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Martin, I may have missed it, but was the amount of STs sold this season ever made aware to us? If not, is it a policy of the club not to disclose those details?
Quote from: scawsby steve on March 24, 2023, 06:26:30 pmMartin, I may have missed it, but was the amount of STs sold this season ever made aware to us? If not, is it a policy of the club not to disclose those details?It’s been stated somewhere. Didn’t it get addressed at the MTO? I’ll check, but if memory serves me right we were only about a dozen or so short of last season.Most decisions about keeping thing’s financial quiet is nothing to do with supporters, it’s more to stop the competition finding out.
Quote from: ForsolongaRover on March 24, 2023, 05:52:51 pmIn the face of denial from the Board of there being a problem, the question of how our collective alarm might best be made clear to those in charge has been discussed.I cannot claim to have read every word written on the subject and this suggestion may have been already made, but surely the DFP and the Yorkshire Post would want to give publicity to this. It is a major crisis amongst the loyal fan base. When clubs hit crises this sort of thing is front-page news in the local press. In these circumstances you would not expect Steve Jones or Leon Wobschall to author such a piece, so ideally it would need to be written by a long-time season ticket holder who also follows them away from home. Having admired the writing of numerous contributors to this forum I have no doubt that a powerful article could be composed. Presenting this to the Editor needs to be carefully thought through, but I would be surprised if he/she were not interested.With its recent elevation to city status this has a civic pride angle. It is ironic that its very recently-appointed Freeman seems to be blind to the wider damage to Doncaster's image.There is no denial from the board, they are fully aware.
In the face of denial from the Board of there being a problem, the question of how our collective alarm might best be made clear to those in charge has been discussed.I cannot claim to have read every word written on the subject and this suggestion may have been already made, but surely the DFP and the Yorkshire Post would want to give publicity to this. It is a major crisis amongst the loyal fan base. When clubs hit crises this sort of thing is front-page news in the local press. In these circumstances you would not expect Steve Jones or Leon Wobschall to author such a piece, so ideally it would need to be written by a long-time season ticket holder who also follows them away from home. Having admired the writing of numerous contributors to this forum I have no doubt that a powerful article could be composed. Presenting this to the Editor needs to be carefully thought through, but I would be surprised if he/she were not interested.With its recent elevation to city status this has a civic pride angle. It is ironic that its very recently-appointed Freeman seems to be blind to the wider damage to Doncaster's image.
I started reading this post thinking it was about the club, but it's not, its more about me and the VSC than a genuine attempt to discover the goings on in the club. When questions are asked in a respectful manner I usually try and answer them, however most of the questions from certain posters are there to poke me with a stick rather that elicit an answer, for that reason I choose to ignore certain ones. I'm not refusing to answer, I'm choosing to ignore them, there's a difference.I'll try and keep my responses short here, but I guarantee that some of what you're asking will need a lot of explanation. Firstly, let me clear about who and what I represent as I'm always being told by certain posters that I don't represent them, fair enough, but don't get annoyed when I then choose to ignore your question, you can't have it both ways. I'm a board member of the VSC and also it's secretary. There are other board members too, I'm not alone.I'm not on the Shadow Board, I resigned from there some months ago after a dispute with the club and the Chair. I'm not going into details and I've never mentioned it on here but the news was posted in the VSC members section some time ago, and was also part of my plan to try and retire from football related organisations as best as I can. The VSC by the way is a supporters trust that was set up to ensure that we can ask the tough questions to make sure that we don't suffer the fate that we did under the Richardson years and also be a legitimate body that can step in as owners if that was ever required. As you know many clubs are in supporter ownership, either partly or fully, and we would be ready to step up if this was the case. Meanwhile we'll support ownership that we believe is ensuring the club doesn't go out of business. We were John Ryans biggest supporters and the relationship was very strong between both parties. Andy Liney saw through the Keepmoat project and was also a supporter director of DRFC, raising funds as best we could and handing that over to JR when asked. We stopped supporting JR when his activities threatened the clubs future. By the same token we've supported TB and DW when they steered the club in the right direction.As part of that process we see that the club is functioning financially and that there are no threats around the corner which causes us major issues. The playing budget is not part of that process. However we do ask that question as committed DRFC supporters. Its not something that I like to expand on, however its important to note that the difference between LG2 and LG1 is quite massive when it comes to solidarity payments and our share of TV revenue. For that reason its easier to balance the books in LG1 than it is in LG2. As we suffer a reduction in revenue that's always reflected then in the playing budget. Our current budget would see us in the top 10 in this division. I wouldn't know the exact position, but knowing what I do I would say the disparity isn't that great across most of the middle section of the league. In other words a lot of clubs would have similar budgets.Now, are the owners aware of the current situation and do they care? I can guarantee that GB and TB are more than aware of the difficult situation that our on field performances are causing amongst the supporters and how desperate they are to see the club functioning properly again. Do I think that they are taking this seriously and will implement a solution to the current malaise? Yes I do. We may have to wait until next season thou as these things take time, after all we're too close to the end of this season for major changes to impact on the club.Is the club up for sale? Of course it is. I don't know how many times I have to type this out on here but I'll do it again. TB has always said that he'll step aside if somebody comes along who has the best intentions of the club at heart. He'll accept the substantial loss that is a forgone conclusion as the club would never sell at a level that would see any return on that money. Football clubs don't operate through estate agents though, most of it is done through the EFL anyway as they are the party that gives the green light when due diligence is done. So for those who keep demanding that TB sells up you'll get your way at some point, but it will be to the right party, one that we would want as owners.I meant to keep this short and sweet, and some of the detail has been left out. But, here's an offer I have made before, if Tommy C or anyone else for that matter doesn't like my answers, then PM me and I'll fix up a meeting with Gavin and you can ask the questions directly of him. I've done it for other people on this forum before and I'd be happy to set this up.
Quote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.
Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?
Quote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.
Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?
Quote from: silent majority on March 24, 2023, 05:58:00 pmQuote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.I remember us all being given similar assurances to this at the back end of the 2020/2021 season during the midst of the disastrous Butler half-season.The reason (or excuse) given at the time was that we had a team full of players who weren’t committed to the club and that would be decisively rectified in the summer.We then went on to have the worst summer of player recruitment at the club in over two decades, failed to compete in about two-thirds of our matches during the following season, and finished up relegated, in the process appointing a rookie manager who at no point looked qualified for the job in anyone’s eyes except those that appointed him.I think people can be forgiven for being a bit sceptical that those running the club have the knowledge and will to ensure this isn’t just another empty statement. Many people have now run out of patience with this cycle of ever-declining performance, and the spin that is put out to try and reassure or keep the fans onside.
Quote from: silent majority on March 24, 2023, 05:58:00 pmQuote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt."We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough. So...“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone. Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then.
Quote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.
Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?
"If only we had someone on the board who could ask the difficult questions. Silent Majority assures us that he does indeed ask those questions and he does hold the board's "feet to the fire". Lovely to hear. Unfortunately however, he never shares answers to the difficult to questions, or at least not ones that may show the board in a negative light. The concept of the VSC was established to prevent the club ever finding itself in the position it was in back in the late 90s and to provide a level of transparency and reassurance that had been sadly lacking in the past. I don't believe that it is working in that way at present."I quite agree, there is absolutely nobody willing to call the people out who are the cause of all this, and that is why this decline will not stop until the football club becomes insignificant, with little support, and the stadium is given up to Rugby Union.
Quote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 10:54:54 pmQuote from: silent majority on March 24, 2023, 05:58:00 pmQuote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt."We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough. So...“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone. Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then. I think you’ve misread what I wrote, which makes your conclusions wrong. I said we were sustainable in lg1, not that we were self sustainable, and I also explained the difference.
Quote from: silent majority on March 24, 2023, 05:58:00 pmQuote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt."We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough. So...“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone. Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then.
Quote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.
Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?
As a rough guide, if we were back in League One and we decided we didn’t want the owner subsidy and became ‘self sustainable’ would we broadly have a budget that should keep us up all things being equal but not much more than that, if we didn’t take on debt to fill the spending gap? I think that’s probably the more realistic measure as we can’t and shouldn’t expect Terry to be around forever subsidising us.
Thank you. That’s a useful rule of thumb.
Quote from: silent majority on March 25, 2023, 11:19:56 amQuote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 10:54:54 pmQuote from: silent majority on March 24, 2023, 05:58:00 pmQuote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt."We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough. So...“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone. Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then. I think you’ve misread what I wrote, which makes your conclusions wrong. I said we were sustainable in lg1, not that we were self sustainable, and I also explained the difference.Is the difference that at the target level of expenditure (‘competitive’ / top half budget) in League One, we still rely on some degree of owner subsidy (absent a player sale windfall for instance)?
Quote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 10:54:54 pmQuote from: silent majority on March 24, 2023, 05:58:00 pmQuote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt."We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough. So...“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone. Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then. I think you’ve misread what I wrote, which makes your conclusions wrong. I said we were sustainable in lg1, not that we were self sustainable, and I also explained the difference.
Quote from: silent majority on March 24, 2023, 05:58:00 pmQuote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt."We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough. So...“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone. Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then.
Quote from: TommyC on March 24, 2023, 05:31:42 pmHaving considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined. It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.
Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?
SM has said in the past TB will provide funds when necessary