I hope the fans ambitions are one day matched by those at the club

[normal rules]

It seems with the loan signing of Todd Miller, Schofields ambition to sign quality players only seems to go as far as speaking to his very own agent.

[Chris Black come back]

May 2019 - scintillating football, modest budget, robbed at the death.

January 2023 - 9 points off automatic promotion in lowest professional tier, 4 clean sheets all season, best player signed by club below us.

You’ve spent the best part of two years slagging of our defence saying it’s up there with the worst ever and now you’re suggesting one of the main culprits is our best player

You’re getting a little confused. We have a terrible defensive unit, and Knoyle has been probably our best player this season. Those two facts can exist at the same time.

[i_ateallthepies]

There may be some Premier League clubs that can claim to be Sustainable but I don't know of any Lower League clubs that have taken this direction and achieved it.

Ambition and Investing (gambling) on success by spending is what many supporters want to see from the club but Combining Sustainability with 'Finding our level' is also a gamble because our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there.

Although the much lauded club statement of last week claims we are now a sustainable club, that isn't actually true since sustainability is only attained when the operating Level is maintained by the finances generated on an ongoing basis, and since Sustainability is largely dependent on gate receipts & advertising revenue (which will depend upon how much exposure can be delivered by our attendances) it cannot be assumed that we have reached sustainability.
 
Whilst we continue struggling to attract players and support staff who have ambition to better their careers our direction of travel towards sustainability appears destined to be downwards.

[steve@dcfd]

It could also be read as " I would have stayed if you payed me more" a final swipe at the club. Some players make their living by running contracts down.

In the statement from Copps he told them in December he wanted to go before any money terms were talked about.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It could also be read as " I would have stayed if you payed me more" a final swipe at the club. Some players make their living by running contracts down.

In the statement from Copps he told them in December he wanted to go before any money terms were talked about.

As said elsewhere, maybe he'd made his mind up long before December. His agent will no doubt have marketed his client and would have been aware of our wage structure therefore knowing even if we offered improved terms, he could trump that elsewhere.

The agents will know the honeypots and no doubt those agents will be touting their players to Gillingham amongst others right now for example.

[selby]

  Only in the conference years and before TV football on a big scale have I thought our support in the area  has matched the club we have.
   The modern fans look to me to be hangers on to nothing else but success self centred know little supporters.

[Chris Black come back]

Realistically we are not going to be making much headway in terms of reconfiguring the squad in January.

Loans, yes. Permanent signings, much less so. It is either free agents but the most attractive will have been signed already before the window, or players running down the contract and a club trying to monetise the last six months, such as when we signed Fejiri or obviously Knoyle. We don’t regularly pay a fee and trying to buy a player under decent contract in January is going to be especially difficult.

I don’t see much permanent business, but could be wrong.

[selby]

  CBcb, the last statement covers all bases, you can.t be wrong.

[Chris Black come back]

Maybe better as “happy to be proved wrong”.

[selby]

  Yep, I will go along with that, here's hoping.
   Honestly think that Tykes tip about Joe Ackroyd is one that got away, but might be re visited at the end of the season, he is a good player with a lot of potential.

[roversdude]

Still 17 days of the window left don’t panic

[Batleyred]

Realistically we are not going to be making much headway in terms of reconfiguring the squad in January.

Loans, yes. Permanent signings, much less so. It is either free agents but the most attractive will have been signed already before the window, or players running down the contract and a club trying to monetise the last six months, such as when we signed Fejiri or obviously Knoyle. We don’t regularly pay a fee and trying to buy a player under decent contract in January is going to be especially difficult.

I don’t see much permanent business, but could be wrong.

Agree with that and hope we do. Let's hope Coppinger is on that wave length. Its the sensible option and will be rewarded with more success than if we signed permanent now.

[sedwardsdrfc]

Every permanent signing we made last Jan doesn’t get a game for us now. While I wouldn’t say we shouldn’t sign anyone that way I’d say clamouring for it and criticising loans isn’t right.

We did the summer window better this season with fewer loans meaning we have the space to use them in Jan. Before we’ve had all 5 loan players in summer then having 2-3 more in Jan means we’ve loans that don’t get in a match day squad.

[Sammy Chung was King]

We missed a trick last window when Danny Johnson was available on loan, he went to Walsall and has scored twelve goals since then. He would have been a really good signing to go alongside George Miller.

[BigH]

There may be some Premier League clubs that can claim to be Sustainable but I don't know of any Lower League clubs that have taken this direction and achieved it.

Ambition and Investing (gambling) on success by spending is what many supporters want to see from the club but Combining Sustainability with 'Finding our level' is also a gamble because our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there.

Although the much lauded club statement of last week claims we are now a sustainable club, that isn't actually true since sustainability is only attained when the operating Level is maintained by the finances generated on an ongoing basis, and since Sustainability is largely dependent on gate receipts & advertising revenue (which will depend upon how much exposure can be delivered by our attendances) it cannot be assumed that we have reached sustainability.
 
Whilst we continue struggling to attract players and support staff who have ambition to better their careers our direction of travel towards sustainability appears destined to be downwards.

Have to agree. We are, in a way, living through the ‘experiment’ Mk II

[DonnyBazR0ver]

There may be some Premier League clubs that can claim to be Sustainable but I don't know of any Lower League clubs that have taken this direction and achieved it.

Ambition and Investing (gambling) on success by spending is what many supporters want to see from the club but Combining Sustainability with 'Finding our level' is also a gamble because our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there.

Although the much lauded club statement of last week claims we are now a sustainable club, that isn't actually true since sustainability is only attained when the operating Level is maintained by the finances generated on an ongoing basis, and since Sustainability is largely dependent on gate receipts & advertising revenue (which will depend upon how much exposure can be delivered by our attendances) it cannot be assumed that we have reached sustainability.
 
Whilst we continue struggling to attract players and support staff who have ambition to better their careers our direction of travel towards sustainability appears destined to be downwards.

"...our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there"

Really? I think there's many who would disagree with that.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I presume Knoyle equates the club showing ambition to the club giving him a lot more money for the service he provides.

[i_ateallthepies]

There may be some Premier League clubs that can claim to be Sustainable but I don't know of any Lower League clubs that have taken this direction and achieved it.

Ambition and Investing (gambling) on success by spending is what many supporters want to see from the club but Combining Sustainability with 'Finding our level' is also a gamble because our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there.

Although the much lauded club statement of last week claims we are now a sustainable club, that isn't actually true since sustainability is only attained when the operating Level is maintained by the finances generated on an ongoing basis, and since Sustainability is largely dependent on gate receipts & advertising revenue (which will depend upon how much exposure can be delivered by our attendances) it cannot be assumed that we have reached sustainability.
 
Whilst we continue struggling to attract players and support staff who have ambition to better their careers our direction of travel towards sustainability appears destined to be downwards.

"...our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there"

Really? I think there's many who would disagree with that.

So what is your view of 'our level', DBR?

[i_ateallthepies]

There may be some Premier League clubs that can claim to be Sustainable but I don't know of any Lower League clubs that have taken this direction and achieved it.

Ambition and Investing (gambling) on success by spending is what many supporters want to see from the club but Combining Sustainability with 'Finding our level' is also a gamble because our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there.

Although the much lauded club statement of last week claims we are now a sustainable club, that isn't actually true since sustainability is only attained when the operating Level is maintained by the finances generated on an ongoing basis, and since Sustainability is largely dependent on gate receipts & advertising revenue (which will depend upon how much exposure can be delivered by our attendances) it cannot be assumed that we have reached sustainability.
 
Whilst we continue struggling to attract players and support staff who have ambition to better their careers our direction of travel towards sustainability appears destined to be downwards.

Have to agree. We are, in a way, living through the ‘experiment’ Mk II

100% agree, BigH.

[lee.j09]

The sustainable model they’ve achieved is pretty impressive. There won’t be any other clubs outside the premiership that are.

But unfortunately I fear there’s a reason for this. It doesn’t belong in football. A football club can never be sustainable.

Lack of investment and the team not playing or performing well, means a down turn in paying customers. Add a relegation poor form in the cup to the mix also running out of saleable assets it really is a recipe for disaster. It ends up becoming a vicious circle of spiralling down the football pyramid.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

There may be some Premier League clubs that can claim to be Sustainable but I don't know of any Lower League clubs that have taken this direction and achieved it.

Ambition and Investing (gambling) on success by spending is what many supporters want to see from the club but Combining Sustainability with 'Finding our level' is also a gamble because our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there.

Although the much lauded club statement of last week claims we are now a sustainable club, that isn't actually true since sustainability is only attained when the operating Level is maintained by the finances generated on an ongoing basis, and since Sustainability is largely dependent on gate receipts & advertising revenue (which will depend upon how much exposure can be delivered by our attendances) it cannot be assumed that we have reached sustainability.
 
Whilst we continue struggling to attract players and support staff who have ambition to better their careers our direction of travel towards sustainability appears destined to be downwards.

"...our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there"

Really? I think there's many who would disagree with that.

So what is your view of 'our level', DBR?

That's not the question. You said our level has not been tested. Was it tested through the Championship seasons?

[Barmby Rover]

The sustainable model they’ve achieved is pretty impressive. There won’t be any other clubs outside the premiership that are.

But unfortunately I fear there’s a reason for this. It doesn’t belong in football. A football club can never be sustainable.

Lack of investment and the team not playing or performing well, means a down turn in paying customers. Add a relegation poor form in the cup to the mix also running out of saleable assets it really is a recipe for disaster. It ends up becoming a vicious circle of spiralling down the football pyramid.

I think it is called "managed decline", slowly but surely diminishing fans expectations so that as they reach the bottom of the barrel it just fizzles out.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

The sustainable model they’ve achieved is pretty impressive. There won’t be any other clubs outside the premiership that are.

But unfortunately I fear there’s a reason for this. It doesn’t belong in football. A football club can never be sustainable.

Lack of investment and the team not playing or performing well, means a down turn in paying customers. Add a relegation poor form in the cup to the mix also running out of saleable assets it really is a recipe for disaster. It ends up becoming a vicious circle of spiralling down the football pyramid.

Sorry, but on that explanation, I don't think you have a clear understanding of what sustainable means. It's about what or whom makes each club's business models sustainable and what would be the tipping point that would turn the model to unsustainable.

Much of what you refer to isn't about sustainability, it's about performance. Getting value for money out of what you pay for. In our case, for a number of reasons, we have underperformed recently.

[i_ateallthepies]

There may be some Premier League clubs that can claim to be Sustainable but I don't know of any Lower League clubs that have taken this direction and achieved it.

Ambition and Investing (gambling) on success by spending is what many supporters want to see from the club but Combining Sustainability with 'Finding our level' is also a gamble because our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there.

Although the much lauded club statement of last week claims we are now a sustainable club, that isn't actually true since sustainability is only attained when the operating Level is maintained by the finances generated on an ongoing basis, and since Sustainability is largely dependent on gate receipts & advertising revenue (which will depend upon how much exposure can be delivered by our attendances) it cannot be assumed that we have reached sustainability.
 
Whilst we continue struggling to attract players and support staff who have ambition to better their careers our direction of travel towards sustainability appears destined to be downwards.

"...our 'Level' hasn't ever been tested and can't be known until we get there"

Really? I think there's many who would disagree with that.

So what is your view of 'our level', DBR?

That's not the question. You said our level has not been tested. Was it tested through the Championship seasons?

Of course it wasn't.  There were three multi-millionaires pumping money into the club to get and try to keep us there.  So, DBR, bearing in mind that sustainability in the context of this conversation involves the club operating without financial support from its owner, do you believe its sustainability has been tested?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Of course it's been tested!! Plus, we do have financial support and that's what makes it sustainable.

So, we had 3 benefactors. (Well the number is slightly irrelevant to this) What factors then made it unsustainable? 

[i_ateallthepies]

I answered that in my post 53.  So, you believe the club can be considered sustainable whilst its owners have to subsidise the club to cover the annual losses?  I think there's many who would disagree with you.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I answered that in my post 53.  So, you believe the club can be considered sustainable whilst its owners have to subsidise the club to cover the annual losses?  I think there's many who would disagree with you.

During those seasons, did we have a waiting list for season tickets?

Why, even at that level, were attendances dropping?

Why did it become unsustainable for JR. I don't recall JR putting a time limit on his contribution. (Don't infer that as a dig a JR)

I go back to his statement back yonder when he took over "I believe the town of Doncaster can support a Championship club) Revisiting that, all these years on, was he right? (I believed that back then)

As I've said before, what was achieved under JRs leadership and financial support from those inc Wetzel, Beresford, then TB and DW was exceptional. It wasn't the norm.

How did the TB and DW recognise the tipping point between sustainable and unsustainable and have to cut our cloth accordingly? Being sustainable gives us the opportunity to grow (or shrink) organically without artificially propping up the club financially and taking huge risks.

We are fortunate to have owners who provide us with that insurance policy. Being better at how we operate the model is another question.   

[ForsolongaRover]

JR’s ambition for the club is surely what took us the championship. He made great play of it, advertised it at every opportunity and was seen as arrogant by other clubs, but there was a constant emphasis in everything he said that this was where he wanted to be. That was his Mission Statement.

For clubs like Wednesday, Ipswich, Portsmouth, and Sunderland, they make it very clear where they want to be. As a result it is that objective that people associate them with.

They are not just saying that we want to get to the play-offs, they have a headline ambition beyond that, a burning desire to get there.

So this eliminates fans moaning about what their Board wants for them. Any player thinking of joining the club knows what they are after too.

I would suggest that unless there is some statement of what a club is aiming for beyond simply getting into the League above, it’s fans and those players considering a career move, will probably conclude that the club is not too unhappy about where they are at the moment.

Baldwin only solid statement of the club’s ambitions was “A return to League One remains a priority and, while there will inevitably be ups and downs along the way, we believe we are giving ourselves the best chance of achieving our goals.”

I do feel that by qualifying the return to League 1 by “ups and downs” he is implying that even that is not necessarily something that is expected this season when really it should be. Even if it were achieved we were once in the 2nd automatic promotion position in League 1 in the season before last, so why are we not aiming for that again rather than merely occupying a place in League 1 in the shape of “a return to League1”. 

So “Self-sustaining” is not the right message because putting this at the very heart of your business model will create the impression of an aversion to even a small degree of risk-taking. And to go further, you have implant a much more progressive objective in the vision of players and prospective players and fans. Self-sustenance is a fine economic principle, but as others have said, it couples with conservatism which in today’s football world and possibly in any business anywhere, it leads to decline.

Obviously I have not analysed every interview given by those within the club, but the immediate desire to be promoted and go on from there is not all that prominent in what they say. If Schofield has mentioned it, I must have missed it.

 

[pib]

The last point is the key one Baz.

Sustainable or not, the question remains why, when we have somewhere around the 5th best gates in L2 (and better than many in L1), and are the self-professed best club in the lower leagues at generating income from other sources, are we struggling to get in the play-off mix in League Two?

That points to serious failings in how those resources are managed and deployed, which many of us have been raising as a concern for a number of years. This shows very little sign of improving at the moment, in spite of the “re-structuring” that has taken place. Whether it will prove to be a mistake appointing from within and from a small pool of “known” contacts for this restructure will come out in the wash in the coming months and years.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

The last point is the key one Baz.

Sustainable or not, the question remains why, when we have somewhere around the 5th best gates in L2 (and better than many in L1), and are the self-professed best club in the lower leagues at generating income from other sources, are we struggling to get in the play-off mix in League Two?

That points to serious failings in how those resources are managed and deployed, which many of us have been raising as a concern for a number of years. This shows very little sign of improving at the moment, in spite of the “re-structuring” that has taken place. Whether it will prove to be a mistake appointing from within and from a small pool of “known” contacts for this restructure will come out in the wash in the coming months and years.

I wouldn't disagree with alot of what you've said but is that cause to destroy what we have in the hope it could be replaced by something better?

The restructuring hasn't had time to show whether it's going to be more successful. Going down the HoF route is a big shift from where we were, which the vast majority agreed, too much was depending one the manager who determined the transfer policy and us having to chop and change with every manager that came in. That's where alot of our wastage has been accounted for.

The jury is still out so it's not appropriate to be campaigning for a death sentence just yet.