Gas Prices

[SydneyRover]

Sounds like you are happy for the country to be held hostage by big business selby, cut taxes to gain their grace and then let them dictate via a desperate government on how much tax they pay ever?

They have already said that a windfall tax would not affect investment.

If the only string in her bow is for her to allow the country as a whole to pay dividends to energy company shareholders I would imaging it will be back to open season on the government relatively soon.

[drfchound]

Syd, I don’t think it does sound like selby is happy for the country to be held hostage by big business.

He is simply making some valid points about what could possibly happen if the said big companies are hit with significantly higher taxes.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....

All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?

[SydneyRover]

Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....

All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?

Which cases pud?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....

All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?

Let's be crystal clear about this.

Truss is today going to announce that she is going to borrow something north of £100bn and pump it straight into the pockets of Shell and BP.

That is what is happening. That's £100bn added to the Debt. That'll be used as a reason to excuse reduced Govt expenditure on public services in future, because "we have to control the debt."

We are giving them public money to take our own gas out of our own gas fields and sell it at obscene prices, inflated by a fascist warmonger.

Do you think your nitionif economic rightness might be letting you down here?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I had R4 on this morning, but was a bit distracted and didn't take this in.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1567780412415512578

I've gone back and listened again. Yep. That's what the new rising star minister said.

We are so, so far beyond any use of logic.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....

All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?

Let's be crystal clear about this.

Truss is today going to announce that she is going to borrow something north of £100bn and pump it straight into the pockets of Shell and BP.

That is what is happening. That's £100bn added to the Debt. That'll be used as a reason to excuse reduced Govt expenditure on public services in future, because "we have to control the debt."

We are giving them public money to take our own gas out of our own gas fields and sell it at obscene prices, inflated by a fascist warmonger.

Do you think your nitionif economic rightness might be letting you down here?

I think you misunderstand, my position is unchanged.

1. There absolutely should be additional taxes on the energy producers given the current scale.

2. There should be the opportunity to offset said taxes with capital investment.

3. This should not be a sole UK issue to deal with it should be spread worldwide with agreement across the piece.  I saw a good point this morning around Norway and whether they should be sharing the wealth they'll benefit from...  Difficult situation.

[SydneyRover]

Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....

All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?

Which cases pud?

bump

[normal rules]

Truss to lift the ban on fracking. 100 new licences being issued to drill for oil
And has in the North Sea. And I’m just over 7 years no new diesel and petrol cars to be sold .really ??

[tyke1962]

It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if  a Windfall Tax is introduced .

If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .

Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .

[glosterred]

It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if  a Windfall Tax is introduced .

If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .

Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .

What companies?

[BillyStubbsTears]

So it looks like someone on the minimum wage with average energy use  is going to see their bill go up by £1400, and they get a £400 handout.

Someone earning £100,000 with average energy use is going to see their bill go up by £1400. They are going to get a £400 handout and about £1100 back in reduced NI.

And that solves the problem, does it?

[ChrisBx]

Starmer absolutely annihilated Truss in the House of Commons earlier.

[tyke1962]

It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if  a Windfall Tax is introduced .

If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .

Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .

What companies?

I don't know because it's not happened yet but trust me they'd be plenty willing to make money even at a significantly lower level than today .

[tyke1962]

Starmer absolutely annihilated Truss in the House of Commons earlier.

Starmer is on the right side of this with the vast majority of the country saying the same thing .

The winds changed out there in the real world and this abhorrent Energy Plan is an absolute gift to Labour .

The country's had enough of this racket and whilst the Tories nail their colours to their outdated and unfuctionable ideology and still believe it's 1987 it's taking them to a comprehensive defeat at the next GE .

What we can clearly see now in parliament is clear daylight between blue and red , we've got a new PM who actually answers questions at PMQ's and is more or less telling the country It's business as usual and the same mandate that Thatcher planted in Dizzy Lizzy 's head , problem she's got is that it's a catastrophic failure with the end game with us now .

[mugnapper]

This plan sums up the Tory ethos and is why I've never voted Tory and never will.

[tyke1962]

This plan sums up the Tory ethos and is why I've never voted Tory and never will.

Since 2010 the Tory PM has always hid in broad daylight so to speak even though most of em were Thatcher disciples .

Dizzy Lizzy actually tells you she is at a time when it's just about the last play in the game you'd go with .

She's happy to tell you she thinks it's better the rich benefit the most from tax cuts .

She's happy to see grotesque profiteering by the energy companies .

She's told you that UK workers are lazy and feckless and need more hard graft to put them in their place .

She's happy to pick fights with Trade Unions .

Problem is she's 40 years out of date .

[albie]

Summary from Martin Lewis;
https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1567829040102342656/photo/1

More detail to come in the upcoming mini-budget from Kwarteng.

[Redroy]

Summary from Martin Lewis;
https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1567829040102342656/photo/1

More detail to come in the upcoming mini-budget from Kwarteng.

That's been the most nuts thing about today for me. No details whatsoever on finances, how it's going to be paid for and who is going to pay it.

Imagine how much a Labour PM would get crucified standing up in parliament and stating we are going to spend tens/hundreds of billions of pounds with no detail. f**king mental. People still blame a global financial crisis on Labour yet 12 years of this absolute shitshow and we are still f**ked and they still get a let off. Mindboggling.

[glosterred]

It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if  a Windfall Tax is introduced .

If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .

Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .

What companies?

I don't know because it's not happened yet but trust me they'd be plenty willing to make money even at a significantly lower level than today .

So you’re guessing then

[tyke1962]

It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if  a Windfall Tax is introduced .

If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .

Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .

What companies?

I don't know because it's not happened yet but trust me they'd be plenty willing to make money even at a significantly lower level than today .

So you’re guessing then

Not at all , the complete opposite to what I'm saying is that absolutely nobody would be remotely interested in providing the UK with its energy if the current ones did one despite healthy profit margins .

Do you think that's a likely scenario ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is an interesting angle which had t dawned on me.

https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1567776014738014208

It's really not a good look for Norway to be charging other NATO countries obscene prices for gas because the market says they can. When the market has been rigged by a fascist enemy of NATO.

[River Don]

That's sort of how I've been looking at it for a few days now.

Putin has been weaponising gas against us, with his control of Russian energy business like Gazprom.

Given western energy giants are making fortunes daily on the back of Putins war...  Why should we not expect them to contribute to the stability of the economies they operate within?

Why should the general population and small business shoulder the weight of this economic war alone?

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD.

The profits they are making are coming directly out of the pockets of consumers, and now, Government finances.

It is absolute insanity to allow them to walk off with that without taking those profits off them and giving them back to the British people.

[River Don]

Truss keeps saying the cost of this intervention can be mitigated  through the power of economic growth, (if us lazy sods pull our fingers out.)

But how can we grow the economy when energy is constrained? A growing economy needs energy and we don't have the gas! We are already being warned to expect blackouts!

Or perhaps to sustain the illusion of growth we keep buying more gas at massively inflated prices, loading the real cost on the national credit card?

Does this make any sense?

[BillyStubbsTears]

It makes zero sense in the short to medium term.

The gas price hike is costing us something like 5% of GDP. There is no way on God's earth we are going to see an annual rise in GDP of 5% a year after inflation any time soon.

It makes absolutely zero sense to not tax the UK based gas producers. And to put the squeeze in Norway too. Big style.

[River Don]

I just don't think Truss understands, this is not business as usual.

The gargantuan profits of the energy giants are not deserved or normal service. Economic growth in these circumstances will load ever more debt on the nation.

It's an economic war and needs to be treated as such.

[albie]

Truss appears to be suggesting a cap at 6.5% above the existing price level, paid for by an extended loan over an unspecified period.
In effect, Truss is offering a mortgage on future energy bills, to support the existing energy system.

The UK does not have to offer resources produced in the UK to international markets, it can apply simple export tariff barriers.
Leaving the sector unreformed will not add to UK energy security if those resources are sold on international markets.

There is no discussion of the real issue, which is decoupling electricity prices from wholesale gas markets.
The EU are discussing this change at the moment, and if they move, the UK will have to follow in step.

[River Don]

It looks like Centrica are going to do the government's job for it, in effect windfall taxing themselves.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/10/british-gas-cap-profits-cut-energy-bills-centrica-electricity

[SydneyRover]

Yes RD, I read it as sensible and as an attempt to maybe put off chatter about putting it all in public hands.