Labour U Turns Part 164

[albie]

Poor owd puffing Billy is still having trouble understanding neoliberalism, despite it being explained before, and a cornerstone of his politics.
Dead against the Tufton St mafia, but less so against the political front men they run on behalf of capital interests.

Easy enough to look it up of course, but to save him the time here is a primer from George Monbiot;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/06/rishi-sunak-javier-milei-donald-trump-atlas-network

All the mainline choices on offer are beholden to financial backers, this dark money network of influence has tentacles across the party lines.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Phew, Albie. Thanks for that. I really didn't understand it before.

Hey! You never know. You might get a student common room lefty and Putin apologise leading the Labour party again sometime! Then you can be really, really happy when he comes second. Again.

[ncRover]

Phew, Albie. Thanks for that. I really didn't understand it before.

Hey! You never know. You might get a student common room lefty and Putin apologise leading the Labour party again sometime! Then you can be really, really happy when he comes second. Again.

Come on Billy. When he’d come second it would only be because people have been brainwashed by Murdoch and the Daily Mail. People just don’t know what’s good for them!

[albie]

OK Billy.

So you understand the role of Labour in this charade, and the channel for influence that Labour offers to dark money opportunists?

Why do you reckon Starmer and Co regularly make policy changes seemingly on a whim, without any regard to the consequences of those changes t those affected?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

Here's the difference between you and Corbyn, & me and Starmer.

The importance you place on getting elected, as opposed to staying ideologically pure.

It always was the way with the Left. Impressing other people on the Left by never, ever compromising was always more important than actually taking power.

Always.

[scawsby steve]

Albie.

Here's the difference between you and Corbyn, & me and Starmer.

The importance you place on getting elected, as opposed to staying ideologically pure.

It always was the way with the Left. Impressing other people on the Left by never, ever compromising was always more important than actually taking power.

Always.

So when Keith gets elected, what then? Seriously, what's he going to do to make life better for you, me, and everyone else?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Albie.

Here's the difference between you and Corbyn, & me and Starmer.

The importance you place on getting elected, as opposed to staying ideologically pure.

It always was the way with the Left. Impressing other people on the Left by never, ever compromising was always more important than actually taking power.

Always.

The problem with Labour under Corbyn was the amount of Starmer type Blairites who were determined to sabotage the election. This is well evidenced. Those people are tied into neolibralist ways and influenced from neolibralists who were scared to death about losing their influence, power and money. And then there was the Israeli Zionist lobby. All very effective due to the complicity of Labour Party staff, and of the neolib and Zionist press. You know this yet never acknowledge it. Why?

So as said above, the Labour government will strive to act for those causes. They will lose the confidence of people, lose support, and fail the country because they are barking up the wrong tree. And then a worse Tory party will succeed in the future. Its lose lose.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

Here's the difference between you and Corbyn, & me and Starmer.

The importance you place on getting elected, as opposed to staying ideologically pure.

It always was the way with the Left. Impressing other people on the Left by never, ever compromising was always more important than actually taking power.

Always.

So when Keith gets elected, what then? Seriously, what's he going to do to make life better for you, me, and everyone else?

I think it is going to be a hard slog. But you start by moving in the right direction. You don't wave a wand and fix it.

It's taken a decade and a half for the calamity of Austerity to wreak its damage on our economy. Some of us were predicting that at the time, so forgive me if I've got zero patience with people who are now complaining that everything has gone to shit and that Labour won't be able to fix things overnight, but didn't listen back then. People both on the Right AND on the Left.

If we can have 15 years without the boneheadedly stupid mistakes of Austerity, Brexit and Trussonomics, we might be in a reasonable position by the back end of the next decade. Those who enabled those policies would do well to stop moaning and let the clear up begin.

[bpoolrover]

Albie.

Here's the difference between you and Corbyn, & me and Starmer.

The importance you place on getting elected, as opposed to staying ideologically pure.

It always was the way with the Left. Impressing other people on the Left by never, ever compromising was always more important than actually taking power.

Always.

So when Keith gets elected, what then? Seriously, what's he going to do to make life better for you, me, and everyone else?

I think it is going to be a hard slog. But you start by moving in the right direction. You don't wave a wand and fix it.

It's taken a decade and a half for the calamity of Austerity to wreak its damage on our economy. Some of us were predicting that at the time, so forgive me if I've got zero patience with people who are now complaining that everything has gone to shit and that Labour won't be able to fix things overnight, but didn't listen back then. People both on the Right AND on the Left.

If we can have 15 years without the boneheadedly stupid mistakes of Austerity, Brexit and Trussonomics, we might be in a reasonable position by the back end of the next decade. Those who enabled those policies would do well to stop moaning and let the clear up begin.

what do you actually think he will do over time to make us better off?

[SydneyRover]

Not be the tory party

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Not be the tory party

Is that it? Is that really the best the country can offer?

When I vote my priority is gonna be who's going to give my family the best life, couldn't care less who it is.

[SydneyRover]

Not be the tory party

Is that it? Is that really the best the country can offer?

When I vote my priority is gonna be who's going to give my family the best life, couldn't care less who it is.

As billy has said above 'it's a whole lot better than what has been delivered in the past 14 years'' pud.

You are welcome to defend the party you have steadfastly voted for and list all the successes.

edited

[SydneyRover]

I can see the headlines though .................

Friday, 6.00am, the day after ...... Daily Express headlines:

Labour win but have still done nothing about the NHS, Police, Education, Rail ...........

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

Here's the difference between you and Corbyn, & me and Starmer.

The importance you place on getting elected, as opposed to staying ideologically pure.

It always was the way with the Left. Impressing other people on the Left by never, ever compromising was always more important than actually taking power.

Always.

So when Keith gets elected, what then? Seriously, what's he going to do to make life better for you, me, and everyone else?

I think it is going to be a hard slog. But you start by moving in the right direction. You don't wave a wand and fix it.

It's taken a decade and a half for the calamity of Austerity to wreak its damage on our economy. Some of us were predicting that at the time, so forgive me if I've got zero patience with people who are now complaining that everything has gone to shit and that Labour won't be able to fix things overnight, but didn't listen back then. People both on the Right AND on the Left.

If we can have 15 years without the boneheadedly stupid mistakes of Austerity, Brexit and Trussonomics, we might be in a reasonable position by the back end of the next decade. Those who enabled those policies would do well to stop moaning and let the clear up begin.

what do you actually think he will do over time to make us better off?

For a start, Labour will have a Chancellor who actually understands how capitalist economies work, which is something we haven't had (with the partial exception of Phillip Howard) for the past 14 years.

Like I say, it'll be a slow, grinding slog. But there will not be the obsession with cutting Govt capital investment that has been so damaging over the span of the Tories' time in power.

What IS vital is that we get productivity increases. The collapse in productivity growth under the Tories is a national disaster that is never discussed. As a Nobel Prize winning economist said "Productivity isn't everything. But in the long run, it's almost everything."

If productivity doesn't increase, the total income of the country doesn't increase. Which, in practice, means real wages don't increase.

The single worst thing you can do to hammer productivity is to cut investment in new infrastructure.

Guess what the Tories cut hardest of all under Austerity.

Guess what has happened to productivity since then.

Go on. Have a guess.

We HAVE to start investing in infrastructure. Labour can't shout that out because the media is still stupidly obsessed with Govt debt and to argue that we should prioritise investment over debt would give the Tories a free punch. That's why Starmer and Reeves play it down (and the fools on the Left who don't worry about practicalities like actually getting elected scream about it).

But they WILL increase investment once elected. And, slowly, that will start to repair the damage of the past decade and a half.

But don't expect overnight miracles. Some of us have been pointing out the long, slow accumulated damage to the economy since Austerity. It will take as long and a lot of patience to put it right.

[bpoolrover]

Albie.

Here's the difference between you and Corbyn, & me and Starmer.

The importance you place on getting elected, as opposed to staying ideologically pure.

It always was the way with the Left. Impressing other people on the Left by never, ever compromising was always more important than actually taking power.

Always.

So when Keith gets elected, what then? Seriously, what's he going to do to make life better for you, me, and everyone else?

I think it is going to be a hard slog. But you start by moving in the right direction. You don't wave a wand and fix it.

It's taken a decade and a half for the calamity of Austerity to wreak its damage on our economy. Some of us were predicting that at the time, so forgive me if I've got zero patience with people who are now complaining that everything has gone to shit and that Labour won't be able to fix things overnight, but didn't listen back then. People both on the Right AND on the Left.

If we can have 15 years without the boneheadedly stupid mistakes of Austerity, Brexit and Trussonomics, we might be in a reasonable position by the back end of the next decade. Those who enabled those policies would do well to stop moaning and let the clear up begin.

what do you actually think he will do over time to make us better off?

For a start, Labour will have a Chancellor who actually understands how capitalist economies work, which is something we haven't had (with the partial exception of Phillip Howard) for the past 14 years.

Like I say, it'll be a slow, grinding slog. But there will not be the obsession with cutting Govt capital investment that has been so damaging over the span of the Tories' time in power.

What IS vital is that we get productivity increases. The collapse in productivity growth under the Tories is a national disaster that is never discussed. As a Nobel Prize winning economist said "Productivity isn't everything. But in the long run, it's almost everything."

If productivity doesn't increase, the total income of the country doesn't increase. Which, in practice, means real wages don't increase.

The single worst thing you can do to hammer productivity is to cut investment in new infrastructure.

Guess what the Tories cut hardest of all under Austerity.

Guess what has happened to productivity since then.

Go on. Have a guess.

We HAVE to start investing in infrastructure. Labour can't shout that out because the media is still stupidly obsessed with Govt debt and to argue that we should prioritise investment over debt would give the Tories a free punch. That's why Starmer and Reeves play it down (and the fools on the Left who don't worry about practicalities like actually getting elected scream about it).

But they WILL increase investment once elected. And, slowly, that will start to repair the damage of the past decade and a half.

But don't expect overnight miracles. Some of us have been pointing out the long, slow accumulated damage to the economy since Austerity. It will take as long and a lot of patience to put it right.

thank you for the reply, realistically you will not get 14 years to make it right thou, labour have said how they will give a fair wage, make the poorer family's better off, people wont wait that long they will want action pretty much straight away

[SydneyRover]

People have waited 14-15 years for action already, must be different with labour gov' in power?

[bpoolrover]

People have waited 14-15 years for action already, must be different with labour gov' in power?

until now they had no choice really, there wasnt a chance corbyn would get in

[SydneyRover]

Let me have a stab (ahem) at the logic here:

Tories can make promises to do whatever (usually everything will be great) and then fail but give a new set of promises for the next tory government to get in and then fail again and a new set of promises for the next government to get in and then fail then another set of promises are produced to get in once again etc etc

But labour have to be perfect, do it straight away and still may get only one chance even though each time they get a chance they inherit an unholy mess.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

That's the problem with democracy then.

Folk have continued to elect the Tories who have made economically disastrous decisions at every step.

Now you're wanting Labour to get elected once and fix things immediately.

Do you see the problem.

[bpoolrover]

Bpool.

That's the problem with democracy then.

Folk have continued to elect the Tories who have made economically disastrous decisions at every step.

Now you're wanting Labour to get elected once and fix things immediately.

Do you see the problem.

you basically said it will take 10 years plus to make it right, people are poor now and you have blamed the tories, what i am saying is the smae worse off people are not going to wait 10 years plus to be no better off are they? The lowest earners on working tax ext you could make far better off pretty much straight away

[SydneyRover]

How could you bp? please explain.

[SydneyRover]

This is only part of the problem you'll be up against wrestling with the answer bp

Shareholder pay-outs have soared £440bn above inflation since 2008, while wages have been squeezed, growing £510bn less than inflation

Analysis demonstrates that the UK economy has the capacity for wage increases that workers are being denied

Truss should crackdown down on shareholder pay-outs that deprive British industry of investment instead of pitching herself against workers, says TUC

https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/shareholder-pay-outs-growing-three-times-faster-wages-under-tories-tuc-analysis

Having a better working relationship with workers so that everyone floats on the same tide with gradual improvements in benefits to a greater number in the good times and sharing the load in the not so good times makes for a better country.

This cannot be changed overnight, especially as the rw media are shouting for tax cuts and welded on tories will vote for themselves.

It will be good to hear your answer bp.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool.

That's the problem with democracy then.

Folk have continued to elect the Tories who have made economically disastrous decisions at every step.

Now you're wanting Labour to get elected once and fix things immediately.

Do you see the problem.

you basically said it will take 10 years plus to make it right, people are poor now and you have blamed the tories, what i am saying is the smae worse off people are not going to wait 10 years plus to be no better off are they? The lowest earners on working tax ext you could make far better off pretty much straight away

Are you talking about the policy by Reform to massively increase the threshold at which people pay tax?

[ravenrover]

Goodness knows what the message left by the Chancellor will be if Labour win
There's nothing left and ypu now owe billions as well

[BillyStubbsTears]

The sheer brass neck of the Tories.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/07/keir-starmer-labour-spending-tax-inflation-debt/

This one was No10 Chief of Staff under May.

The Tories have given us the worst recovery from a recession since the Napoleonic Wars, the highest ever taxes in peacetime and a totally broken NHS[1].

But Starmer would be a disaster, eh?

[1] I'm sat waiting to see a specialist at the hospital. I was referred for this in October.

2022.

[bpoolrover]

This is only part of the problem you'll be up against wrestling with the answer bp

Shareholder pay-outs have soared £440bn above inflation since 2008, while wages have been squeezed, growing £510bn less than inflation

Analysis demonstrates that the UK economy has the capacity for wage increases that workers are being denied

Truss should crackdown down on shareholder pay-outs that deprive British industry of investment instead of pitching herself against workers, says TUC

https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/shareholder-pay-outs-growing-three-times-faster-wages-under-tories-tuc-analysis

Having a better working relationship with workers so that everyone floats on the same tide with gradual improvements in benefits to a greater number in the good times and sharing the load in the not so good times makes for a better country.

This cannot be changed overnight, especially as the rw media are shouting for tax cuts and welded on tories will vote for themselves.

It will be good to hear your answer bp.

labour will answer for me hopefully syd, on this forum for the last 13 or 14 years some people have been telling us how things would be so much better under labour, i for one will give them my vote this time and we will see

[bpoolrover]

To make working people on benefits better off all you have to do is let them earn more before taking money off them pound for pound, at the minute you cam pay someome 18 pound a hour and if there they claim working family tax or universal credit they wont be much if any better off than getting 10 pound a hour if they work say 24 hours

[Ldr]

Income tax should apply to anyone with British citizenship wherever they reside. If you are not happy to contribute to this country you should give up citizenship of it

[ravenrover]

So all the MPs who have now got Irish passports don't have to pay tax?

[Ldr]

So all the MPs who have now got Irish passports don't have to pay tax?

Read what I put