybe.Possible? Anything is possible There's the nub of the problem.The Russian people would be far better off if Russia was a liberal democracy, integrated into the systems of European democracy and security. The EU. NATO.They would be richer, at peace and more secure.That's exactly why the old Soviet bloc countries have joined both.But Russian leaders have never wanted that. The want Russia to be a proud Great Power running its own sphere of influence.THAT is what this is all about. Putin wants Ukraine to be part of a Russian empire, not part of the West. That empire can be run and bled dry by the gangster bosses. If the people are terrorised and kept ignorant and in poverty, so be it.Anyone who has lazily complained about the EU being anti democratic needs to wake up now and see the bigger picture. This is what real tyrranical anti democracy looks like.
Based on the conversation Macron has had with mad glad today I’d do this. Tell him NATO and EU guarantee Ukraine’s neutrality. Stop the war as a result. Wait till he croaks it and then move the goalposts. Bide time, save lives.
Based on the conversation Macron has had with mad vlad today I’d do this. Tell him NATO and EU guarantee Ukraine’s neutrality. Stop the war as a result. Wait till he croaks it and then move the goalposts. Bide time, save lives.