Revolution

[GazLaz]

Now feels like the perfect time for a revolution at this football club. A complete overhaul of what the clubs core principles are; a re-wire of how it thinks and a complete redirection on how it operates. There aren’t too many occasions throughout the lifecycle of a club where revolution feels like a better option than good solid evolution BUT this certainly feels like one of them.

Football and the way it is monitored and understood is going to change dramatically over the next 10-15 years (it’s already well under way). Principles and processes that are in place at clubs like RB Leipzig, Liverpool, Brighton and Brentford are eventually going to filter throughout the leagues as the price of data and the ability access infrastructure through third parties etc becomes easier and cheaper.

Some clubs will react quicker than others. MK Dons are an obvious example of a club that have already taken this way of working on board and it’s now starting to bear fruit. Those that adapt the quickest and smartest will have a pretty big operating advantage over the others.

It is going to eventually happen everywhere, and when it does we will regret not leading on this in 2022.

In two or three years time we will be back around to this point again. Looking for answers as to why we can’t compete at the level we think we should be at, and all this after spending hundreds of thousands more on infrastructure and support staff.

It feels to me as if we are going to spend a (relative) lot of money just to get up to a level of professionalism and organisation off the pitch which could still classify as average at best for a club our size. The remit for any restructure now HAS to be how can we find ways to do things differently to other clubs to gain an advantage. If we continue to TRY and do things the same way as everyone else, just maybe slightly better than what we are at present, we can’t compete with clubs with more money than us, it’s just impossible long term.

If you don’t have the resources to compete the only way to have any chance is to be smarter and I honestly don’t see how any edge can be gained with the though processes the club uses at the minute. Those thought processes will manifest into appointing whoever gets the HoFO role and it’s likely to end up another poor decision as the recognition that real change is needed just isn’t there.

In a nutshell, you cannot fully rectify what is wrong until you understand what is wrong and why it’s wrong. You can apply another sticking plaster, ie appointing an exceptional manager in McCann but the cracks will appear again when they move on and the pressure taps are turned up again.

We could bring in Mark Weaver as DoFO next season and do ok when we will have one of the best budgets in the division. At some point in the next few year the pressure taps will get get cranked up again and the cracks will open back up wider than ever.

[normal rules]

You can have all the data in the world, but when half of your first team gets crocked then it becomes a complete waste of time and money.
I’d love to see how MK would have faired this season with their “system” and injuries of the amount rovers  have suffered.
I’m not disagreeing with your point. Merely adding context to our woes this season.
Had we had a fully fit first team from the off, and for the majority of the season, we would not be having these sorts of conversations.

[GazLaz]

You can have all the data in the world, but when half of your first team gets crocked then it becomes a complete waste of time and money.
I’d love to see how MK would have faired this season with their “system” and injuries of the amount rovers  have suffered.
I’m not disagreeing with your point. Merely adding context to our woes this season.
Had we had a fully fit first team from the off, and for the majority of the season, we would not be having these sorts of conversations.

The spiralling out of control started prior to this season.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Gaz.
Agree 100%. Clubs that don't learn, and learn quickly how to use data analytics to maximise their effectiveness will rapidly be displaced by smarter clubs. Of course money will always matter, but if you want to be successful in future, that has to be allied to a more intelligent use of data.

My concern is that our club gives every impression of being 100% on the wrong side of this subject.

[roversdude]

It’s an excellent post Gaz and I agree we need to embrace anything that can give us an edge

[BillyStubbsTears]

You can have all the data in the world, but when half of your first team gets crocked then it becomes a complete waste of time and money.
I’d love to see how MK would have faired this season with their “system” and injuries of the amount rovers  have suffered.
I’m not disagreeing with your point. Merely adding context to our woes this season. Had we had a fully fit first team from the off, and for the majority of the season, we would not be having these sorts of conversations.

Maybe we wouldn't have had this conversation THIS close season. But we'd have been having it at some point in the 2020s. Maybe better sooner rather than later.

In this light, the DoFO role is absolutely fundamental. Bring in a dinosaur with 20th century thinking and we might see a short term improvement. But long term, we need a totally different mindset.

[roversdude]

I notice Canadian Rover has posted about the club being open, it would be great to hear GMc vision for the future and where he sees data analytics-he’s a young coach/manager so you would expect him to have his finger on the pulse

[DonnyOsmond]

You can have all the data in the world, but when half of your first team gets crocked then it becomes a complete waste of time and money.
I’d love to see how MK would have faired this season with their “system” and injuries of the amount rovers  have suffered.
I’m not disagreeing with your point. Merely adding context to our woes this season. Had we had a fully fit first team from the off, and for the majority of the season, we would not be having these sorts of conversations.

Maybe we wouldn't have had this conversation THIS close season. But we'd have been having it at some point in the 2020s. Maybe better sooner rather than later.

In this light, the DoFO role is absolutely fundamental. Bring in a dinosaur with 20th century thinking and we might see a short term improvement. But long term, we need a totally different mindset.

I.e. the people wanting a football manager like Warnock for that role. It's insane.

[ChrisBx]

100% agree.

[BiargeBob]

Whilst I agree with you NR, the cracks would still be there under the surface. It is no coincidence that 3 managers have walked out on the Rovers and I would assume they all left giving their reasons, other than to better themselves. It is these 3 that the Rovers should be having conversations with, asking them what is the basic problem with the way the club is run. I am sure none of them want the club to keep on failing, especially as they may require to return when they in turn are unemployed. Then perhaps the revolution can start.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Mostly agree but data isn't everything and actually we should not forget there's many equal if not more important parts to the cycle than data.

When everyone has access to the same data (which will happen) there needs to be many other factors that can create a USP.

So yes, take it forward to keep up, but actually don't lose sight of everything else and i feel that's the weakness we have, we focus on one or two things not the big picture.

[pib]

Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.

My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?

[GazLaz]

Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.

My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?

I’ve never spoken to the Chairman and he’s the person that makes the decisions regarding the direction of travel football wise. I’m pretty sure he’s not on the same page as myself.

[normal rules]

Whilst I agree with you NR, the cracks would still be there under the surface. It is no coincidence that 3 managers have walked out on the Rovers and I would assume they all left giving their reasons, other than to better themselves. It is these 3 that the Rovers should be having conversations with, asking them what is the basic problem with the way the club is run. I am sure none of them want the club to keep on failing, especially as they may require to return when they in turn are unemployed. Then perhaps the revolution can start.

I suspect Moore and Mcann leaving was mainly down to a fatter wage packet and the Kudos/ career progression of going to a bigger club.
Nowt to do with how drfc is run as a club.

[pib]

Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.

My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?

I’ve never spoken to the Chairman and he’s the person that makes the decisions regarding the direction of travel football wise. I’m pretty sure he’s not on the same page as myself.

It's a shame to hear. Hopefully this relegation will lead to more of a willingness to embrace new ideas.

[RoversAlias]

I think things like this need to be put to the club. It has been clear for a while that we are lagging far behind on the data/analytics front which is starting to take over the sport. Appointments like Graham Younger proved that we aren't where we need to be.

Does SM or anyone know if there is any scope to get this point made to Baldwin or Blunt?

[roversdude]

Gaz maybe SM can ask the question/s failing that whenever I have e mailed Gavin I’ve received a reply.

[Canadian Rover]

Great post Gaz.

I do think most Rovers fans would be open to listening to what a plan is. But there must be a plan for years now we have been operating blindly somewhat on the football path. The Club Doncaster thing is brilliant; we need to keep the whole of the club within some of the same guidance and expertise.

For me the chairman Mr Blunt has failed us on the footballing front. That's not to say he isn't brilliant or astute by any means - we just haven't seen proof of this ever.

The youth set up needs re-organizing and changing as well as development squads; and "reserve team football" a revolution as you said.

Loan signings need to be brought in to supplement the team and not to be the focus of the team in many ways. Young forwards and midfielders being relied upon to carry the team was always a disaster waiting to happen.

But most of all; and I say this above the managerial appointment/contract/position is the recruitment policy needs to be addressed and someone needs to be accountable. Way too many failings this season and previously on that front. As GMC said the way to change a club is to change the personnel.

[wilts rover]

There are only two ways to develop/progress as a football club. You can develop your own players - or you can buy them from another club that has developed them. That's as true now as it was 100 years ago.

How you indentify future players is neither here nor there - there are only a certain number of quality players and its a competitive market - so thats a case of funding - how much are you prepared to pay.

Ever since they have been here these particular owners have always said they wish Rovers to be a community club and to develop that community. That could be why they are so keen to promote from within.

If you are calling for all youth development and community work to stop - and all funding to be targeted towards the first team - then I doubt that will happen under these owners.

[normal rules]

Brentford started looked for foreign talent when they adopted their recruitment strategy. This is because they believe that local talents are generally inflated in the English football player market. They have made some very savvy uk based purchase too.
They bought cheap unknowns and turned them into valuable assets.
£151 million profit in last 6 years from player transfers .

[Alan Southstand]

Wilts, I don’t think anyone has suggested what you’ve said. What was said is that the youth set-up needs changing. Ever since we dropped the U23’s, we lost the development route for our own good young players. There simply has to be a clear path that gives every ‘promising’ young player every chance to make a success with us. Throwing young u18 players in the deep end, more often than not, means most of them will drown! Either have a path or don’t have a youth set-up at all.

And that’s only one small issue re what’s wrong. There has been some appalling decisions over the last few seasons.

[mushRTID]

Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.

My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?

I also remember a similar post from Gaz giving reasons why we might struggle this season. It would be interesting to revisit it.

Really good thread and whilst I’m not convinced data and stats are everything, it feels obvious that we as a club are a bit prehistoric behind the scenes.

[pib]

Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.

My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?

I also remember a similar post from Gaz giving reasons why we might struggle this season. It would be interesting to revisit it.

Really good thread and whilst I’m not convinced data and stats are everything, it feels obvious that we as a club are a bit prehistoric behind the scenes.

Here it is. Difficult to argue that it covers quite a few aspects of what has transpired to go wrong since: https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=281121.msg1056827#msg1056827

[drfchound]

I think things like this need to be put to the club. It has been clear for a while that we are lagging far behind on the data/analytics front which is starting to take over the sport. Appointments like Graham Younger proved that we aren't where we need to be.

Does SM or anyone know if there is any scope to get this point made to Baldwin or Blunt?

I believe that we have an analytics man coming to join us in the summer.

[Bessie Red]

Gaz maybe SM can ask the question/s failing that whenever I have e mailed Gavin I’ve received a reply.

Agreed that SM would be the ideal person to initially broach this with club and maybe get a meeting set up to look at your thoughts Gaz!

[normal rules]

I think things like this need to be put to the club. It has been clear for a while that we are lagging far behind on the data/analytics front which is starting to take over the sport. Appointments like Graham Younger proved that we aren't where we need to be.

Does SM or anyone know if there is any scope to get this point made to Baldwin or Blunt?

I believe that we have an analytics man coming to join us in the summer.

An analist?


*deliberate mis spelling*

[Sammy Chung was King]

Managers left for bigger club’s, that isn’t a surprise, what is, is that we had nobody in mind to succeed and went down the cheap route. It’s worth paying a good wage for a good manager, it’s the most important position at the club.

[selby]

  Data analytics have been used at the club to sign some of the  players we have at the club, and has been for quite a while, certainly since Darren Ferguson it has been used for first team players.
  As for our own games it is used even for youth team stats. The revolution has started by the way, probably not in the way some think it should, that's just tough, but it has started.

[Sammy Chung was King]

The data that is important is goal scorer, assists, goals conceded and clean sheets in my book. Most clubs are too reliant on them.
Mentality, attitude, playing under pressure, work rate, technique, personal background. Not all these can be measured with stats.

[GazLaz]

The data that is important is goal scorer, assists, goals conceded and clean sheets in my book. Most clubs are too reliant on them.
Mentality, attitude, playing under pressure, work rate, technique, personal background. Not all these can be measured with stats.

Data is a tool to aid better decision making as opposed to actually making the final decision. All the unquantifiables you mention are important also.