Emergency Meeting (FAO Silent_majority)

[silent majority]

Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....

BobG

Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.

I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.

BobG

Is it not the case that Bramall subsidises the club? And do we actually get to see the complete accounts? I get the impression that they don’t make any profit and that there will be losses brought forward to offset any future profits (if any are likely). So no tax would be payable would it?

We’re not a loss making club anymore, therefore no subsidy is required.

[since-1969]

Is L2 a better fit for the club with lower wages and still reasonable crowds still in attendance ?

I’m not sure how many times I have to answer this very question on this forum, and I’m sure I’ve done this on at least 8/9 occasions, but the answer is no.

The reduction in player wages and lower ticket prices and attendance does not in anyway compensate for the loss in solidarity payments and TV revenue.

We’re better off in lg1.

So WHY the procrastination over finding a fully seasoned replacement for Darren Moore , as he left is in L1 in a playoff place with games in hand , so the  powers in charge abandoned the their tried and proven “Right man for the job approach “ ??. What are they saying now about this decision to appoint amateurs instead of professionals?

[roversdude]

A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above

[Lincoln Rover]

SM has already rightly stated on here where the club is at the mo.
In my capacity as Shadow Board chair I can clarify.
There is NO transfer embargo
No one other than the club has paid the players wages.
The club isn’t going into administration.
The club ( Club Doncaster, which Donny Rovers is part of) has no financial difficulties WHATSOEVER.
I don’t know how much simpler I can put this.
Thanks.
DD

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Equally Lincoln, does it have much aims other than ticking over as a sustainable lower league club with the odd flirtation with the play offs?

Having no financial issues is brilliant don't get me wrong but where's the push to be a bit more successful?

Explaining my point it seems clear to me the owner has little desire to spend any more (not a criticism) and in modern football you probably need that. So is there any intention for them to actively find someone who will spend significant sums or even modest sums?

Whilst we aren't in any difficulty I don't see much signs of the above or investment in the infrastructure of the club.

[bpoolrover]

A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above

the problem is he was reliant on loans to secure better players, while you can get decent players on a free transfer when you very rarely pay any transfer fee it means we’re then restricted to the Loan market

[Lincoln Rover]

BFYP.
Rather than me rattle on, would you please wait 24/48 hours to digest news from the club on this. NONE of this is bad I can assure you. Then I’ll be happy to discuss. Thank you.

[ForsolongaRover]

Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....

BobG

Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.

I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.

BobG

Is it not the case that Bramall subsidises the club? And do we actually get to see the complete accounts? I get the impression that they don’t make any profit and that there will be losses brought forward to offset any future profits (if any are likely). So no tax would be payable would it?

We’re not a loss making club anymore, therefore no subsidy is required.

I based my comment on the DFP article https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-accounts-latest-filings-and-why-rovers-ps34m-losses-are-nothing-to-be-concerned-about-3292303.
Are we to assume that profits from Club Doncaster subsidises Doncaster Rovers Ltd? Would it be wrong to assume then that Mr Bramall is still providing loans to any of the associated companies?

If we were able to refer to the Business Plan would we be able to discover exactly what money is available for the forthcoming transfer window? And can the amount be revealed?

[selby]

  Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
  It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.

[ravenrover]

A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above

the problem is he was reliant on loans to secure better players, while you can get decent players on a free transfer when you very rarely pay any transfer fee it means we’re then restricted to the Loan market

Thete is no such thing as a "free transfer". The signing on fee can approach the realms of a club to club transfer

[bpoolrover]

A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above

the problem is he was reliant on loans to secure better players, while you can get decent players on a free transfer when you very rarely pay any transfer fee it means we’re then restricted to the Loan market

Thete is no such thing as a "free transfer". The signing on fee can approach the realms of a club to club transfer

no I understand that I meant not paying a transfer fee

[Glyn_Wigley]

I said it would be a hugely dangerous thhing to fiddle attendance figures. I then remsrked that I thought there were only 700 or so attending a keague match in that final Firestarter season. The two points are entirely unrelated.

BobG

It's Hound that's inferring that the official attendance isn't accurate. It'd be very odd for any football club to artificially inflate (and pay tax on) attendances with phantom attendees just to try and fool their fans into thinking the crowds aren't going down.

[Glyn_Wigley]

A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above

the problem is he was reliant on loans to secure better players, while you can get decent players on a free transfer when you very rarely pay any transfer fee it means we’re then restricted to the Loan market

Thete is no such thing as a "free transfer". The signing on fee can approach the realms of a club to club transfer

no I understand that I meant not paying a transfer fee

It doesn't matter to whom or where the money goes to, it's still leaving the club.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP.
Rather than me rattle on, would you please wait 24/48 hours to digest news from the club on this. NONE of this is bad I can assure you. Then I’ll be happy to discuss. Thank you.

Yes of course, does that suggest some form of news or announcement to come from the football club?

[Lincoln Rover]

BFYP
Yes. Again nothing to get alarmed about, I can assure you.

[drfchound]

I said it would be a hugely dangerous thhing to fiddle attendance figures. I then remsrked that I thought there were only 700 or so attending a keague match in that final Firestarter season. The two points are entirely unrelated.

BobG

Yes I know what you posted but, your post number 65 about tax shenanigans came straight after Glyn said he has seen official attendance numbers, which clearly indicates that your comment was about that.
Your post about the 700 fans at a game was made about four hours later.

[drfchound]

I said it would be a hugely dangerous thhing to fiddle attendance figures. I then remsrked that I thought there were only 700 or so attending a keague match in that final Firestarter season. The two points are entirely unrelated.

BobG

It's Hound that's inferring that the official attendance isn't accurate. It'd be very odd for any football club to artificially inflate (and pay tax on) attendances with phantom attendees just to try and fool their fans into thinking the crowds aren't going down.

Glyn, now you are missing the point.
I am not saying that the club are fiddling anything.
They are not artificially inflating the official attendance figures, I haven’t said anything of the sort.
I am simply saying that I don’t think there are as many people in the ground as the official attendance states.
Due to some ST holders not attending.
Don’t misrepresent what I am saying.

[BobG]

Those who have paid are counted as attending. If it were not so it would cause serious accounting difficulties about the timing of recognising revenue. You can't recognise income for a service that has not been provided. Whether or not a season ticket holder physically attends is entirely irrelevant. He has to be counted as attending whether he does or does not to allow the appropriate portion of his season ticket fee to be recognised in the accounts. So fantasies about over stating attendances are entirely born of ignorance.

BobG

[drfchound]

Those who have paid are counted as attending. If it were not so it would cause serious accounting difficulties about the timing of recognising revenue. You can't recognise income for a service that has not been provided. Whether or not a season ticket holder physically attends is entirely irrelevant. He has to be counted as attending whether he does or does not to allow the appropriate portion of his season ticket fee to be recognised in the accounts. So fantasies about over stating attendances are entirely born of ignorance.

BobG

Even now you miss the point I am making.
It isn’t irrelevant to say that there aren’t as many people in the ground as the official figures say.
I’m surprised that a man of superior intellect can’t understand that that is all I am saying.
Never mind.
I am not suggesting for one minute that the club are doing anything wrong.

[BobG]

Defending the indefensible is unbecoming Hound.Read what I wrote.

Bob

[drfchound]

I did but evidently you didn’t read what I wrote.
Goodnight.

[TheFunk]

Those who have paid are counted as attending. If it were not so it would cause serious accounting difficulties about the timing of recognising revenue. You can't recognise income for a service that has not been provided. Whether or not a season ticket holder physically attends is entirely irrelevant. He has to be counted as attending whether he does or does not to allow the appropriate portion of his season ticket fee to be recognised in the accounts. So fantasies about over stating attendances are entirely born of ignorance.

BobG

Hallelujah someone who recognises how accountancy works. It's not a choice of the club it's internationally recognised accountancy standards.

[drfchound]

Those who have paid are counted as attending. If it were not so it would cause serious accounting difficulties about the timing of recognising revenue. You can't recognise income for a service that has not been provided. Whether or not a season ticket holder physically attends is entirely irrelevant. He has to be counted as attending whether he does or does not to allow the appropriate portion of his season ticket fee to be recognised in the accounts. So fantasies about over stating attendances are entirely born of ignorance.

BobG

Hallelujah someone who recognises how accountancy works. It's not a choice of the club it's internationally recognised accountancy standards.

Yep, I totally agree.
You don’t have to be a genius to understand that.

[ForsolongaRover]

  Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
  It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.

I get the impression that a lot of people are “brassed off” with quite a few of the recent transfer dealings. Failing to make sensible use of funds seems a legitimate criticism.

As you say, it about getting value for money, but we are in no position to judge if we do not know what money is being made available or spent.

Also Baldwin devoted an interview with the DFP about the Business Plan and later washed his hands of it when it clearly failed with the excuse that the footballing side of the club was not his responsibility. The Plan was never mentioned again, so presumably no one took ownership. No Business Plan has been mentioned since, so perhaps there is no plan anymore.

[silent majority]

Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....

BobG

Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.

I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.

BobG

Is it not the case that Bramall subsidises the club? And do we actually get to see the complete accounts? I get the impression that they don’t make any profit and that there will be losses brought forward to offset any future profits (if any are likely). So no tax would be payable would it?

We’re not a loss making club anymore, therefore no subsidy is required.

I based my comment on the DFP article https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-accounts-latest-filings-and-why-rovers-ps34m-losses-are-nothing-to-be-concerned-about-3292303.
Are we to assume that profits from Club Doncaster subsidises Doncaster Rovers Ltd? Would it be wrong to assume then that Mr Bramall is still providing loans to any of the associated companies?

If we were able to refer to the Business Plan would we be able to discover exactly what money is available for the forthcoming transfer window? And can the amount be revealed?

Crikey, that’s a lot of questions which may need more clarification than I can offer.

I would start by saying that article is out of date, sort of! It was probably accurate at the time but things have changed recently in as much as the commercial aspects of Club Doncaster enable the club to operate at a break even position.

Two points, firstly TB has never operated a system where he loans money to the club. He might do as a temporary accounting step but ultimately they are converted to share issues.

And the operation of Club Doncaster subsidises the operation of DRFC. If CD didn’t exist we would be a club in debt, no question.

And finally, no. You can’t estimate what’s available in the window.

[silent majority]

  Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
  It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.

I get the impression that a lot of people are “brassed off” with quite a few of the recent transfer dealings. Failing to make sensible use of funds seems a legitimate criticism.

As you say, it about getting value for money, but we are in no position to judge if we do not know what money is being made available or spent.

Also Baldwin devoted an interview with the DFP about the Business Plan and later washed his hands of it when it clearly failed with the excuse that the footballing side of the club was not his responsibility. The Plan was never mentioned again, so presumably no one took ownership. No Business Plan has been mentioned since, so perhaps there is no plan anymore.

I have no idea what any of that means.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

  Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
  It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.

I get the impression that a lot of people are “brassed off” with quite a few of the recent transfer dealings. Failing to make sensible use of funds seems a legitimate criticism.

As you say, it about getting value for money, but we are in no position to judge if we do not know what money is being made available or spent.

Also Baldwin devoted an interview with the DFP about the Business Plan and later washed his hands of it when it clearly failed with the excuse that the footballing side of the club was not his responsibility. The Plan was never mentioned again, so presumably no one took ownership. No Business Plan has been mentioned since, so perhaps there is no plan anymore.

Not sure if you're referring to the '5 Year plan' which some folk keep referring to as a means to bash the club with.

A few years ago GB did talk about a 5 year plan but that gets thrown out of the window to a large degree when there's a rapid change in manager, change in other key personnel, covid etc etc, then a rethink of how we operate from the football side of the operation. So much instability that a 5 year plan was dead in the water so I'm surprised people tried to hold the club to it.

Since the appointment of JC, there may be a new plan or a set of objectives however it may be something that's fluid and will evolve.

As far as we're concerned, all we need to know is the stated aim of getting promoted.

[silent majority]

Equally Lincoln, does it have much aims other than ticking over as a sustainable lower league club with the odd flirtation with the play offs?

Having no financial issues is brilliant don't get me wrong but where's the push to be a bit more successful?

Explaining my point it seems clear to me the owner has little desire to spend any more (not a criticism) and in modern football you probably need that. So is there any intention for them to actively find someone who will spend significant sums or even modest sums?

Whilst we aren't in any difficulty I don't see much signs of the above or investment in the infrastructure of the club.

OK bfyp, lets see if I can address some of this.

Where's the push to be more successful? Surely making sure that the manager has a budget in the 4/5/6 of the division is proof enough is it not? If not where should it be? If we should be spending another £1m in addition to what we already do who, and how, should that be financed?

Where is the desire to be more successful? I'm not sure what you mean. On the pitch? Off the pitch? They can only control one of those areas of operation. They make funds available, what more do you want them to do? Get somebody else in to finance the debt? How does that work? Do they buy into the club? Do they get a free pass just to throw a few million at the club?

You see no evidence of them actively looking for somebody to invest considerable sums into the club? No, probably not, but in fairness why would they make it so obvious? A for sale sign on the side of the West Stand? You know it doesn't work like that.

And finally, you see no signs of investment in the infrastructure of the club. The appointment of a HoF is an investment isn't it? Have you been to Cantley Park and seen the changes that JC has insisted on and have been implemented? Probably not, but it has all been documented and reported on on several occasions.

To add to that, major changes have been carried out behind the scenes at the Eco Power recently, refurbishment of the gym, soccer centre and in the utility operational area of the stadium cost, as you no doubt are aware, cost many £1,00's. This has been a continual policy of CD for some time now.

I think you need to readdress some of the points you raise.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

To be fair to BFYP, I dont think there's a clear understanding how the financing of the club works including TBs input and that of GB and DB as major shareholders.

Some may think every season, TB will make a conscious decision how much to subsidise the club and that determines the size of the playing budget. Some might think every time we want to sign a player, DB being the guardian of the cheque book, says yay or nay depending what mood he's in. 

It's not beyond the realm of wishful thinking that folk hope that TB will say "Oh f*ck it, this year we're going for it, here's an extra £mil"

[Sammy Chung was King]

We are by no means a sacking club, but we have lacked continuity of ideas-we need a long term manager, hopefully Danny is the man for that. We have our own side, it isn’t a borrowed eleven, that is progress. The way the club does things on the football side, that seems to have improved. I’m not worried about the financial side I have trust in the owner that things will be done properly.

For me i don’t know if work is being done on this but our scouting of potential players needs to improve. We need players to develop that we can sell onto a bigger club then reinvest in the side and scouting for more.
The current side needs another George Miller to help the current one, our bench isn’t strong enough. So as well as that striker that is wanted, we also need another striker to add to that and  we need a powerful athletic midfielder with a bit of technique, to control our midfield.

We could do with a solid and reliable centre half. A player that organises things back there. We’ve tried many combinations of our defenders and we haven’t had a consistent run of success with any of them. For me there are players that need to leave in January, if we can get them a move.

I would like to see a few young players around the squad, don’t loan them all out. The lad Goodman has good potential after he’s had a few games at Stamford, let’s see him coming off the bench in the first team.
How are getting players injured so often, and why aren’t the physio department getting fit quickly enough?.
Is not having a reserve side not helping this, is it worth the extra cost to maintain fitness levels of fringe players?.

In the window, I see us bringing four in with young players going out on loan, and a couple of our senior players leaving on permanent deals. A massive overhaul in January won’t happen. I do think we have been going backwards as a club on the football side for three to four seasons at least. It needs to be stopped, to do this we need continuity, good decisions and a bit of luck.