Voter ID

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm sensibg that this Govt will have a new "woke" target to aim its fire at.

https://www.aea-elections.co.uk/policy-reporting/statements-communications/news-release-on-letter-to-secretary-of-state-about-the-elections-act-2022-voter-id/#

AEA by the way is the organisation that administers and runs free and fair elections in the UK.

Keep an eye out for how the Govt responds to this.

[danumdon]

BST regardless of your "hunch" don't you think its a valid situation to have a system in place to prevent abuse in not just elections but also everyday life in general.

I will agree that this initiative needs some time to get right in the first instance but this country is crying out for some order. If ID controls had been introduced years ago it would have prevented the massive confusion and issues with registration of EU settled status.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.
The evidence shows that voter fraud at polling stations in this country is rarer than rocking horse shit.

What this has the potential to do is to disenfranchise anyone who doesn't have a photo ID. Non-driving, non-passport holding people. The poorest and most marginalised in society. To supposedly address a problem that doesn't actually exist.

Bringing in photo ID requirements is following the lead of the American Republicans who have done it very successfully, squeezing a lot of poor people (who disproportionately vote Democrat) out of the electorate.

That's the basic principle.

Now read the actual link I posted.

If you insist on bringing in voter ID, there is a way of ensuring these problems don't happen. That's what the link is talking about. It involves making sure that everyone (that's EVERYONE) on the electoral roll has a photo ID.

The AEA are saying that the Govt has issued zero guidance on this and us offering zero funding for it. But the Govt us still charging headlong into requiring photo ID in next May's council elections.

The AEA, a politically neutral,  independent body, is saying there is a very, very big danger that this will mean the elections will be unfair.

What do you think about that? As an avowedly politically neutral person?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

What's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all?  It shouldn't be an issue should it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

That is a massive IT project. If you're wanting that, invest in it. Dont just airily say you require photo ID to vote when 10% of the population has no photo ID.

[DonnyOsmond]

What's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all?  It shouldn't be an issue should it?

But that will cost money to create, when it's not needed? I thought you were financially conservative.

[turnbull for england]

 I doubt my Mum has any photo ID , never driven, not needed a passport for 20 yrs.  Will probably just end up postal voting

[drfchound]

Postal voting is the obvious answer isn’t it.
I think bst is whipping up something into a problem that doesn’t exist.

[danumdon]

As an avowedly politically neutral person i look at this in its wider remit, The fact you used it to highlight that the poorest and most marginalised will be affected by it and become disenfranchised by it because they don't have a photo ID, driving licence or passport, just think about that for a moment, do you know anyone who doesn't possess any form of ID ?, how do people get official documentation or rights to healthcare and benefits? is this you standing up for the poorest and most needy in society or is this just another typical lefty rouse to excuse every issue in society as someone wanting to cause distress.

Is it such a major issue to have a system of ID in this country, why can other countries manage to cope and deal with it, are we saying their poor and underprivileged are better organised their ours?

I noticed that you didn't respond to my second paragraph, was this because it made sense and didn't fit in with your narrative.

Will a future Labour administration work at ensuring that the people you highlight have these minimum requirements so it's not a barrier to them exercising their democratic rights, you could also question why this was not a priority for past Labour administrations or is it that now a different dynamic is prevalent? could it be that any future gov requires to know exactly how many people are in the country and needs to make meaningful plans for the requirements of society like schools, hospitals, healthcare, housing and work or do these things not matter ?

Its a noble for you to be on the side of the poorest, marginalise and disenfranchised and to fight for the betterment of their rights and needs, but do you not think that as a whole for society to function correctly it needs to have basic rules and norms that everyone needs to adhere to or are we happy to have even more new additions to the growing underclass in this county.Is this not something that a properly working and enforced ID system would enable?

My family came to this country to escape poverty and to create a new life for themselves and their kids in a society that would enable them to thrive and prosper, they worked extremely hard to raise a large family and they prospered due to the hard work and by integrating into this countries ideals, norms and desires, is this not something that we should be encouraging today from all our citizens.

Whoever you are and wherever you're from a successful and prosperous existence can be achieved if you buy into what this society requires you to do as a minimum.

[Ldr]

BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason

[danumdon]

BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason

I think you could also say that people who don't have or want to have any form of ID for whatever reason probably would not choose to vote in the first instance.

[selby]

  Billy, if you had to attend a voting station, and if you had to prove who you actually were, and if you were entitled to vote.
  Which political party would you think it would advantage?
   And, do you accept that every other system is open to manipulation?

[turnbull for england]

I do know for a fact, that if everyone requested a postal vote, there would need to be significant changes in the current system just down to the logistics involved

[BillyStubbsTears]

As an avowedly politically neutral person i look at this in its wider remit, The fact you used it to highlight that the poorest and most marginalised will be affected by it and become disenfranchised by it because they don't have a photo ID, driving licence or passport, just think about that for a moment, do you know anyone who doesn't possess any form of ID ?, how do people get official documentation or rights to healthcare and benefits? is this you standing up for the poorest and most needy in society or is this just another typical lefty rouse to excuse every issue in society as someone wanting to cause distress.

Is it such a major issue to have a system of ID in this country, why can other countries manage to cope and deal with it, are we saying their poor and underprivileged are better organised their ours?

I noticed that you didn't respond to my second paragraph, was this because it made sense and didn't fit in with your narrative.

Will a future Labour administration work at ensuring that the people you highlight have these minimum requirements so it's not a barrier to them exercising their democratic rights, you could also question why this was not a priority for past Labour administrations or is it that now a different dynamic is prevalent? could it be that any future gov requires to know exactly how many people are in the country and needs to make meaningful plans for the requirements of society like schools, hospitals, healthcare, housing and work or do these things not matter ?

Its a noble for you to be on the side of the poorest, marginalise and disenfranchised and to fight for the betterment of their rights and needs, but do you not think that as a whole for society to function correctly it needs to have basic rules and norms that everyone needs to adhere to or are we happy to have even more new additions to the growing underclass in this county.Is this not something that a properly working and enforced ID system would enable?

My family came to this country to escape poverty and to create a new life for themselves and their kids in a society that would enable them to thrive and prosper, they worked extremely hard to raise a large family and they prospered due to the hard work and by integrating into this countries ideals, norms and desires, is this not something that we should be encouraging today from all our citizens.

Whoever you are and wherever you're from a successful and prosperous existence can be achieved if you buy into what this society requires you to do as a minimum.

First paragraph was enough for me. It's not about whether I or you know anyone affected.  Frankly, I have zero idea if people I know  have photo ID, but I do know several who have never driven and have never left the country, so I'm struggling to think why they would have photo ID. But that's irrelevant. There have been detailed surveys done on this issue. The independent  Electoral Commission estimates that 3.5 million adults don't have photo ID.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/more-three-million-uk-voters-have-no-form-photo-id

You'll also see in that article that there were a grand total of SIX cases of electoral fraud in 2019 that led to a conviction or a police fine.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason

Same old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.

[Ldr]

BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason

Same old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.

Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning there

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

What's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all?  It shouldn't be an issue should it?

But that will cost money to create, when it's not needed? I thought you were financially conservative.

Of course it would, but I've always believed in ID cards anyway. Many countries have it, I don't really see the issue with it and actually it's only those who don't drive, have a passport or are really disadvantaged it would take to pay for it.

One day we will probably all have implants anyway.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all?  It shouldn't be an issue should it?

But that will cost money to create, when it's not needed? I thought you were financially conservative.

Of course it would, but I've always believed in ID cards anyway. Many countries have it, I don't really see the issue with it and actually it's only those who don't drive, have a passport or are really disadvantaged it would take to pay for it.

One day we will probably all have implants anyway.

The argument about whether we should have ID cards is a secondary one.

My point is, in the absence of an absolutely comprehensive system where EVERYONE has a photo-ID, introducing the requirement for photo ID to allow someone to vote is very, very anti-democratic.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason

Same old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.

Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning there

I get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.

Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdf

One day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices.

[Ldr]

BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason

Same old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.

Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning there

I get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.

Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdf

One day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices.

Of course I argue everything I’m a Yorkshireman what do you expect? Doesn’t mean I love you any less (and you Syd, aye!) but we both know socio-economic factors are less at play than ethnic factors when it comes to both photo Id and voting Labour. That’s what I’m on about

[drfchound]

BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason

Same old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.

Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning there

I get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.

Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdf

One day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices.

Of course I argue everything I’m a Yorkshireman what do you expect? Doesn’t mean I love you any less (and you Syd, aye!) but we both know socio-economic factors are less at play than ethnic factors when it comes to both photo Id and voting Labour. That’s what I’m on about

We wouldn’t have heard a peep from him had Labour introduced this.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

What's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all?  It shouldn't be an issue should it?

But that will cost money to create, when it's not needed? I thought you were financially conservative.

Of course it would, but I've always believed in ID cards anyway. Many countries have it, I don't really see the issue with it and actually it's only those who don't drive, have a passport or are really disadvantaged it would take to pay for it.

One day we will probably all have implants anyway.

The argument about whether we should have ID cards is a secondary one.

My point is, in the absence of an absolutely comprehensive system where EVERYONE has a photo-ID, introducing the requirement for photo ID to allow someone to vote is very, very anti-democratic.

Agree actually. They've been talking about this for how long now? It should be easy to implement the tech exists. But they can't implement it without doing the work, that much is very true and doing so is morally wrong.

[SydneyRover]

A massive IT problem? dido harding step up to the oche, you killed it with the track and trace system app

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason

Same old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.

Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning there

I get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.

Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdf

One day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices.

Of course I argue everything I’m a Yorkshireman what do you expect? Doesn’t mean I love you any less (and you Syd, aye!) but we both know socio-economic factors are less at play than ethnic factors when it comes to both photo Id and voting Labour. That’s what I’m on about

I don't know anything of the sort. How do you know this?

[SydneyRover]

If not having voter ID is a threat to democracy then all those that want it should be supporting an inquiry into the interference by the russians in UK politics, agreed?

[drfchound]

If not having voter ID is a threat to democracy then all those that want it should be supporting an inquiry into the interference by the russians in UK politics, agreed?

Have you got any figures to say how many Russians voted in our elections or referendum Syd.

[danumdon]

What's the problem with a free photo ID scheme for all?  It shouldn't be an issue should it?

But that will cost money to create, when it's not needed? I thought you were financially conservative.

Of course it would, but I've always believed in ID cards anyway. Many countries have it, I don't really see the issue with it and actually it's only those who don't drive, have a passport or are really disadvantaged it would take to pay for it.

One day we will probably all have implants anyway.

The argument about whether we should have ID cards is a secondary one.

My point is, in the absence of an absolutely comprehensive system where EVERYONE has a photo-ID, introducing the requirement for photo ID to allow someone to vote is very, very anti-democratic.

Agree actually. They've been talking about this for how long now? It should be easy to implement the tech exists. But they can't implement it without doing the work, that much is very true and doing so is morally wrong.
[/

I don't think anyone sane would disagree that it's morally wrong to implement without carrying out all the required due diligence but it doesn't make it wrong to consider implementing such a scheme.

To keep harping on about voter fraud in the wider context of ID cards is disingenuous  as that's what i was referring to but it fits this narrative nicely.

Many of the people that the OP refers to could well find their lives are made more tolerable by the introduction of such a scheme, if they are entitled to any benefits and services this would remove a deal of doubt and strife for them. I pointed out earlier that the EU resettlement scheme would of been far less stressful for a great many if it had already been implemented. Labour made a massive issue out of this during the changeover. Very odd that the OP had nothing to say about this?

[danumdon]

BST is put out as this will disproportionately affect those who would tend to vote Labour, no higher moralistic reason

Same old b*llocks. For the record, pretty much every poll these days has a higher proportion of people from lower socio-economic groups supporting the Tories than the proportion of higher socio-economic groups who support them. This is an issue of democracy for me, not of partisan advantage.

Am sure someone will believe you, possibly in around 6 hours when it’s morning there

I get that you have trouble backing down when you've decided I'm being hypocritical. So I'll smooth the path for you.

Top 2 lines here in the "Social Grades" columns.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/q1mp5as95f/TheTimes_VI_220728_W.pdf

One day, you might start accepting what I say at face value, rather than painting it with your own prejudices.

I would imagine that YouGov pool would make quite uncomfortable reading for some and interesting reading for others when you take the "don't knows " into consideration.

[Hounslowrover]

Hound, interference does not mean voting and the report into it wasn’t published, wonder why?

[SydneyRover]

''Intelligence and Security Committee Russia report'' (binocular vision recommended)

conclusions

''According to the report, there is substantial evidence that Russian interference in British politics is commonplace.[3][4] According to the Guardian, the main points of the report are:[2]

UK government failed to investigate evidence of successful interference in democratic processes
‘Credible open-source commentary’ suggesting Russia sought to influence Scottish independence referendum

Russian influence in the UK is ‘the new normal’

Links between Russian elite and UK politics

Intelligence community ‘took its eye off the ball’ on Russia

UK's paper-and-pencil voting system makes direct interference harder

Defending UK's democratic processes is a ‘hot potato’

Errors in Salisbury poisoning and weapons watchdog hack do not diminish Moscow threat

New legislation needed to replace outdated spy laws.

The report describes the United Kingdom as one of Russia's "top targets" and said it is "seen as central to the Western anti-Russian lobby".[16]

Since the government had not authorised any investigation into the matter, the committee found no evidence that Russian interference had affected the Brexit referendum. Any such attempt without specific authorisation was not within the purview of British intelligence services as any such actions by the security services themselves could be seen as interference, itself undermining democracy.[17]

However, the report did discover some evidence of co-ordinated interference in online narratives following the 2014 Scottish independence referendum in efforts to spread uncertainty over the result.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.

I wouldn't want to suggest that those barracking for voter ID where negligible fraud occurs are being hypocritical (but I will cos they are) .................... when they ignore a direct threat from russian interference where a need to investigate it has been established.

And some accuse others of ulterior motives.