The Bigger Picture

[silent majority]

Martin, I may have missed it, but was the amount of STs sold this season ever made aware to us? If not, is it a policy of the club not to disclose those details?

It’s been stated somewhere. Didn’t it get addressed at the MTO? I’ll check, but if memory serves me right we were only about a dozen or so short of last season.

Most decisions about keeping thing’s financial quiet is nothing to do with supporters, it’s more to stop the competition finding out.

[Campsall rover]

Martin, I may have missed it, but was the amount of STs sold this season ever made aware to us? If not, is it a policy of the club not to disclose those details?

It’s been stated somewhere. Didn’t it get addressed at the MTO? I’ll check, but if memory serves me right we were only about a dozen or so short of last season.

Most decisions about keeping thing’s financial quiet is nothing to do with supporters, it’s more to stop the competition finding out.

SM i really don’t see why they would keep season ticket sales a secret.  The other clubs would not be at an advantage having that information.
Budgets would be in the known to the EFL surely as only a certain percentage of the club turnover is supposed to be used on the playing budget. Is it 80% SM I am not sure?
I am quite sure every club Chairman or CEO would be able to get that information if they wanted it.

We need far more transparency SM imo on some of the financial aspects of our club.
Season ticket sales and playing budgets should be two of those that are in the public domain.
This is not the secret service it is a professional Football Club.

[ForsolongaRover]

In the face of denial from the Board of there being a problem, the question of how our collective alarm might best be made clear to those in charge has been discussed.

I cannot claim to have read every word written on the subject and this suggestion may have been already made, but surely the DFP and the Yorkshire Post would want to give publicity to this. It is a major crisis amongst the loyal fan base. When clubs hit crises this sort of thing is front-page news in the local press.

In these circumstances you would not expect Steve Jones or Leon Wobschall to author such a piece, so ideally it would need to be written by a long-time season ticket holder who also follows them away from home. Having admired the writing of numerous contributors to this forum I have no doubt that a powerful article could be composed. Presenting this to the Editor needs to be carefully thought through, but I would be surprised if he/she were not interested.

With its recent elevation to city status this has a civic pride angle. It is ironic that its very recently-appointed Freeman seems to be blind to the wider damage to Doncaster's image.

There is no denial from the board, they are fully aware.

It is the Board’s effective denial of there being a problem that I am referring to. It cannot be denied that the fans have the most enormous problem in maintaining their support.

[ravenrover]

Look back through this thread and I think you will find an answer, there is no denial and alternatives to the current situation are being looked at, maybe in the Summer, maybe later

[sedwardsdrfc]

Barring splashing a few million in the summer the best way they can effect the team is by having the right manager for the job. Not sure what other alternatives they can look at?

So just do it now so we can look forward to games somewhat. Why wait for summer or later.

[StocksArmy]

I started reading this post thinking it was about the club, but it's not, its more about me and the VSC than a genuine attempt to discover the goings on in the club. When questions are asked in a respectful manner I usually try and answer them, however most of the questions from certain posters are there to poke me with a stick rather that elicit an answer, for that reason I choose to ignore certain ones. I'm not refusing to answer, I'm choosing to ignore them, there's a difference.

I'll try and keep my responses short here, but I guarantee that some of what you're asking will need a lot of explanation. Firstly, let me clear about who and what I represent as I'm always being told by certain posters that I don't represent them, fair enough, but don't get annoyed when I then choose to ignore your question, you can't have it both ways. I'm a board member of the VSC and also it's secretary. There are other board members too, I'm not alone.

I'm not on the Shadow Board, I resigned from there some months ago after a dispute with the club and the Chair. I'm not going into details and I've never mentioned it on here but the news was posted in the VSC members section some time ago, and was also part of my plan to try and retire from football related organisations as best as I can.

The VSC by the way is a supporters trust that was set up to ensure that we can ask the tough questions to make sure that we don't suffer the fate that we did under the Richardson years and also be a legitimate body that can step in as owners if that was ever required. As you know many clubs are in supporter ownership, either partly or fully, and we would be ready to step up if this was the case. Meanwhile we'll support ownership that we believe is ensuring the club doesn't go out of business. We were John Ryans biggest supporters and the relationship was very strong between both parties. Andy Liney saw through the Keepmoat project and was also a supporter director of DRFC, raising funds as best we could and handing that over to JR when asked. We stopped supporting JR when his activities threatened the clubs future. By the same token we've supported TB and DW when they steered the club in the right direction.

As part of that process we see that the club is functioning financially and that there are no threats around the corner which causes us major issues. The playing budget is not part of that process. However we do ask that question as committed DRFC supporters. Its not something that I like to expand on, however its important to note that the difference between LG2 and LG1 is quite massive when it comes to solidarity payments and our share of TV revenue. For that reason its easier to balance the books in LG1 than it is in LG2. As we suffer a reduction in revenue that's always reflected then in the playing budget. Our current budget would see us in the top 10 in this division. I wouldn't know the exact position, but knowing what I do I would say the disparity isn't that great across most of the middle section of the league. In other words a lot of clubs would have similar budgets.

Now, are the owners aware of the current situation and do they care? I can guarantee that GB and TB are more than aware of the difficult situation that our on field performances are causing amongst the supporters and how desperate they are to see the club functioning properly again. Do I think that they are taking this seriously and will implement a solution to the current malaise? Yes I do. We may have to wait until next season thou as these things take time, after all we're too close to the end of this season for major changes to impact on the club.

Is the club up for sale? Of course it is. I don't know how many times I have to type this out on here but I'll do it again. TB has always said that he'll step aside if somebody comes along who has the best intentions of the club at heart. He'll accept the substantial loss that is a forgone conclusion as the club would never sell at a level that would see any return on that money. Football clubs don't operate through estate agents though, most of it is done through the EFL anyway as they are the party that gives the green light when due diligence is done. So for those who keep demanding that TB sells up you'll get your way at some point, but it will be to the right party, one that we would want as owners.

I meant to keep this short and sweet, and some of the detail has been left out. But, here's an offer I have made before, if Tommy C or anyone else for that matter doesn't like my answers, then PM me and I'll fix up a meeting with Gavin and you can ask the questions directly of him. I've done it for other people on this forum before and I'd be happy to set this up.

I think its admired deep down by most that anybody with the good of the club at heart is respected so whether you ignore them or not is totally disrespectful, they just dont trust the club anymore and its not personal towards you. You are the one who everybody knows the goings on within the club and many times you have used that almost as a "you dont know what you are talking about" jibe at people when you could simply offer reassurance that does not give anything away in which the club are planning to do. Many of us clearly think that you not only sit on the fence but your are stiched to it! Why has it taken until now for you to release something "short and sweet" which should have been done at the earliest of the Hartlepool game. It shouldnt take the shit to properly hit the fan for you to post something that will maybe make us want to buy a ticket for next season but only now you have decided either off of your own back or the club have allowed you to give a bit of information. This is peoples hard earned cash they are firing towards this club week in week out, out of pure loyalty and love of the place they grew up and we get players nobody else wants! I would understand no statement from the club in a 15, 20 game period but we are now heading towards 3 seasons so forgive us for having no faith and taking aim at people ITK. We are not stupid and we know something isnt right so be honest with us.

[silent majority]

I have no idea what any of that ramble means.

But I’ve been posting that stuff for months, and some of it for years, so I fail to see how it’s news to some of you.

[normal rules]

Martin, can you explain the ownership of the club; between Brammall, Baldwin and Blunt. its been described previously as "complicated ".

[StocksArmy]

But you have no idea what it means. Ok.

[TommyC]

Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?

Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.

Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)

Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.

This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined.

It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.

"We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."

Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough.

So...

“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."

So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.

Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone.

Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then.


 

[ncRover]

Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?

Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.

Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)

Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.

This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined.

It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.

It all depends on what Schofield and Coppinger think is needed in the summer.

I know there is interest in Lakin, which I can get behind.

But for the rest, it’s just like for like looking for better versions of the current players for the same system it isn’t going to work in this league. Especially with an average budget for the league.

[pib]

Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?

Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.

Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)

Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.

This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined.

It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.

I remember us all being given similar assurances to this at the back end of the 2020/2021 season during the midst of the disastrous Butler half-season.

The reason (or excuse) given at the time was that we had a team full of players who weren’t committed to the club and that would be decisively rectified in the summer.

We then went on to have the worst summer of player recruitment at the club in over two decades, failed to compete in about two-thirds of our matches during the following season, and finished up relegated, in the process appointing a rookie manager who at no point looked qualified for the job in anyone’s eyes except those that appointed him.

I think people can be forgiven for being a bit sceptical that those running the club have the knowledge and will to ensure this isn’t just another empty statement. Many people have now run out of patience with this cycle of ever-declining performance, and the spin that is put out to try and reassure or keep the fans onside.

[Padge_DRFC]

I'm sure I read somewhere regarding the league 1 league 2 revenue that currently we had a top 10 budget in league 2. If we went up we'd have a top 6 budget in league 1. How does that work when everyone else gets the league 1 revenues too plus the way bigger clubs than us?

I'm concerned we're going to be playing in front of 4000 next year based on ST renewals. They're the cheapest probably in the football league.

We missed a trick in the championship charging 28 quid for cat a games instead of filling the ground and getting supporters for life in.

[sedwardsdrfc]

We’ve gone from a sustainable top 10 L1 budget to top 10 L2.

From that I’d say we never had a top 10 L1 budget. Don’t see how it’s possible to then drop to only top 10 in L2 if we generate so much from non footballing activity.

With our attendances and then the extra commercial revenues generated we should be in the top 4 shouldn’t we!? Lot of waste going on if not

[ncRover]

Northampton, Stevenage and Carlisle will have lower budgets than us.

The staff can’t help the budget right now but can help the quality of the recruitment and the appropriateness of the playing style.

[Chris Black come back]

Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?

Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.

Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)

Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.

This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined.

It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.

I remember us all being given similar assurances to this at the back end of the 2020/2021 season during the midst of the disastrous Butler half-season.

The reason (or excuse) given at the time was that we had a team full of players who weren’t committed to the club and that would be decisively rectified in the summer.

We then went on to have the worst summer of player recruitment at the club in over two decades, failed to compete in about two-thirds of our matches during the following season, and finished up relegated, in the process appointing a rookie manager who at no point looked qualified for the job in anyone’s eyes except those that appointed him.

I think people can be forgiven for being a bit sceptical that those running the club have the knowledge and will to ensure this isn’t just another empty statement. Many people have now run out of patience with this cycle of ever-declining performance, and the spin that is put out to try and reassure or keep the fans onside.

Is Lee Carsley making a return? Actually, did he ever leave?

[Barmby Rover]

"If only we had someone on the board who could ask the difficult questions. Silent Majority assures us that he does indeed ask those questions and he does hold the board's "feet to the fire". Lovely to hear.  Unfortunately however,  he never shares answers to the difficult to questions, or at least not ones that may show the board in a negative light. The concept of the VSC was established to prevent the club ever finding itself in the position it was in back in the late 90s and to provide a level of transparency and reassurance that had been sadly lacking in the past. I don't believe that it is working in that way at present."

I quite agree, there is absolutely nobody willing to call the people out who are the cause of all this, and that is why this decline will not stop until the football club becomes insignificant, with little support, and the stadium is given up to Rugby Union.

[silent majority]

Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?

Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.

Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)

Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.

This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined.

It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.

"We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."

Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough.

So...

“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."

So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.

Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone.

Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then.


 

I think you’ve misread what I wrote, which makes your conclusions wrong. I said we were sustainable in lg1, not that we were self sustainable, and I also explained the difference.

[silent majority]

"If only we had someone on the board who could ask the difficult questions. Silent Majority assures us that he does indeed ask those questions and he does hold the board's "feet to the fire". Lovely to hear.  Unfortunately however,  he never shares answers to the difficult to questions, or at least not ones that may show the board in a negative light. The concept of the VSC was established to prevent the club ever finding itself in the position it was in back in the late 90s and to provide a level of transparency and reassurance that had been sadly lacking in the past. I don't believe that it is working in that way at present."

I quite agree, there is absolutely nobody willing to call the people out who are the cause of all this, and that is why this decline will not stop until the football club becomes insignificant, with little support, and the stadium is given up to Rugby Union.

Barmby, that’s just a nonsense.

By any stretch of the imagination that would not be a step anybody is either planning or would accept, including the owners.

The VSC if necessary, would also step in long before we got to that stage.

[Chris Black come back]

Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?

Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.

Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)

Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.

This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined.

It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.

"We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."

Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough.

So...

“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."

So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.

Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone.

Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then.


 

I think you’ve misread what I wrote, which makes your conclusions wrong. I said we were sustainable in lg1, not that we were self sustainable, and I also explained the difference.

Is the difference that at the target level of expenditure (‘competitive’ / top half budget) in League One, we still rely on some degree of owner subsidy (absent a player sale windfall for instance)?

[silent majority]

Yes, as I explained in my post, we operate without debt or loans of any kind. Therefore we are sustainable.

[Chris Black come back]

As a rough guide, if we were back in League One and we decided we didn’t want the owner subsidy and became ‘self sustainable’ would we broadly have a budget that should keep us up all things being equal but not much more than that, if we didn’t take on debt to fill the spending gap?

I think that’s probably the more realistic measure as we can’t and shouldn’t expect Terry to be around forever subsidising us.

[silent majority]

As a rough guide, if we were back in League One and we decided we didn’t want the owner subsidy and became ‘self sustainable’ would we broadly have a budget that should keep us up all things being equal but not much more than that, if we didn’t take on debt to fill the spending gap?

I think that’s probably the more realistic measure as we can’t and shouldn’t expect Terry to be around forever subsidising us.

Yes, the increase in solidarity and TV payments makes it much easier to do.

[Chris Black come back]

Thank you. That’s a useful rule of thumb.

[silent majority]

Thank you. That’s a useful rule of thumb.

I should add that the budget should be more than able to keep us up, we would definitely be top half.

As I've said many a time on this forum our income structure is a lot more balanced and varied than most  EFL clubs. In that respect we have a structure more like an EPL club as the incomes from non-ticket activity is very strong. It was one of the main reasons we could cut the price of season tickets recently.

[Canadian Rover]

SM; Am I right to think that Baldwin and Blunt together are majority owners of the club? How much did they purchase the shares for and what is the net worth of those two individuals?

Mr Bramall we all know is a very wealthy man, but isn't getting any younger. What will happen in the future with regards to his ownership?

I can see the idea of a break even or profitable club but without a truly workable youth progression policy and teams it's going to fail plain and simple (and is failing) dropped revenues from terrible catering to an horrendous product on the pitch are going to lead us  towards non league and lower revenues (this will happen with the current coaching managerial set up).

I do love Doncaster Rovers but fear for our future under this ownership; many laughed at Ryan and Louis Tomlinson crowd funding bid but with what we have now we are also only going in one direction ⬇️

[NickDRFC]

Having considered this a bit more, the comments on the drop in revenues from League 1 to League 2 are I am sure valid and welcome insights. However, the board used to inject a couple of million into the playing budget each year beyond our "sustainable club" budget as they aspired to Championship football. They stated they didnt want to stay in League 1 and they wanted more. The aim was to get to the Championship and stay there and they invested at a level to achieve that. They no longer invest at that level. All of that is fact based on statements made by representatives of the club. Surely the reason behind that change could be explained to the fans? Why have the board effectively pulled their investment? Do I really need to make an appointment to speak to Gavin to ask him about it? What level of football do they aspire to and what are they prepared to bankroll? What are they actually in this for?

Firstly, the monies injected into the club were at a time when we were not self sustainable. We were sustainable at a point that we wanted to be, i.e. we were not going into debt or borrowing money of any kind, but the commercial income was growing. As the commercial income from Club Doncaster grew the owners railed back on their support. However that, whilst in LG1, was enough for us to maintain a budget that enabled us to be in a play-off position. We could never afford to be in the top 2 or 3 in that league but any decent manager should have kept us there or thereabouts.

Secondly, the owners were happy to subsidise the club but the long term goal was always to be self-sustainable so that the club would be a viable operation if the worst ever happened to TB or even to make it attractive as a going concern for others. (nobody really wants to buy a club that's in debt or needs a couple of million throwing at it every year)

Thirdly, they would like the club to be operating at a level that can be achieved using the financial model they have. So, when in LG1 it was considered that the budget was enough to get us in the play-offs. That would then enable us to have a pitch at the Championship. Nobody at the club expected us to be relegated last season, the budget was more than enough to keep us up.

This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue. What they are we'll have to wait and see as I don't have that detail, only that there are options which are being examined.

It'll be a big summer for us no doubt.

"We, as a club at the moment, could probably operate without the backing of the owners in League One because of the revenues we’ve got."

Okay. So 5 years ago we were self sustaining. According to you, that was only the case however because we were in League 1 and that's no longer applicable in League 2 where revenues are lower. Okay. Fair enough.

So...

“And they choose to put well into seven figures into the club but that purely goes into the playing budget because they want a Championship club."

So back then they put 7 figures into the club each year on top of us being largely self sustaining in League 1.

Okay. So now we're down in League 2. We've lost revenue as you say. Im sure that's true. But we're told only a few weeks ago that the club is totally self sustaining without the need for a single penny of investment from anyone.

Self sustaining at league 1. Apparently self sustaining at league 2. The only difference is the 7 figure sum they were putting in on top back then.


 

I think you’ve misread what I wrote, which makes your conclusions wrong. I said we were sustainable in lg1, not that we were self sustainable, and I also explained the difference.

Is the difference that at the target level of expenditure (‘competitive’ / top half budget) in League One, we still rely on some degree of owner subsidy (absent a player sale windfall for instance)?

SM, apologies if I’m misinterpreting this and please correct me if so, but does that mean that Bramall is willing to put money in if we’re in League One, but not in League Two?

[ravenrover]

SM has said in the past TB will provide funds when necessary

[i_ateallthepies]

SM, thanks for the detailed explanation it is appreciated.  I just want to better understand the following comment in you reply:  This season of course we have a problem that everybody can see, it doesn't need any explanation from me. And as I've mentioned above things will change to ensure that this doesn't continue.

Yes everyone can of course see there is one or more problems but from this thread alone you can see there are many differfent opinions about what the problems actually are. 

Therefore, based on the evidence of last two years decision-making at the club what have you seen of late to feel confident that the same people are now equipped with the expertise to identify and remedy the problems that have brought us to this dire situation?

[silent majority]

SM has said in the past TB will provide funds when necessary

That’s right, there is no hard and fast rule depending on which league we’re in.

TB as far as I’m aware is providing funds currently to help with cash flows as the changing energy scene is creating havoc with that. The club received a demand quite recently for an immediate payment somewhere in the region of £325,000, needless to say it was challenged.