Labour U Turns Part 164

[SydneyRover]

Follow the corporate money:
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2023/12/labour-for-sale/

Who pays the piper, eh!

If only we'd ever tried a genuine left wing approach eh? That might have worked.

Don't come sqeeling Billy about the far right gathering pace when a Labour government just accepts the status quo .

The far right will eat you for breakfast , dinner and tea .

A bit hypocritical tyke when you promote and vote with the far right aye?

You've been playing with a busted flush for too long tyke, the only person that appears not to know is yourself.

Not as much as emigrating to a right wing country with some of the toughest immigration laws on the planet that voted not to give it's First People a voice in parliament .

Corby corbyn corbyn corbyn lefl left left far left oops far right.

[drfchound]

Follow the corporate money:
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2023/12/labour-for-sale/

Who pays the piper, eh!

If only we'd ever tried a genuine left wing approach eh? That might have worked.

Don't come sqeeling Billy about the far right gathering pace when a Labour government just accepts the status quo .

The far right will eat you for breakfast , dinner and tea .

A bit hypocritical tyke when you promote and vote with the far right aye?

You've been playing with a busted flush for too long tyke, the only person that appears not to know is yourself.

Not as much as emigrating to a right wing country with some of the toughest immigration laws on the planet that voted not to give it's First People a voice in parliament .

Corby corbyn corbyn corbyn lefl left left far left oops far right.

Anyone got a clue?
No, me neither.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The danger of Fosters.

[scawsby steve]

Sydney, for f*ck's sake take another sabbatical.

You're embarrassing yourself.

[albie]

Follow the corporate money:
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2023/12/labour-for-sale/

Who pays the piper, eh!

If only we'd ever tried a genuine left wing approach eh? That might have worked.

But that is not what the article says, is it BST?

You might have missed this in your new found enthusiasm for austerity under Rachel;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/labour-city-banks-finance-2m-donations-bankers-bonuses-u-turn-rachel-reeves/

[MachoMadness]

MM

I don't know if you are old enough to have been politically aware in the mid 90s.

If you are, you'll remember that exactly the same criticisms were fired at Blair/Brown.

Their Governments produced.

A decade of unprecedentedly low inflation and unemployment.

A huge increase in funding for the regions, for state education and the NHS.

The Good Friday Agreement.

Same sex marriages.

A huge reduction in child poverty.

The almost elimination of street sleeping and dozens of other, mostly incremental but collectively significant moves leftwards.

And when the crunch came, Brown gave world leadership in preventing a second Great Depression.

The Left called them Red Tories.

Blair didn't come from nowhere. He was a reaction to the calamity of the Bennites taking over the party and making them unelectable.

The Left sat on the sidelines sniping and complaining that he wasn't what they wanted. People in here who claim to be left wing voted against Brown in 2010 because, apparently, he was no better than having the Tories in power.

Did I uncritically support those Governments? Nope. I railed against Blair because he wasn't as radical as I wanted. But I'll tell you this. I'd have taken 1 Blair over a hundred Benns and Foots.

And today, I have all sorts of criticisms of Starmer. But I'd take one of him over 100 Corbyns.

This is a once in a generation chance to isolate the Tories, leave them to rip themselves apart and let Labour get on with the 2 decade job of repairing the damage of the last 14 years. You don't do that by being as radical as you want. You do it by making Labour the natural home to swing voters, who are going to have a choice between a limited Labour party and a batshit far right Tory one.

You may prefer ideological purity and Opposition. You may want someone to tip the system on its head. You had that from 15-19. Fat lot of f**king good it did. Your call.

I was 7 years old when Blair was elected. And while I have some sharp criticisms I've never denied that his Labour did a lot of good. I got to go to university heavily subsidised by grants because of my family's low income. If I had grown up under this Tory government, I'd never have had that chance. My first ever vote in a GE was for Gordon Brown's Labour. I voted for Starmer for leader for crying out loud!

You appear to have this myopic view of the left, where everything is filtered through the lens of 1997. I've explained before that I have a very real fear that an ineffectual Labour government opens the door for a radical far right Tory government. You say that you said the same thing before Blair swept to power, but I think expecting the same again is one hell of an assumption to make. This doesn't engage with how different things are now. The far right is emboldened like never before. It skips social media and the explosion of the internet entirely, and all that social change that came with it, and the radicalising potential of it.

This morning, Labour has U-turned on their green energy pledge. So we're going to have a government that promises no investment, no redistribution of wealth, no progress on clean energy, and no protection for vulnerable people. They're offering nothing except vague managerialism. So where is this growth going to come from, then? After five years of that, you are practically begging for an authoritarian strongman/woman Tory leader to come in and offer real change. Meanwhile Labour will still be running focus groups while the planet burns to death.

[tyke1962]

What we have in the political class and Labour are absolutely no exception is a bunch of " where the wind blows strongest " brigade .

This political class have no backbone and masquerade as a flock of sheep .

The fact that a number of Labour supporters are hanging their hat on " jam tomorrow " and get moist about 1997 which may as well be 100 years ago for what relevance it is today .

Catching the wind that blows strongest suggests no real political convictions , ideas , principles or actually any self respect and minerals .

At least the witch had an abundance of what it took , I'll give her that .

Most of these weasels make me physically sick to look at and that's across the political spectrum .

[Iberian Red]

What we have in the political class and Labour are absolutely no exception is a bunch of " where the wind blows strongest " brigade .

This political class have no backbone and masquerade as a flock of sheep .

The fact that a number of Labour supporters are hanging their hat on " jam tomorrow " and get moist about 1997 which may as well be 100 years ago for what relevance it is today .

Catching the wind that blows strongest suggests no real political convictions , ideas , principles or actually any self respect and minerals .

At least the witch had an abundance of what it took , I'll give her that .

Most of these weasels make me physically sick to look at and that's across the political spectrum .

Tyke,sorry.
That's pure waffle.
It's like the editorial of the worst editorial of the Daily Mail.
Did Barnsley fans tell you to do one and post on another forum?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Aye. Useless this Labour lot that concentrate on actually getting elected. What have they ever done for the working man eh?

Unlike Benn and Foot and Scargill and Corbyn, eh? All true to their principles and steadfast supporters of the common man. They are the sort you want in charge of the Labour movement. People who make you feel good about your principles while achieving f**k all.

This is what the Left has always been. Certain they are right, and bewildered when only 20% of the public agree with them. Thinking politics is a romantic crusade, when what it actually demands above and beyond everything else is making sure you win before you can do anything.

You'd rather a compromise Labour lose and watch the Tories scrape back in, than support people who, once in power, might actually help you.

You don't get it because you're determined, as the Left always has been, to see the grubby, dirty process of actually winning power as a betrayal. If you can't have someone in opposition making you personally feel they agree with exactly what you want, you'll chuck your tits out of the pram.

You just said Thatcher had resolve. That shows how little you know of the art of gaining power. Let me give you one little example.

In 1979, right wing economists were saying the Tories should commit to doubling VAT if they won. Labour went to town trying to pin that policy on Thatcher. Sheffield vehemently denied that she planned to double VAT.

Do you know what she did after she won? Increased VAT from 8% to 15% after the election. Because once you've won, you can then do what you believe to be right, and if you're clever, you can do it in a way that means you haven't lied.

There's a whole bunch of Left whiners currently screaming at Starmer for rescinding the commitment to spend £28bn on green policies. They want that commitment because it's what they believe.

What never dawns on them is that Sunak wants that commitment from Labour even more. Because it gives him a chance to paint Labour as fiscally irresponsible. Doesn't matter if that is fair or not. It's worked for them for 15 years and they would hammer that line day and night in an election campaign.

Labour have just taken away that attack line. When they win in the Autumn, that doesn't mean they WON'T invest heavily in the green economy. But it does hamper the Tory campaign.

That's what people on the Left don't get. They are ideological dreamers who think if you campaign on the right things, everyone will agree with you and vote for you. They don't get the dirty reality of real campaigning. Or the fact that you have to win first.

[SydneyRover]

What we have in the political class and Labour are absolutely no exception is a bunch of " where the wind blows strongest " brigade .

This political class have no backbone and masquerade as a flock of sheep .

The fact that a number of Labour supporters are hanging their hat on " jam tomorrow " and get moist about 1997 which may as well be 100 years ago for what relevance it is today .

Catching the wind that blows strongest suggests no real political convictions , ideas , principles or actually any self respect and minerals .

At least the witch had an abundance of what it took , I'll give her that .

Most of these weasels make me physically sick to look at and that's across the political spectrum .

Tyke,sorry.
That's pure waffle.
It's like the editorial of the worst editorial of the Daily Mail.
Did Barnsley fans tell you to do one and post on another forum?

I think the situation has to be carefully managed IR, we shouldn’t drive him out back into the arms of those that find his views acceptable, he obviously spends a lot time with kindred spirits. The more time he spends here where his nonsense is challenged, where he only gets likes rather than solid written agreement the better. (snigger)

[tyke1962]

What we have in the political class and Labour are absolutely no exception is a bunch of " where the wind blows strongest " brigade .

This political class have no backbone and masquerade as a flock of sheep .

The fact that a number of Labour supporters are hanging their hat on " jam tomorrow " and get moist about 1997 which may as well be 100 years ago for what relevance it is today .

Catching the wind that blows strongest suggests no real political convictions , ideas , principles or actually any self respect and minerals .

At least the witch had an abundance of what it took , I'll give her that .

Most of these weasels make me physically sick to look at and that's across the political spectrum .

Tyke,sorry.
That's pure waffle.
It's like the editorial of the worst editorial of the Daily Mail.
Did Barnsley fans tell you to do one and post on another forum?

I think the situation has to be carefully managed IR, we shouldn’t drive him out back into the arms of those that find his views acceptable, he obviously spends a lot time with kindred spirits. The more time he spends here where his nonsense is challenged, where he only gets likes rather than solid written agreement the better. (snigger)

So why didn't you challenge the points I made about Gaza and the Palestinians instead of finding some study that condemned the town of Barnsley as a racist breeding ground ?

[Sprotyrover]

What we have in the political class and Labour are absolutely no exception is a bunch of " where the wind blows strongest " brigade .

This political class have no backbone and masquerade as a flock of sheep .

The fact that a number of Labour supporters are hanging their hat on " jam tomorrow " and get moist about 1997 which may as well be 100 years ago for what relevance it is today .

Catching the wind that blows strongest suggests no real political convictions , ideas , principles or actually any self respect and minerals .

At least the witch had an abundance of what it took , I'll give her that .

Most of these weasels make me physically sick to look at and that's across the political spectrum .

Tyke,sorry.
That's pure waffle.
It's like the editorial of the worst editorial of the Daily Mail.
Did Barnsley fans tell you to do one and post on another forum?

I think the situation has to be carefully managed IR, we shouldn’t drive him out back into the arms of those that find his views acceptable, he obviously spends a lot time with kindred spirits. The more time he spends here where his nonsense is challenged, where he only gets likes rather than solid written agreement the better. (snigger)

So why didn't you challenge the points I made about Gaza and the Palestinians instead of finding some study that condemned the town of Barnsley as a racist breeding ground ?

Because he is an Idiot!

[SydneyRover]

sprot

;;Oh dear how sad , never mind My heart bleeds for
The libertarians who voted for Brexit all 5 of them!
Definition of a Libertine “ a person, especially a man, who freely indulges in sensual pleasures without regard to moral principles:

[Bristol Red Rover]

Tyke.

Aye. Useless this Labour lot that concentrate on actually getting elected. What have they ever done for the working man eh?

Unlike Benn and Foot and Scargill and Corbyn, eh? All true to their principles and steadfast supporters of the common man. They are the sort you want in charge of the Labour movement. People who make you feel good about your principles while achieving f**k all.

This is what the Left has always been. Certain they are right, and bewildered when only 20% of the public agree with them. Thinking politics is a romantic crusade, when what it actually demands above and beyond everything else is making sure you win before you can do anything.

You'd rather a compromise Labour lose and watch the Tories scrape back in, than support people who, once in power, might actually help you.

You don't get it because you're determined, as the Left always has been, to see the grubby, dirty process of actually winning power as a betrayal. If you can't have someone in opposition making you personally feel they agree with exactly what you want, you'll chuck your tits out of the pram.

You just said Thatcher had resolve. That shows how little you know of the art of gaining power. Let me give you one little example.

In 1979, right wing economists were saying the Tories should commit to doubling VAT if they won. Labour went to town trying to pin that policy on Thatcher. Sheffield vehemently denied that she planned to double VAT.

Do you know what she did after she won? Increased VAT from 8% to 15% after the election. Because once you've won, you can then do what you believe to be right, and if you're clever, you can do it in a way that means you haven't lied.

There's a whole bunch of Left whiners currently screaming at Starmer for rescinding the commitment to spend £28bn on green policies. They want that commitment because it's what they believe.

What never dawns on them is that Sunak wants that commitment from Labour even more. Because it gives him a chance to paint Labour as fiscally irresponsible. Doesn't matter if that is fair or not. It's worked for them for 15 years and they would hammer that line day and night in an election campaign.

Labour have just taken away that attack line. When they win in the Autumn, that doesn't mean they WON'T invest heavily in the green economy. But it does hamper the Tory campaign.

That's what people on the Left don't get. They are ideological dreamers who think if you campaign on the right things, everyone will agree with you and vote for you. They don't get the dirty reality of real campaigning. Or the fact that you have to win first.

Is BST assuring us that Labour will turn when they are elected? Any policies you think are first in line for that turn? Any that aren't?

[Iberian Red]

Tyke.

Aye. Useless this Labour lot that concentrate on actually getting elected. What have they ever done for the working man eh?

Unlike Benn and Foot and Scargill and Corbyn, eh? All true to their principles and steadfast supporters of the common man. They are the sort you want in charge of the Labour movement. People who make you feel good about your principles while achieving f**k all.

This is what the Left has always been. Certain they are right, and bewildered when only 20% of the public agree with them. Thinking politics is a romantic crusade, when what it actually demands above and beyond everything else is making sure you win before you can do anything.

You'd rather a compromise Labour lose and watch the Tories scrape back in, than support people who, once in power, might actually help you.

You don't get it because you're determined, as the Left always has been, to see the grubby, dirty process of actually winning power as a betrayal. If you can't have someone in opposition making you personally feel they agree with exactly what you want, you'll chuck your tits out of the pram.

You just said Thatcher had resolve. That shows how little you know of the art of gaining power. Let me give you one little example.

In 1979, right wing economists were saying the Tories should commit to doubling VAT if they won. Labour went to town trying to pin that policy on Thatcher. Sheffield vehemently denied that she planned to double VAT.

Do you know what she did after she won? Increased VAT from 8% to 15% after the election. Because once you've won, you can then do what you believe to be right, and if you're clever, you can do it in a way that means you haven't lied.

There's a whole bunch of Left whiners currently screaming at Starmer for rescinding the commitment to spend £28bn on green policies. They want that commitment because it's what they believe.

What never dawns on them is that Sunak wants that commitment from Labour even more. Because it gives him a chance to paint Labour as fiscally irresponsible. Doesn't matter if that is fair or not. It's worked for them for 15 years and they would hammer that line day and night in an election campaign.

Labour have just taken away that attack line. When they win in the Autumn, that doesn't mean they WON'T invest heavily in the green economy. But it does hamper the Tory campaign.

That's what people on the Left don't get. They are ideological dreamers who think if you campaign on the right things, everyone will agree with you and vote for you. They don't get the dirty reality of real campaigning. Or the fact that you have to win first.

Is BST assuring us that Labour will turn when they are elected? Any policies you think are first in line for that turn? Any that aren't?

Hopefully bomb the Kremlin first, then string up UK useful idiots by their gonads.
That would be a real vote winner

[Bristol Red Rover]

And you'd be dead. Is tbat what you're voting for? Maybe just phone the Samaritans rather than wiping out the human race. Just a thought.

[roverstillidie91]

Tyke.

Aye. Useless this Labour lot that concentrate on actually getting elected. What have they ever done for the working man eh?

Unlike Benn and Foot and Scargill and Corbyn, eh? All true to their principles and steadfast supporters of the common man. They are the sort you want in charge of the Labour movement. People who make you feel good about your principles while achieving f**k all.

This is what the Left has always been. Certain they are right, and bewildered when only 20% of the public agree with them. Thinking politics is a romantic crusade, when what it actually demands above and beyond everything else is making sure you win before you can do anything.

You'd rather a compromise Labour lose and watch the Tories scrape back in, than support people who, once in power, might actually help you.

You don't get it because you're determined, as the Left always has been, to see the grubby, dirty process of actually winning power as a betrayal. If you can't have someone in opposition making you personally feel they agree with exactly what you want, you'll chuck your tits out of the pram.

You just said Thatcher had resolve. That shows how little you know of the art of gaining power. Let me give you one little example.

In 1979, right wing economists were saying the Tories should commit to doubling VAT if they won. Labour went to town trying to pin that policy on Thatcher. Sheffield vehemently denied that she planned to double VAT.

Do you know what she did after she won? Increased VAT from 8% to 15% after the election. Because once you've won, you can then do what you believe to be right, and if you're clever, you can do it in a way that means you haven't lied.

There's a whole bunch of Left whiners currently screaming at Starmer for rescinding the commitment to spend £28bn on green policies. They want that commitment because it's what they believe.

What never dawns on them is that Sunak wants that commitment from Labour even more. Because it gives him a chance to paint Labour as fiscally irresponsible. Doesn't matter if that is fair or not. It's worked for them for 15 years and they would hammer that line day and night in an election campaign.

Labour have just taken away that attack line. When they win in the Autumn, that doesn't mean they WON'T invest heavily in the green economy. But it does hamper the Tory campaign.

That's what people on the Left don't get. They are ideological dreamers who think if you campaign on the right things, everyone will agree with you and vote for you. They don't get the dirty reality of real campaigning. Or the fact that you have to win first.

I still believe Labour should reaffirm their commitment to proportional representation as the FPTP system is out dated. Does any other country in the world even have this?

A coalition government with say the green party not Reform of course (tory 2.0) where they can be held to account on their decision making.

If Labour aren't successful you could potentially see them go the same way at the Tories and the further down the age brackets you go people are not voting for Labour or Conservatives.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting to see them say they're still going to ban zero hours contracts. Why do their councils still use them then like here?

Can't link to it but Doncaster council are advertising zero hours cleaners at the council even today.

[SydneyRover]

Interesting to see them say they're still going to ban zero hours contracts. Why do their councils still use them then like here?

Can't link to it but Doncaster council are advertising zero hours cleaners at the council even today.

Possibly because of 14 years of defunding has made it difficult to balance the books pud, but you'd know that. Still it's no excuse but you also know that what happens at council level is different to central government. This is I hope something labour will follow through with all the same.

[Sprotyrover]

Interesting to see them say they're still going to ban zero hours contracts. Why do their councils still use them then like here?

Can't link to it but Doncaster council are advertising zero hours cleaners at the council even today.

Possibly because of 14 years of defunding has made it difficult to balance the books pud, but you'd know that. Still it's no excuse but you also know that what happens at council level is different to central government. This is I hope something labour will follow through with all the same.

You already have a Labour Gy…enjoy!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting to see them say they're still going to ban zero hours contracts. Why do their councils still use them then like here?

Can't link to it but Doncaster council are advertising zero hours cleaners at the council even today.

Possibly because of 14 years of defunding has made it difficult to balance the books pud, but you'd know that. Still it's no excuse but you also know that what happens at council level is different to central government. This is I hope something labour will follow through with all the same.

If they believed it that much they would not do it, end of story.

[SydneyRover]

As you're also aware they can only work with what's left of the economy, how's that going by-the-way?

[tyke1962]

Labour's Bungs To Bankers & Corporations , just have a butchers at the hypocrisy going on here .

https://youtu.be/lN9-m-m7cno?si=5jGK_UvdI26Ud5Sg

[albie]

Starmer’s party has axed proposals to scrap the upper house in a first five-year parliament and would instead implement only limited reforms to the HoL.

Private Eye summary of the cash casino in Labour under Keith and Rachel;
https://nitter.1d4.us/pic/orig/enc/bWVkaWEvR0ZXUTI5Wlh3QUFiMF9LLmpwZw==

Don't frighten the horses, Keith.

[SydneyRover]

Good to see you finally get it Albie, it's been a long haul getting you this far.

[SydneyRover]

Interesting to see them say they're still going to ban zero hours contracts. Why do their councils still use them then like here?

Can't link to it but Doncaster council are advertising zero hours cleaners at the council even today.

Possibly because of 14 years of defunding has made it difficult to balance the books pud, but you'd know that. Still it's no excuse but you also know that what happens at council level is different to central government. This is I hope something labour will follow through with all the same.

If they believed it that much they would not do it, end of story.

While on the subject of government (rather than opposition) have you asked your government to stop zero hours contracts pud?

Supplementary question, what do you think of the proposed tax cuts that are being bandied about, would you prefer the money to be invested for growth instead, that's what many influential economists are saying?

[drfchound]

Interesting to see them say they're still going to ban zero hours contracts. Why do their councils still use them then like here?

Can't link to it but Doncaster council are advertising zero hours cleaners at the council even today.

Possibly because of 14 years of defunding has made it difficult to balance the books pud, but you'd know that. Still it's no excuse but you also know that what happens at council level is different to central government. This is I hope something labour will follow through with all the same.

If they believed it that much they would not do it, end of story.

While on the subject of government (rather than opposition) have you asked your government to stop zero hours contracts pud?

Supplementary question, what do you think of the proposed tax cuts that are being bandied about, would you prefer the money to be invested for growth instead, that's what many influential economists are saying?

Have you got a link Syd to the tax cuts that are being “bandied about”.
What are your thoughts on Reeves not reintroducing the bonus caps for bankers when Labour win the GE.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting to see them say they're still going to ban zero hours contracts. Why do their councils still use them then like here?

Can't link to it but Doncaster council are advertising zero hours cleaners at the council even today.

Possibly because of 14 years of defunding has made it difficult to balance the books pud, but you'd know that. Still it's no excuse but you also know that what happens at council level is different to central government. This is I hope something labour will follow through with all the same.

If they believed it that much they would not do it, end of story.

While on the subject of government (rather than opposition) have you asked your government to stop zero hours contracts pud?

Supplementary question, what do you think of the proposed tax cuts that are being bandied about, would you prefer the money to be invested for growth instead, that's what many influential economists are saying?

No, I don't want to see an end to zero hours contracts so why would I?  Just regulate them better.

What are the tax cuts? I don't believe any are announced. The only one they've pretty much confirmed will change is the god awful child benefit 'high earner' tax that is very much overdue a change.

[SydneyRover]

Interesting to see them say they're still going to ban zero hours contracts. Why do their councils still use them then like here?

Can't link to it but Doncaster council are advertising zero hours cleaners at the council even today.

Possibly because of 14 years of defunding has made it difficult to balance the books pud, but you'd know that. Still it's no excuse but you also know that what happens at council level is different to central government. This is I hope something labour will follow through with all the same.

If they believed it that much they would not do it, end of story.

While on the subject of government (rather than opposition) have you asked your government to stop zero hours contracts pud?

Supplementary question, what do you think of the proposed tax cuts that are being bandied about, would you prefer the money to be invested for growth instead, that's what many influential economists are saying?

No, I don't want to see an end to zero hours contracts so why would I?  Just regulate them better.

What are the tax cuts? I don't believe any are announced. The only one they've pretty much confirmed will change is the god awful child benefit 'high earner' tax that is very much overdue a change.

I wonder why hunt has been talking tax cuts up then, It's a bit weird if you can't believe what the government says?

''Chancellor Jeremy Hunt hints at further tax cuts''

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68027060

[albie]

Labour are not proposing to end zero hours contracts, the current position is "reform" for the most exploitative.

This needs to be seen in the context of trade union action, or lack of it.
Here is a summary;
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2023/12/starmers-worst-u-turn-workers-rights-trade-unions

So if you are a trade unionist and support workers rights, you have to consider if Keith is going to meet your needs....assuming you believe him, of course, because he lies like a rug.