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What's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all? It shouldn't be an issue should it?
BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason
As an avowedly politically neutral person i look at this in its wider remit, The fact you used it to highlight that the poorest and most marginalised will be affected by it and become disenfranchised by it because they don't have a photo ID, driving licence or passport, just think about that for a moment, do you know anyone who doesn't possess any form of ID ?, how do people get official documentation or rights to healthcare and benefits? is this you standing up for the poorest and most needy in society or is this just another typical lefty rouse to excuse every issue in society as someone wanting to cause distress.Is it such a major issue to have a system of ID in this country, why can other countries manage to cope and deal with it, are we saying their poor and underprivileged are better organised their ours?I noticed that you didn't respond to my second paragraph, was this because it made sense and didn't fit in with your narrative.Will a future Labour administration work at ensuring that the people you highlight have these minimum requirements so it's not a barrier to them exercising their democratic rights, you could also question why this was not a priority for past Labour administrations or is it that now a different dynamic is prevalent? could it be that any future gov requires to know exactly how many people are in the country and needs to make meaningful plans for the requirements of society like schools, hospitals, healthcare, housing and work or do these things not matter ?Its a noble for you to be on the side of the poorest, marginalise and disenfranchised and to fight for the betterment of their rights and needs, but do you not think that as a whole for society to function correctly it needs to have basic rules and norms that everyone needs to adhere to or are we happy to have even more new additions to the growing underclass in this county.Is this not something that a properly working and enforced ID system would enable?My family came to this country to escape poverty and to create a new life for themselves and their kids in a society that would enable them to thrive and prosper, they worked extremely hard to raise a large family and they prospered due to the hard work and by integrating into this countries ideals, norms and desires, is this not something that we should be encouraging today from all our citizens.Whoever you are and wherever you're from a successful and prosperous existence can be achieved if you buy into what this society requires you to do as a minimum.
Quote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 01:10:05 pmBST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reasonSame old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.
Quote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on August 08, 2022, 12:28:21 pmWhat's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all? It shouldn't be an issue should it?But that will cost money to create, when it's not needed? I thought you were financially conservative.
Quote from: DonnyOsmond on August 08, 2022, 12:44:21 pmQuote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on August 08, 2022, 12:28:21 pmWhat's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all? It shouldn't be an issue should it?But that will cost money to create, when it's not needed? I thought you were financially conservative.Of course it would, but I've always believed in ID cards anyway. Many countries have it, I don't really see the issue with it and actually it's only those who don't drive, have a passport or are really disadvantaged it would take to pay for it.One day we will probably all have implants anyway.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on August 08, 2022, 03:12:54 pmQuote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 01:10:05 pmBST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reasonSame old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning there
Quote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 03:38:56 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on August 08, 2022, 03:12:54 pmQuote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 01:10:05 pmBST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reasonSame old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning thereI get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdfOne day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on August 08, 2022, 04:03:47 pmQuote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 03:38:56 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on August 08, 2022, 03:12:54 pmQuote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 01:10:05 pmBST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reasonSame old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning thereI get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdfOne day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices. Of course I argue everything I’m a Yorkshireman what do you expect? Doesn’t mean I love you any less (and you Syd, aye!) but we both know socio-economic factors are less at play than ethnic factors when it comes to both photo Id and voting Labour. That’s what I’m on about
Quote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 03:38:56 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on August 08, 2022, 03:12:54 pmQuote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 01:10:05 pmBST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reasonSame old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning thereI get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdfOne day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices.
Quote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on August 08, 2022, 03:53:45 pmQuote from: DonnyOsmond on August 08, 2022, 12:44:21 pmQuote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on August 08, 2022, 12:28:21 pmWhat's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all? It shouldn't be an issue should it?But that will cost money to create, when it's not needed? I thought you were financially conservative.Of course it would, but I've always believed in ID cards anyway. Many countries have it, I don't really see the issue with it and actually it's only those who don't drive, have a passport or are really disadvantaged it would take to pay for it.One day we will probably all have implants anyway.The argument about whether we should have ID cards is a secondary one. My point is, in the absence of an absolutely comprehensive system where EVERYONE has a photo-ID, introducing the requirement for photo ID to allow someone to vote is very, very anti-democratic.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on August 08, 2022, 04:03:47 pmQuote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 03:38:56 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on August 08, 2022, 03:12:54 pmQuote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 01:10:05 pmBST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reasonSame old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning thereI get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdfOne day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices. Of course I argue everything I’m a Yorkshireman what do you expect? Doesn’t mean I love you any less (and you Syd, aye!) but we both know socio-economic factors are less at play than ethnic factors when it comes to both photo Id and voting Labour. That’s what I’m on about
Quote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 03:38:56 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on August 08, 2022, 03:12:54 pmQuote from: Ldr on August 08, 2022, 01:10:05 pmBST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reasonSame old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning thereI get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdfOne day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices.
If not having voter ID is a threat to democracy then all those that want it should be supporting an inquiry into the interference by the russians in UK politics, agreed?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on August 08, 2022, 04:00:34 pmQuote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on August 08, 2022, 03:53:45 pmQuote from: DonnyOsmond on August 08, 2022, 12:44:21 pmQuote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on August 08, 2022, 12:28:21 pmWhat's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all? It shouldn't be an issue should it?But that will cost money to create, when it's not needed? I thought you were financially conservative.Of course it would, but I've always believed in ID cards anyway. Many countries have it, I don't really see the issue with it and actually it's only those who don't drive, have a passport or are really disadvantaged it would take to pay for it.One day we will probably all have implants anyway.The argument about whether we should have ID cards is a secondary one. My point is, in the absence of an absolutely comprehensive system where EVERYONE has a photo-ID, introducing the requirement for photo ID to allow someone to vote is very, very anti-democratic. Agree actually. They've been talking about this for how long now? It should be easy to implement the tech exists. But they can't implement it without doing the work, that much is very true and doing so is morally wrong.[/I don't think anyone sane would disagree that it's morally wrong to implement without carrying out all the required due diligence but it doesn't make it wrong to consider implementing such a scheme.To keep harping on about voter fraud in the wider context of ID cards is disingenuous as that's what i was referring to but it fits this narrative nicely. Many of the people that the OP refers to could well find their lives are made more tolerable by the introduction of such a scheme, if they are entitled to any benefits and services this would remove a deal of doubt and strife for them. I pointed out earlier that the EU resettlement scheme would of been far less stressful for a great many if it had already been implemented. Labour made a massive issue out of this during the changeover. Very odd that the OP had nothing to say about this?